Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Cursum Perficio]

Looks like we're just about at the point where people exchange supposed geographic locations and arrange a duel that never materializes.

SAK's at 20 paces. En Garde!

 

[stabman]

SAK's at 20 paces. En Garde!

That's what the awl is really for, settling matters of honour.

 

[OnceBitten]

Support local business because it's local not because it's good.

I would have addressed other comments before this, but....a have so very little time, of late.

I hope you're not one of those types that says "All of our jobs are going to China, India, Mexico", etc.

I'm Canadian.

I support American knifemakers. When I don't buy American-made, I buy Canadian.

My only exception is Japanese-made Spydercos (I wish that all of my favoUrites were produced in Golden....they ARE better). I prefer my money to stay in North America.

If you're not part of The Solution, you are part of The Problem.

There is no "well...a little bit is okay".

You live in a Country of 300+ million people. How many does it take to make "a little" into "a lot"?

It all adds up.....and to millions of dollars per year. When and where do we draw the line?

It's up to you.


EDIT: I don't understand how "local" isn't "good", unless....

It's made cheaply, somewhere else.



.

 

[holdanedge]

I completely understand a heated debate. I do not understand how personal attacks further said debate. I was guilty of it myself but I shall refrain from doing it again. TBH, I just did it because everyone else was doing it. Still, no excuse on my part. This may be a touchy subject but it is the subject at hand. Not a question of morality. I did in fact mention an insult about others lifestyle. However it is just that, a lifestyle. Not really an insult in fact other than the way in which I used it. A lifestyle choice is not usually a crime. There is no reason to attack anyone based on their values. If one unwittingly purchases a "clone" that does not speak to their values. If an individual's every single possession if counterfeit then I guess that does speak to their morality. However how many people's every single possession is fake? How many people make an art of this. This topic is silly because you are all preaching to the choir. Hardly any of us here own fake knives. Continue the debate in futility but personal attacks are unwarranted. This is why I rarely visit here. It seems many folks here will go to any length to berate and tarnish anothers reputation. This is completely uncalled for. Please, discuss the topic at hand if you so wish. Please, do not attack each other personally. I wish you guy's would not. It would make this a much less hostile, more friendly environment. There is just no reason to do this among gentleman,,woman. Yet this continues on this forum year after year. I just do not see how a discussion of knives translates to a barrage of personal insults. I have most certainly been guilty of it as well but from now on I shall refrain. It makes things go much more smoothly. I doubt anyone will listen to me though. It is just ludicrous to attack each other on a personal level.

We here are all against fakes. That is a given. It seems, this and many others are threads solely to flame each other. It is ridiculous. Go hard on your stance of a subject but the personal attacks are completely unnecessary. This is why I am often scared to even come here. Previously I thought I had just posted a valid thread and I was berated to no end. Give peace a chance.

 

[Sirryacus]

I would have addressed other comments before this, but....a have so very little time, of late.

I hope you're not one of those types that says "All of our jobs are going to China, India, Mexico", etc.

I'm Canadian.

I support American knifemakers. When I don't buy American-made, I buy Canadian.

My only exception is Japanese-made Spydercos (I wish that all of my favoUrites were produced in Golden....they ARE better). I prefer my money to stay in North America.

If you're not part of The Solution, you are part of The Problem.

There is no "well...a little bit is okay".

You live in a Country of 300+ million people. How many does it take to make "a little" into "a lot"?

It all adds up.....and to millions of dollars per year. When and where do we draw the line?

It's up to you.


EDIT: I don't understand how "local" isn't "good", unless....

It's made cheaply, somewhere else.



.

I don't agree with such concepts as "if your not part of the solution your part of the problem" that's collective responsibility mumbo jumbo and I refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Hackenslash]

That's what the awl is really for, settling matters of honour.

I prefer to duel wield toothpick and tweezers. It's a deadly stab-pinch-stab attack. Especially at dawn with the rising sun in your opponent's eyes.

Ok, to sum up...

1. Clones, counterfeits and copies are bad, umkay?. They are ultimately a detriment to the industry along with being responsible for dead puppies. Even if there is no direct, traceable financial impact of a clone, we're left with obviously talented clone manufacturing facilities NOT moving the hobby forward with invention and design. We can all agree this can't be good.

2. Knives inspired by another knife may or may not be bad, depending on whether or not they add any innovation or design elements to the knife that was inspiring. Some styles (Barlow, Stockman, Peanut) are so iconic that the inventor is lost to history. Likewise a knife is composed of an end you hold and an end you cut with. There are not limitless combinations of those parts. Some resemblance from model to model is inevitable due to the structure of our hand and our opposed thumbs.

3. The copying of protected elements or features is bad unless the "copier" has been granted permission. Although US and international patent protection can't be extended to all localities, we have a level of responsibility as enthusiasts and citizens to obey the law even when unenforceable. Laws still exist even if there is no direct enforcement in your presence...

