Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Jasonsdman]

The words "fake", "clone", and "copy" all carry a negative connotation. The legality of such knifes existing is questionable at best. So in a hobby such as this, where originality means a lot, nobody really wants to support companies known for such things. The people who feel like they need to own and use such things do so at their own discretion, but they should also understand that it is not the right thing to do in many people's mind.

 

[craytab]

Actually, this seems to indicate that the patent has a re-issue date of 4/27/2010 so the Axis may still be protected.
http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair
I give up. Just buy legit knives.

And there is that wonderful website :barf:

But yes, that is what I see as well and in my opinion it is good until 2030. Like I said though, we will never know until it is tested in court.

 

[jasonbroni]

Why do so many people here like the sanremnu 710 then when it is clearly a sebenza bite? (Not trying to stir the pot - just asking)

 

[davek14]

But yes, that is what I see as well and in my opinion it is good until 2030. Like I said though, we will never know until it is tested in court.

Wow, so they would have sole use of that design for, what, 34 years?

 

[Hackenslash]

Why do so many people here like the sanremnu 710 then when it is clearly a sebenza bite? (Not trying to stir the pot - just asking)

I think the SRM 710/7010 falls more into the "Idea User" category that the OP mentioned; knives that are clearly inspired in form or function by another, pre-existing knife. People tend to be a little more forgiving about that. There are many custom and high dollar mid-tech knives that appear to be "Idea Users". To a certain extent you could label many mainstream production knives as "Idea Users". Truly original knife concepts are few and far between, and those often win awards like the Lionsteel TRE and the CRKT Homefront (and the Sebenza, for that matter). Yes, when you look at the SRM it's clear what knife inspired it, but there are also differences (some slight) in blade profile and handle shape. I'm not giving SRM a pass, but the 710/7010 is a little bit of a grey zone by my judgement.

I think many people also consider the 710/7010, though clearly made and inspired by the CRK Sebenza, doesn't pose a serious threat to Sebenza sales. If SRM began to offer a 710/7010 with Ti scales, wood inlay and S35VN blade steel for $200, I think that would change the game a bit. At $10, not a blatant copy, clearly labeled as an SRM product, it doesn't seem to be in the same category as Ganzo or the counterfeits on the LiarExpress site.

Personally, I don't recommend SRM knives. Not because of counterfeiting but because of practicality. If you can find $10 for a knife, you can find $20. Save your money and buy a Kershaw (or similar) that you know spawns from a legit design and comes with reliable service and support.

 

[craytab]

Wow, so they would have sole use of that design for, what, 34 years?

Gosh forbid a company have sole use of a design they come up with. But no, it isn't even Benchmade's. They license it. Any company can license it if they can convince Mchenry & Williams to do so. Licensing designs or giving credit to the OM is what legit companies do....

 

[BBuser]

You can see the height of illegality if you go to an auction site and search sebenza clone. They go beyond clone to pure counterfeit. Even stamping logo and Idaho made. They include CR stamped box and papers as well.

Plenty of stores have been raided for selling counterfeit designer goods. How does big auction site slide by?

I think it reduces the value of the legitimate products if buyers fear being fooled.

 

[wilsonj1018]

ok i actually took the time to research these ganzo knives today, and now i see why most have a problem with them. WOW some of their designs are 100% stolen from knives that are still in production, the one that actually pissed me off is the Warren Osborne designed rift clone. so i kinda get it now, why you guys would be so hostile towards this, that said i still dont think its right to bash people that buy them. so ill retract my previous defense and vote to hell with ganzo.

 

[davek14]

Wow, so they would have sole use of that design for, what, 34 years?

Gosh forbid a company have sole use of a design they come up with. But no, it isn't even Benchmade's. They license it. .

I'm aware of Mchenry and Williams. I guess I'm just saying that once you get to a point where you need a team of lawyers to know if a patent is expired and it seems to go on indefinitely you are looking at morality and inspiring innovation in your rear view mirror.

