Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[killgar]

Clones, copies, fakes, knock-offs.....call them what you will.....they are all forms of counterfeit....even without logos.

It is THEFT.

Every dollar spent on same takes food off of the plates of the people working for the authentic manufacturers, takes money away from R&D budgets, and drives up prices on the genuine article.

Real Knife Lovers buy real knives.

Anything else is Aiding and Abetting.

That's a very interesting point of view, and one that you appear to hold quite strongly. Just for the sake of discussion I would like to explore it a little and get your thoughts.

Here are links to two knives sold by Knifecenter.com, a paid sponsor of Bladeforums.

www.knifecenter.com/item/SCHF3/schrade/schf3-extreme-survival-fixed-combo-blade-micarta-handles

www.knifecenter.com/item/CRKPAC/chr...v-combo-blade-micarta-handles-multicom-sheath

Perhaps someone with better computer skills than I can post the actual pictures, as long as they don't violate any rules in the process.

Now maybe it's just me, but it certainly looks to me like the Schrade is a blatant COPY of the Chris Reeve knife. I find it hard to believe that Schrade just happened to design a knife that is almost identical to a Chris Reeve knife that costs over $300. It seems that no one ever copies an inexpensive knife.

Like I said, Knifecenter is a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. So I'll break it down like this-

Knifecenter sells COPIES (the Schrade is just one example).

Knifecenter sponsors Bladeforums.

In exchange for paid sponsorship, Bladeforums actively promotes Knifecenter and recommends that the members here buy knives from Knifecenter.

Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells COPIES.

Now personally I don't have a problem with Schrade, or Knifecenter, or the fact that Bladeforums promotes Knifecenter, but I'm interested to hear your opinions on the matter. If you feel so strongly about COPIES, and those who sell them, how do you feel about those who promote vendors who sell COPIES? By promoting a vendor who sells COPIES, do you feel that Bladeforums is "aiding and abetting" in the theft of knife designs?

And if you do believe that it is wrong to promote vendors who sell COPIES, are you going to leave Bladeforums and never return?

I for one am hoping you don't leave.

 

[stonproject]

That's a very interesting point of view, and one that you appear to hold quite strongly. Just for the sake of discussion I would like to explore it a little and get your thoughts.

Here are links to two knives sold by Knifecenter.com, a paid sponsor of Bladeforums.

www.knifecenter.com/item/SCHF3/schrade/schf3-extreme-survival-fixed-combo-blade-micarta-handles

www.knifecenter.com/item/CRKPAC/chr...v-combo-blade-micarta-handles-multicom-sheath

Perhaps someone with better computer skills than I can post the actual pictures, as long as they don't violate any rules in the process.

Now maybe it's just me, but it certainly looks to me like the Schrade is a blatant COPY of the Chris Reeve knife. I find it hard to believe that Schrade just happened to design a knife that is almost identical to a Chris Reeve knife that costs over $300. It seems that no one ever copies an inexpensive knife.

Like I said, Knifecenter is a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. So I'll break it down like this-

Knifecenter sells COPIES (the Schrade is just one example).

Knifecenter sponsors Bladeforums.

In exchange for paid sponsorship, Bladeforums actively promotes Knifecenter and recommends that the members here buy knives from Knifecenter.

Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells COPIES.

Now personally I don't have a problem with Schrade, or Knifecenter, or the fact that Bladeforums promotes Knifecenter, but I'm interested to hear your opinions on the matter. If you feel so strongly about COPIES, and those who sell them, how do you feel about those who promote vendors who sell COPIES? By promoting a vendor who sells COPIES, do you feel that Bladeforums is "aiding and abetting" in the theft of knife designs?

And if you do believe that it is wrong to promote vendors who sell COPIES, are you going to leave Bladeforums and never return?

I for one am hoping you don't leave.

There are many other examples of too-similar-to-be-a-coincidence knives for sale on there aswell but that schrade does look damn close to that CRK.

On the flip side, we're talking knives here, theres only so much you can do with a knife, function and design wise.

 

[Hackenslash]

It seems that no one ever copies an inexpensive knife.

I think you've raised some interesting points, but I did want to respond directly to this statement. Sadly, there seems to be no limit to the (low) price of a knife to be counterfeited or copied. The market is currently flooded with copies of the Ontario RAT model 1! It's sad but true. Popularity often drives what knife may become a victim of theft, not price tag. I never thought I'd see copies of a $30 knife available for $15...but it's happened.

 

[Danke42]

That's a very interesting point of view, and one that you appear to hold quite strongly. Just for the sake of discussion I would like to explore it a little and get your thoughts.