4. Support reputable dealers and manufacturers. I won't go so far as to say "local" as reputable can be found without geographic limitation. If you choose to support local due to geopolitical concerns, that's entirely your right and I commend you for your dedication to what you believe in.

5. Play well with each other. Share the graham crackers and grape juice. None of us are truly in a position to pass judgement on another based on posts on an online forum.

6. Enjoy your knives, enjoy talking about them, enjoy posting your experiences and sharing your knowledge.

I guess that about covers it...

 

[craytab]

This thread needs to be locked it shouldn't have went on this long, it's my not job to buy items I don't need to just so someone can have a job which seems to be the stance a lot of people take in "hobbies".

My point is a lot of these people act like you should support just because they are local not because they are good.

What does this have to do with this thread?

 

[jasonbroni]

I do not get why everyone needs to attack each other on this forum. Yes, I did too. Since people tend to defend themselves. Why does everyone here need to be so opinionated? This is why I have 165 posts here in 14 years. I just do not care for this atmosphere but I do enjoy collecting knives. Of all types and prices. I do agree counterfeit goods are generally shunned upon everywhere.

It's no where near 'everyone'. There are only 2 people (who I will not name) who I can't stand here, but they are extremely knowledgeable and I appreciate their knowledge. So just ignore the negativity and try to appreciate the vast free info... just my unsolicited advice.

 

[Sirryacus]

What does this have to do with this thread?

I'm not sure honestly, I apologize for my behavior last night, was in a bad mood and had a little too much to drink.

 

[NJBillK]

However you are missing my main point. Clones and copies are here to stay. Right or wrong. Why drive away members and potential members with verbal attacks over the clone/copy issue. Not everyone that owns one is dishonest or a thief.

While this may be true, I know that I will not (knowingly) support someone who commits fraud or theft (of idea or otherwise).
I have found that by sticking to this, I don't often worry about my goods nearly as much. If I do have a worry, I have an honest person that will likely help as opposed to hinder my positive view of said company.

Peace of mind is invaluable.

 

[craytab]

However you are missing my main point. Clones and copies are here to stay. Right or wrong. Why drive away members and potential members with verbal attacks over the clone/copy issue. Not everyone that owns one is dishonest or a thief.

Only people who can't understand the opinion of this forum regarding this issue get driven away, often after they have a meltdown on the subject. There are a bunch of places on the internet that are okay with counterfeits. They can go there.

How is this difficult to understand for people:

"Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98

Sorry if you don't like the opinion of this forum, but there it is. You can disagree with it all you want but it is the opinion of this forum that you are wrong.

 

[marcinek]

I do not get why everyone needs to attack each other on this forum. Yes, I did too. Since people tend to defend themselves. Why does everyone here need to be so opinionated? This is why I have 165 posts here in 14 years. I just do not care for this atmosphere but I do enjoy collecting knives. Of all types and prices. I do agree counterfeit goods are generally shunned upon everywhere.

Isn't that the whole point? The forum is for people passionate about knives. As craytab noted, if one wants to talk to people who don't really care too much about knives and the people who create them, then this isn't the place.

 

[sabre cat]

Only people who can't understand the opinion of this forum regarding this issue get driven away, often after they have a meltdown on the subject. There are a bunch of places on the internet that are okay with counterfeits. They can go there.

How is this difficult to understand for people:

"Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98

Sorry if you don't like the opinion of this forum, but there it is. You can disagree with it all you want but it is the opinion of this forum that you are wrong.

I am wrong? LOL. Tell me, Craytab, I'm just a little curious, just what do you think my stand is on the forum's rules about copies, clones, homages, fakes or counterfeits? Based upon your comments above, I question if you really understand my position. Care to respond?

 

[robgmn]

With the exception of the buck 110 most traditional patterns have been around for too long for anyone to know who came up with them and there's a kind of a limited number of patterns.
While I don't mind it with any knives it is a little different with modern folders as the possibilities are practically endless and there's no need to copy someone else's knife, especially when it's a relatively recent one. I don't mind copying another knife's style, but there's no real need to when modern knife design is basically play dough.

Which suggests there is no need to copy the 110 Style.
Yet it is done all day, every day.

As for the Axis lock: why are people still crying about it? The patent is expired. Over. Done.
Use the concept at will. Copy it exactly, or modify it.
And if you're not from the good old USA, the patent laws don't apply to you anyway.

 

[craytab]

Which suggests there is no need to copy the 110 Style.
Yet it is done all day, every day.

As for the Axis lock: why are people still crying about it? The patent is expired. Over. Done.
Use the concept at will. Copy it exactly, or modify it.
And if you're not from the good old USA, the patent laws don't apply to you anyway.

Not expired. Go to the patent office. There is one on file from 2010. Of course in all the threads where people proclaim their love of counterfeits we've covered this before....

