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Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

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Sirryacus said:
Support local business because it's local not because it's good.
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What? Please explain how that has anything to do with this conversation. I have knives from companies that are made all over the world. A counterfeit is a counterfeit no matter where it is made. You are not making any sense in this conversation.
 
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Sirryacus said:
Support local business because it's local not because it's good.
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No.

Support some local businesses *because* they're good AND local, but if a local business doesn't make a good product it doesn't make sense to support them. If price is the only difference, I choose local businesses and just buy fewer items.

As a good example, I'll use the coffee shops in my area: we have 8 different ones within 1 sq. mile of where I work, and each one has varying levels of quality. The closest one has been part of the neighborhood for the longest, yet makes the worst coffee and has the least pleasant atmosphere of all of them. They grew a following including many of my coworkers and myself for over a year, then switched operators and went downhill fast.

What you are saying means that I should still buy coffee from them because they are local, my coworkers and I decided after a while that it was no longer worth it to support this local shop and instead started frequenting 3 of the other local shops that make better coffee and have a better atmosphere. The coffee is more expensive (slightly) but tastes a lot better. We support the good local shops, and don't support the bad local shop, it's simple capitalism that is easy to employ.

There might be local knife-makers that make sucky knives but rely on the fact they're local to keep finding buyers, but that doesn't mean all local businesses are automatically worse just because they rely on local support to continue doing business.
 
craytab said:
What? Please explain how that has anything to do with this conversation. I have knives from companies that are made all over the world. A counterfeit is a counterfeit no matter where it is made. you an not making any sense in this conversation.
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it's about those people who will buy any manner of junk if it's made by the right "person" even if it's terrible and they expect others to do the same and get very angry if people refuse to do so or if they question it, i've even ran into makers themselves giving a how dare you attitude if you do not like what they are selling.
 
The Schrade & CRK are very similar. I would think Schrade purposely set out to make a similar knife. It is different in many ways: dimensions, materials, certain shapes.
The simple fact is, that is enough of a difference for a court to generally find that one is not a copy of the other.
To a large extent, following the law of the land is the right thing to do. Just run with it.
If an individual wants to hold themselves to a higher moral standard, that is their choice.

Of course, fora such as this one have an international membership, & "law of the land" means different things to each of us.
 
KingMC said:
No.

Support some local businesses *because* they're good AND local, but if a local business doesn't make a good product it doesn't make sense to support them. If price is the only difference, I choose local businesses and just buy fewer items.

As a good example, I'll use the coffee shops in my area: we have 8 different ones within 1 sq. mile of where I work, and each one has varying levels of quality. The closest one has been part of the neighborhood for the longest, yet makes the worst coffee and has the least pleasant atmosphere of all of them. They grew a following including many of my coworkers and myself for over a year, then switched operators and went downhill fast.

What you are saying means that I should still buy coffee from them because they are local, my coworkers and I decided after a while that it was no longer worth it to support this local shop and instead started frequenting 3 of the other local shops that make better coffee and have a better atmosphere. The coffee is more expensive (slightly) but tastes a lot better. We support the good local shops, and don't support the bad local shop, it's simple capitalism that is easy to employ.

There might be local knife-makers that make sucky knives but rely on the fact they're local to keep finding buyers, but that doesn't mean all local businesses are automatically worse just because they rely on local support to continue doing business.
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My point is a lot of these people act like you should support just because they are local not because they are good.
 
OnceBitten said:
Clones, copies, fakes, knock-offs.....call them what you will.....they are all forms of counterfeit....even without logos.

It is THEFT.

Every dollar spent on same takes food off of the plates of the people working for the authentic manufacturers, takes money away from R&D budgets, and drives up prices on the genuine article.

Real Knife Lovers buy real knives.

Anything else is Aiding and Abetting.
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Let's see, using that logic you would be Aiding and Abetting if you drive/ride any of the following:

1. Toyota- they have a SUV that looks like the Subaru Forester from a few years ago.

2. Harley-Davidson- they stole the design of a BMW R71 motorcycle and made them for the US military.

3. The Acura Legend and the Mazda MX-6 were clones a few years ago. They were so close that twice I walked up to the wrong car.