Here are links to two knives sold by Knifecenter.com, a paid sponsor of Bladeforums.

www.knifecenter.com/item/SCHF3/schrade/schf3-extreme-survival-fixed-combo-blade-micarta-handles

www.knifecenter.com/item/CRKPAC/chr...v-combo-blade-micarta-handles-multicom-sheath

Perhaps someone with better computer skills than I can post the actual pictures, as long as they don't violate any rules in the process.

Now maybe it's just me, but it certainly looks to me like the Schrade is a blatant COPY of the Chris Reeve knife. I find it hard to believe that Schrade just happened to design a knife that is almost identical to a Chris Reeve knife that costs over $300. It seems that no one ever copies an inexpensive knife.

Like I said, Knifecenter is a paid sponsor of Bladeforums. So I'll break it down like this-

Knifecenter sells COPIES (the Schrade is just one example).

Knifecenter sponsors Bladeforums.

In exchange for paid sponsorship, Bladeforums actively promotes Knifecenter and recommends that the members here buy knives from Knifecenter.

Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells COPIES.

Now personally I don't have a problem with Schrade, or Knifecenter, or the fact that Bladeforums promotes Knifecenter, but I'm interested to hear your opinions on the matter. If you feel so strongly about COPIES, and those who sell them, how do you feel about those who promote vendors who sell COPIES? By promoting a vendor who sells COPIES, do you feel that Bladeforums is "aiding and abetting" in the theft of knife designs?

And if you do believe that it is wrong to promote vendors who sell COPIES, are you going to leave Bladeforums and never return?

I for one am hoping you don't leave.

Those both look like copies of an older American knife.

Chris Reeve says this.

Continuing the proud tradition of Chris Reeve Knives honoring elite military, the Reeve/Harsey collaboration - the Pacific - is the civilian version of a knife created to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne).

Schrade doesn't put up too much history but does note it's a Bowie blade. Who made the knife first?

Since we have a pretty solid Chris Reeve subforum why not post this in there and see what sort of feedback is raised.

 

[killgar]

Sadly, there seems to be no limit to the (low) price of a knife to be counterfeited or copied. The market is currently flooded with copies of the Ontario RAT model 1! It's sad but true. Popularity often drives what knife may become a victim of theft, not price tag. I never thought I'd see copies of a $30 knife available for $15...but it's happened.

You're right, and I should have known better than to suggest that only expensive knives get copied. After all, on a few occasions on this forum I have pointed out several manufacturers who produce copies of the Buck 110.

 

[killgar]

Those both look like copies of an older American knife.

Chris Reeve says this.

Continuing the proud tradition of Chris Reeve Knives honoring elite military, the Reeve/Harsey collaboration - the Pacific - is the civilian version of a knife created to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne).

Schrade doesn't put up too much history but does note it's a Bowie blade. Who made the knife first?

Since we have a pretty solid Chris Reeve subforum why not post this in there and see what sort of feedback is raised.

If there is an older knife that looks almost identical to the two I posted I'd be very interested to see it.

My interpretation of the Chris Reeve statement is that Harsey produced a knife to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1st Special Forces Group (perhaps the knives were given to all surviving members), and that the Pacific is a production version that was made for sale to the public. But I could be wrong about that and I welcome any correction.

As far as posting the Schrade knife in the Chris Reeve sub forum, that seems intentionally and unnecessarily provocative, and that's not my intent. Frankly, I have no interest in what Chris Reeve fans think of the Schrade copy. But If someone else wants find out what they think of the knife they are certainly free to do so.

This thread topic is, in part, about "copies", and the ethics of making, buying, and selling them. My questions, and the point of my post was to take the ethical question one step further and inquire about peoples opinions regarding the ethics of promoting a vendor who sells copies. And I think the question has greater relevance due to the fact that Bladeforums is promoting some of them. I used Oncebitten's post as the starting point for my question because I suspect that others might share his opinions (I wasn't trying to pick on you Oncebitten ).

 

[craytab]

I think you've raised some interesting points, but I did want to respond directly to this statement. Sadly, there seems to be no limit to the (low) price of a knife to be counterfeited or copied. The market is currently flooded with copies of the Ontario RAT model 1! It's sad but true. Popularity often drives what knife may become a victim of theft, not price tag. I never thought I'd see copies of a $30 knife available for $15...but it's happened.

You're right, and I should have known better than to suggest that only expensive knives get copied. After all, on a few occasions on this forum I have pointed out several manufacturers who produce copies of the Buck 110.

The thing with that Rat 1 knock off is that it has a counterfeit axis lock. It is a clone and counterfeit at once. What would it cost ganzo to either license the axis lock or produce an equivalent lock like other have done? I believe this makes the ganzo rat 1 with an axis lock not a copy of an inexpensive knife.