 

[robgmn]

Not expired. Go to the patent office. There is one on file from 2010. Of course in all the threads where people proclaim their love of counterfeits we've covered this before....

Cover it again and explore the facts of the situation, if you consider such things important.

20 years is up, effective July 2016, and you don't get to renew your patent partway through the term. Once a patent is expired, you cannot renew, and it cannot be picked up and claimed by someone else. It becomes public domain.
If it's a "design patent", the term is actually only 14 years if filed prior to 2015 or 15 years if filed after 2015.

This particular patent wasn't even Benchmade's; they were just licensed to use the "technology" covered by it.


Publication number US5737841 A
Publication type Grant
Application number US 08/679,122
Publication date Apr 14, 1998
Filing date Jul 12, 1996
Priority date Jul 12, 1996
Fee status Paid
Inventors William J. McHenry, Jason L. Williams
Original Assignee Mchenry; William J., Williams; Jason L.

"A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, whichever expires later."
"once the monopoly granted by the patent expires, everyone is free to exploit the invention commercially."

 

[craytab]

Cover it again and explore the facts of the situation, if you consider such things important.

20 years is up, effective July 2016, and you don't get to renew your patent partway through the term. Once a patent is expired, you cannot renew, and it cannot be picked up and claimed by someone else. It becomes public domain.
If it's a "design patent", the term is actually only 14 years if filed prior to 2015 or 15 years if filed after 2015.

This particular patent wasn't even Benchmade's; they were just licensed to use the "technology" covered by it.


Publication number US5737841 A
Publication type Grant
Application number US 08/679,122
Publication date Apr 14, 1998
Filing date Jul 12, 1996
Priority date Jul 12, 1996
Fee status Paid
Inventors William J. McHenry, Jason L. Williams
Original Assignee Mchenry; William J., Williams; Jason L.

"A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, whichever expires later."
"once the monopoly granted by the patent expires, everyone is free to exploit the invention commercially."

Nope not going over it again. Already did once in this thread. If you care so much read this thread you are posting in. You can have your opinion on the subject and I can think that opinion is wrong

 

[davek14]

But you didn't really give us the details of how a patent from 2010 was filed. You said you weren't a lawyer and that it would have to be decided in court.

When I said I thought that 34 years was excessive for a patent you accused me of supporting counterfeiting. I do believe that licensing an idea and then legally finagling sole use for that long is not what the patent provision in the Constitution foresaw. Less expensive versions would constitute innovation too.

This is a very good forum and I like it quite a bit. I've learned a lot here and I'm not going anywhere. Threads like this leave a bad taste in my mouth though.

 

[craytab]

But you didn't really give us the details of how a patent from 2010 was filed. You said you weren't a lawyer and that it would have to be decided in court.

Why do I have to give you the details? Can you not look up yourself? That is what I did. It goes into great detail including confirmation of fee payment. I would suggest looking into it. I said what I said based on what I've seen. I also said that IMO the patent is still good. Not a lawyer. Just a guy who has actually looked at the fillings. Can you say the same? And again, you are free to have a different opinion and I am free to disagree

When I said I thought that 34 years was excessive for a patent you accused me of supporting counterfeiting.

I said no such thing. Shall I go back and look that up for you too?

I do believe that licensing an idea and then legally finagling sole use for that long is not what the patent provision in the Constitution foresaw. Less expensive versions would constitute innovation too.

No it wouldn't. That is not innovation. Just making stuff with cheaper labor and less expensive materials with someone else's idea is not innovation. What BM does is innovation. Look at their APB.

This is a very good forum and I like it quite a bit. I've learned a lot here and I'm not going anywhere. Threads like this leave a bad taste in my mouth though.

I can see why you feel that way. Consider changing your position on the subject. The opinion here is quite clear on the subject and likely won't be changing anytime soon.

 

[davek14]

I said no such thing. Shall I go back and look that up for you too?

Don't bother.

In Article I, section 8, the U.S. Constitution:

Congress shall have power . . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

https://www.conservativereview.com/...ent-office-to-blame-for-the-epipen-price-hike

It would be good for the community if many makers could use the Axis Lock now that the intended patent has run it's course. I hope that happens.

BTW: I use allergy drops now and am required to purchase an Epi-Pen yearly. I was on allergy shots just north of 25 years ago and had to buy Epi-Pens then as well. It was around $500 recently with a coupon and around $25 back then.

It is important to recognize this is a knife forum and not an epi-pen forum. It is also important to read the stance of counterfeits of this forum. Failure to do so is not recommended...

So, I was speaking of patents and you "randomly" brought up counterfeiting I suppose in response. And yes, it did feel like a threat sir.

Why don't you want to give details on the Axis lock patent? I am truly interested. It would be knife related content and from what I *have* found Googling it all a lot of folks would be interested.