4. Honda- also made a flat twin motorcycle based upon BMW designs along with other European designs.

So, consider yourself a thief if you own, drive, or ride any of these brands. You can't sell them to anyone because then others would be aiding and abetting.
We don't want that, do we? I guess it's OK to scrap your cars because then they are off the road. Take you earnings from getting these counterfeits off the road and purchase yourself a top grade bicycle. Just don't buy Cannondale brand because they made aluminum framed bicycles in the 1980-90's but BMW did it back in the 1940's. Decades before Cannondale even had them on their drawing boards.

Now, everyone has a right to their own opinion and I am not trying to attack or put down OnceBitten with my comments. Just trying to make the point that copying a design and then improving on the copy, is a fast way to learn. It happens and we are not going to stop it. Especially when innovation is rife, like it is now in the knife industry. I am not saying that it is right or wrong, just that it will continue in ever type of industry.

But does seem to cause problems here on BF.com. The only three ways that I can think of to stop the drama would be to:

1) Everyone respond by referring any post about clones, etc. to BF rules (like we do now when someone ask what their knife is worth).

2) Nobody respond to any thread about clones, copies, counterfeit, or homage knives (I doubt that is going to happen).

3) Come to a clear understanding that, at some level, the terms such as clone, copy, replica, etc. may mean something other than counterfeit and do not
automatically make a person a thief or dishonest.
 
Sirryacus said:
My point is a lot of these people act like you should support just because they are local not because they are good.
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Who are "these" people? To me the line between ethical and unethical is pretty clear (talking about knives not cars). For some that can't find it seems you're just looking for justification in your support of these companies. Personally I have no interest in supporting these types of practices.
 
Seneca18 said:
Who are "these" people? To me the line between ethical and unethical is pretty clear (talking about knives not cars). For some that can't find it seems you're just looking for justification in your support of these companies. Personally I have no interest in supporting these types of practices.
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I'm looking for justification? quite to opposite really, there are always local people hoping you'll support their sub-par trash because it's "local".
 
sabre cat said:
Let's see, using that logic you would be Aiding and Abetting if you drive/ride any of the following:


4. Honda- also made a flat twin motorcycle based upon BMW designs along with other European designs.

So, consider yourself a thief if you own, drive, or ride any of these brands.
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Nope, never happened. They didn't copy the NSU's either. Sidebar; Ernst Degner did defect from behind the iron curtain and handed MZ's secrets over to Suzuki.

Count Boselli gave Sochiro Honda a 125 GP bike but they didn't copy it. They used it as a yardstick to measure their own progress.
 
mtangent said:
Toyota is the largest shareholder in Subaru's parent company.
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I am not really surprised at that. I wonder if they were connected when their cars looked the same.

Does not really change my point though because things change all the time and we are all making judgment calls on limited information.
 
Sirryacus said:
I'm looking for justification? quite to opposite really, there are always local people hoping you'll support their sub-par trash because it's "local".
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That's not the point of this thread at all. The point of this thread is that cranking out copies of blades based on others work isn't kosher.

Sure there is some room for a well respected maker to build something in anohter's style but they always are very clear that this is there take on a Bowie or a Loveless. Not their own invention.
 
Danke42 said:
Nope, never happened. They didn't copy the NSU's either. Sidebar; Ernst Degner did defect from behind the iron curtain and handed MZ's secrets over to Suzuki.

Count Boselli gave Sochiro Honda a 125 GP bike but they didn't copy it. They used it as a yardstick to measure their own progress.
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I find that hard to believe that Honda never built a boxer style flat twin of some sort considering how common the belief is. It has even made it into print in reference books for BMW cycle enthusiast. I can tell you that Marusho Magnum produced a 500cc flat twin with Honda style forks, tank and rear light. Did Honda provide those are were they fakes?

However you are missing my main point. Clones and copies are here to stay. Right or wrong. Why drive away members and potential members with verbal attacks over the clone/copy issue. Not everyone that owns one is dishonest or a thief.
 
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Danke42 said:
That's not the point of this thread at all. The point of this thread is that cranking out copies of blades based on others work isn't kosher.

Sure there is some room for a well respected maker to build something in anohter's style but they always are very clear that this is there take on a Bowie or a Loveless. Not their own invention.
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You calling me a liar?
 
There's a reason these knives that are the topic of this thread aren't being sold by traditional retailers. I see them being sold directly from China or being resold on line basically by individuals.
 
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