 

[Sirryacus]

I'm not threatening anyone. Nor am I insulting anyone. I'm sorry some people get offended when it is pointed out to them that their choice of knife is frowned upon here and that this forum thinks their choice of knife hurts our hobby. Sometimes reality hurts and can be misconstrued as a threat or insult. As for that other thread you mention? I don't recall saying anything there. The subject of that thread was very different than this or the other counterfeit threads.

I never said you said anything in the other thread I said you should save your threats for guys like that instead of throwing them at people who have done nothing wrong.

 

[Sirryacus]

Clones, copies, fakes, knock-offs.....call them what you will.....they are all forms of counterfeit....even without logos.

It is THEFT.

Every dollar spent on same takes food off of the plates of the people working for the authentic manufacturers, takes money away from R&D budgets, and drives up prices on the genuine article.

Real Knife Lovers buy real knives.

Anything else is Aiding and Abetting.

Not buying some idiots overpriced garbage isn't taking "food off their table", what's next you'll claim people have to buy anything and everything because "everyone needs a job"?

 

[killgar]

Not buying some idiots overpriced garbage isn't taking "food off their table", what's next you'll claim people have to buy anything and everything because "everyone needs a job"?

Can I give some friendly advice, and it truly is intended as friendly advice- being argumentative and antagonistic like that^, and using provocative language like "idiots overpriced garbage" are exactly the sorts of things that can get a thread locked.

I'm not trying to tell you how to post, but maybe ease up a bit.

 

[Sirryacus]

Can I give some friendly advice, and it truly is intended as friendly advice- being argumentative and antagonistic like that^, and using provocative language like "idiots overpriced garbage" are exactly the sorts of things that can get a thread locked.

I'm not trying to tell you how to post, but maybe ease up a bit.

This thread needs to be locked it shouldn't have went on this long, it's my not job to buy items I don't need to just so someone can have a job which seems to be the stance a lot of people take in "hobbies".

 

[craytab]

I never said you said anything in the other thread I said you should save your threats for guys like that instead of throwing them at people who have done nothing wrong.

I'm sorry you think me saying that barging about being a counterfeit supporter is not recommended here. It is not a threat. I sincerely mean it is not recommended. Go look at the policy here on this subject in the rules. The position of this forum is that it hurts the hobby and this community. Most here agree. You don't and are wrong. Not a threat. That is the opinion here. Go somewhere else that shares your opinion if you don't want to here what we say here.

 

[killgar]

This thread needs to be locked it shouldn't have went on this long, it's my job to buy items I don't need to just so someone can have a job which seems to be the stance a lot of people take in "hobbies".

The membership of this forum can determine which topics they wish to discuss and how long they wish to discuss them, with the moderators being the final authority. We don't need you telling us how long a thread should go on or when it should be locked.

I hope the moderators will not punish all of those members here who wish to continue discussing this topic by locking this thread due to one members inappropriate behavior. If one member cannot discuss a topic in a civil manner, then I would hope that one member would be punished and not the entire forum.

 

[Sirryacus]

I'm sorry you think me saying that barging about being a counterfeit supporter is not recommended here. It is not a threat. I sincerely mean it is not recommended. Go look at the policy here on this subject in the rules. The position of this forum is that it hurts the hobby and this community. Most here agree. You don't and are wrong. Not a threat. That is the opinion here. Go somewhere else that shares your opinion if you don't want to here what we say here.

I couldn't care less if it's "not recommended" the person you told it to already knows it's "not recommended" so why waste your time mentioning something they already know? again your snide comments should have been directed at the idiot calling people rednecks and white trash instead.

 

[Sirryacus]

The membership of this forum can determine which topics they wish to discuss and how long they wish to discuss them, with the moderators being the final authority. We don't need you telling us how long a thread should go on or when it should be locked.

I hope the moderators will not punish all of those members here who wish to continue discussing this topic by locking this thread due to one members inappropriate behavior. If one member cannot discuss a topic in a civil manner, then I would hope that one member would be punished and not the entire forum.

There has been at least 20 people in this topic showing inappropriate behavior including you.

 

[Danke42]

If there is an older knife that looks almost identical to the two I posted I'd be very interested to see it.

My interpretation of the Chris Reeve statement is that Harsey produced a knife to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1st Special Forces Group (perhaps the knives were given to all surviving members), and that the Pacific is a production version that was made for sale to the public. But I could be wrong about that and I welcome any correction.