 

[craytab]

I'm aware of Mchenry and Williams. I guess I'm just saying that once you get to a point where you need a team of lawyers to know if a patent is expired and it seems to go on indefinitely you are looking at morality and inspiring innovation in your rear view mirror.

The Axis Lock Patent has not stopped legit companies from coming up with their own versions that are different enough. The Axis lock patent has not stifled innovation IMO.

 

[Impulse600]

Yes it is.

 

[davek14]

The Axis Lock Patent has not stopped legit companies from coming up with their own versions that are different enough. The Axis lock patent has not stifled innovation IMO.

The point of a patent is for the inventor of the design to have sole use for a period of time as a reward for his innovation, then expire so the knowledge is public domain. Which then inspires more innovation.

 

[Paul_Atreides]

I hate fakes or anything that fools people into thinking they are buying the real thing.

I would say this comment just about generally sums up my attitude towards the OP's topic of discussion as well.

 

[JR88FAN]

Fakes vs clones vs copies?

They fall into the same basket. The only thing that truly seperates them is your desire to legitimize the purchase of something that you know is making money off of the direct work of someone else.

 

[Seneca18]

The point of a patent is for the inventor of the design to have sole use for a period of time as a reward for his innovation, then expire so the knowledge is public domain. Which then inspires more innovation.

Inspire more innovation? That's about as far from what is happening in this case as possible, Ganzo rips off more than just the Axis lock, they take entire knife designs and stick their name on it. That's not innovating.

 

[davek14]

Inspire more innovation? That's about as far from what is happening in this case as possible, Ganzo rips off more than just the Axis lock, they take entire knife designs and stick their name on it. That's not innovating.

I never mentioned Ganzo.

 

[bdmicarta]

I understand the objection to clones and copies, but in some ways the barn doors have been open for a long time.

I'll propose a few knife designs- the Loveless style hunter, the Randall #1, and the Kabar military knife. There are a lot of custom makers that make knives that look like the Loveless hunter. I think I have 3 of them by different makers. I see various Loveless styles for sale on this forum, and they don't get criticism, they get praise. Also there are a lot of manufacturers that make knives that look like the Randall #1 and the Kabar. Where is the outcry over this.

I realize this is a knife forum but for a minute consider the Rolex Submariner watch. Almost every big watch company has made a model that looks like the Rolex sub. I don't see any outcry over this either. In the watch collector world, these are not called copies, they are called "homages".

I don't know what the answer is, but if we are going to complain about copies then we have to be consistent about it.

 

[Sirryacus]

I'm not passing any moral judgment on others, personally I'm not interested in owning any homage , fake , clone type knives.

So you are against any kind of commemorative reissue of a knife that is no longer produced?

 

[NJBillK]

So you are against any kind of commemorative reissue of a knife that is no longer produced?

If it is not what would be considered "Rightfully Produced" by the original creator (or current owner) with their consent, Yes.

To be honest, if You personally made a knife, someone else copied it, sold it and donated all of the proceeds to you, I would Still be against it.

I don't care where the money goes, it is the mindset behind the person thinking that it is "OK" without being told it was.

 

[mtangent]

The point of a patent is for the inventor of the design to have sole use for a period of time as a reward for his innovation, then expire so the knowledge is public domain. Which then inspires more innovation.

Not so much sole use, as sole benefit. The patent holder can choose to allow licensing of identical or similar designs. He still benefits, & the other guys legally can follow their plan. The patent holder could refuse this, though.

Where it really goes wrong is if somebody patents an idea for what turns out to be a great general platform, even though they only produce a very specific item. The patent holder can stop a huge amount of innovation in general, by refusing to license the design.

As a hypothetical example, suppose 150 yrs ago somebody had patented a garden trolley design that had 4 wheels, instead of 2 or 3. The patent award covered details of design like the chassis the wheels attached to. If patents lasted 50 or 100 yrs, a patent like that may have stopped the development of the automobile. This is what the time limit is designed to stop.