As far as posting the Schrade knife in the Chris Reeve sub forum, that seems intentionally and unnecessarily provocative, and that's not my intent. Frankly, I have no interest in what Chris Reeve fans think of the Schrade copy. But If someone else wants find out what they think of the knife they are certainly free to do so.

This thread topic is, in part, about "copies", and the ethics of making, buying, and selling them. My questions, and the point of my post was to take the ethical question one step further and inquire about peoples opinions regarding the ethics of promoting a vendor who sells copies. And I think the question has greater relevance due to the fact that Bladeforums is promoting some of them. I used Oncebitten's post as the starting point for my question because I suspect that others might share his opinions (I wasn't trying to pick on you Oncebitten ).

A vendor like Knife Center is pretty unlikely to vet every single item they sell. But if a complaint comes to them from enough customers (who follow up by voting with their wallets) they would act to drop an offending item.

My take is the Chris Reeve knife is version of a knife issued decades ago. Now who first made that knife that it's based on would be the hinge point. If Schrade first made that blade then there would be no reason they couldn't make it again.

The Chris Reeve knife folks would be a good place to ask about the provenance of their knife. If you feel it's too provocative leave the second part of the question out.

 

[craytab]

This thread needs to be locked it shouldn't have went on this long, it's my not job to buy items I don't need to just so someone can have a job which seems to be the stance a lot of people take in "hobbies".

Well this is a classic reason why people approve of or support counterfeiting. You either can't afford or won't pay the price of the original. But some how you have also included a reverse job creation or economical aspect to the thing while also throwing the hobby under the bus. Nice job. Never seen that one before.

There has been at least 20 people in this topic showing inappropriate behavior including you.

Killgar and I rarely agree but he said nothing inappropriate. In fact, he might agree with you more than any other established member here. I would take a step back and look at what you are doing. It doesn't make sense anymore.

 

[GermanyChris]

There has been at least 20 people in this topic showing inappropriate behavior including you.

Seriously..killgar was not being inappropriate..I don''t think it's possible for you to fail anymore

 

[Sirryacus]

Well this is a classic reason why people approve of or support counterfeiting. You either can't afford or won't pay the price of the original. But some how you have also included a reverse job creation or economical aspect to the thing while also throwing the hobby under the bus. Nice job. Never seen that one before.



Killgar and I rarely agree but he said nothing inappropriate. In fact, he might agree with you more than any other established member here. I would take a step back and look at what you are doing. It doesn't make sense anymore.

Support local business because it's local not because it's good.

 

[killgar]

A vendor like Knife Center is pretty unlikely to vet every single item they sell. But if a complaint comes to them from enough customers (who follow up by voting with their wallets) they would act to drop an offending item.

If it were just a single knife then maybe I could see Knifecenter pulling it if enough people complained, but if Knifecenter took the position that copies are bad, then it stands to reason that they would have to drop the entire brand. After all, if they are going to say that it's bad to copy/steal another knife makers design, then how could they justify selling any knives from a brand that copies/steals other knife makers designs.

And if Knifecenter, or any other vendor were to decide to drop the Schrade brand, then they would have to drop ALL of Taylor brand knives, because Taylor owns the Schrade name, as well as several other knife brand names. If a vendor chose to stop selling all of Taylor's brands, that vendor would have to accept a serious financial loss on their current inventory of Taylor brand knives. And I just don't think they would do that over a handful of complaints.

Standing on principle can be expensive.

My take is the Chris Reeve knife is version of a knife issued decades ago. Now who first made that knife that it's based on would be the hinge point. If Schrade first made that blade then there would be no reason they couldn't make it again.

The Chris Reeve knife folks would be a good place to ask about the provenance of their knife. If you feel it's too provocative leave the second part of the question out.

I did a little research, and I found a military personnel forum where the 1st Special Forces Anniversary knife was being discussed, including a post from Bill Harsey describing the knife, the post was from 2007. Mr. Harsey explained that the Anniversary knife was a being made by Chris Reeve at the request of those who had wanted the Anniversary knife made. And the Pacific was going to be a model sold to the public, with the difference between the two knives being the markings, and serial numbers on the anniversary model.

My distinct impression is that the Anniversary knife is an original and modern design by Bill Harsey, and not a modern copy of an older military issue knife. I've seen a lot of military/Special Forces knives in my life, and I don't recall ever seeing one like the Pacific.

I'm convinced that the Pacific came before the Schrade. Not for one second do I believe that Mr. Harsey and Mr. Reeve would copy a knife, much less copy one for a military anniversary knife. And like I said, the similarities between the Pacific and the Schrade are just too extreme for me to believe that they are a coincidence. I'm not calling for tar and feathers for Schrade/Taylor Brands, but it really does look to me like they copied the Pacific.