Firearm question

Eric,

"Common knowledge" among gun types for years was that the shotgun, especially the 12-gauge, was preferred for home defense. I have come to believe otherwise, based on my own experience (I virtually grew up with a shotgun in my hands, incidentally), and a steadily increasing number of the most respected firearms trainers- such as Clint Smith and Louis ("Mr. Shotgun") Awerbuck- believe, as I do, that a decent carbine is preferable.

The big advantage of the shotgun is versatility, but for dedicated manstopping, any decent intermediate caliber (.223, 7.62x39mm, .250 Savage, "hot" .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum) carbine with expanding ammo is a better choice. More rounds, faster time on target, easier to learn to shoot well, and even less chance of overpenetrating a home invader than shotgun rounds, while simultaneously giving you more options should you ever have to take shots over 20 meters.

A shotgun can work well, but I now load my defensive shotguns with reduced recoil slugs. In any event, a shotgun is still far superior to a handgun for home defense, and training and practice make it just as handy as a sidearm for any use except concealment.

Regards,

John
 
I like the cut of Spectre's jib. (?) A carbine like the Marlin lever in 41, or the new semi auto Ruger .44, would be ideal. Probably by now someone is putting out extended capacity mags for it. I think the Ruger comes with a 4 round hunting mag. My gunsmith friend swears by his, saying the recoil is absorbed by the action and it is very easy to shoot.



munk
 
I own a Marlin 357 carbine. It puts out about 1100 ft-lbs, and as much as 1200 or so, depending on the load.

It will drive a 38 special+p load to 357 mag. handgun velocities, with recoil that feels like a 22 LR.
 
Just picked up the September issue of "Guns & Ammo" (with the defense shotguns article) and will do some more research. I will look for opportunities to test-fire various pieces. I think ultimately I'd like to have a good shotgun/sidearm combination. Not sure which direction I will go in for an initial choice, but I really appreciate the input from everyone here.

Eric
 
I use the 1911 because it is what I shoot best. Weapon retention is far less a concern than a long gun, be it rifle or shotgun. With 230 gr Hydro-Shocks shoot through is less of an issue than a rifle cartridge. Since I am on a semi-suburban 1/2 acre lot, shoot through is a serious concern here. These are all valid criteria in choosing what works best for YOU.

The most important part of this discussion to me is the part about practice, responsibility, and knowing when to shoot.
Know your state and local laws. Take a firearms training course.
Practice safe handling at all times, and control familiarity comes with practice.

DaddyDett
 
Lots of great info for you to digest, Eric006, and if I may put my two cents in on the topic. I own several examples of the types of weapons people have listed; a .357 revolver, a 9mm semi-automatic, a .30 M-1 carbine, and a 12 gauge shotgun. Although I like the carbine and the shotgun, the weapon for HD for me is the .357 revolver.Nothing wrong with the longarms, but a handgun in general, and a revolver in particular are that much easier to use,not as loud, fired around corners easier,and harder to be dis-armed, but to be honest, the 12 ga.is my fall back weapon. You can fire a handgun abidextriously with less clumsiness than a longarm, and you can, and should IMO, have a strong flashlight use in conjunction with the gun, if not actually attatched to it.And personally, I have a fighting knife either on my person, or placed nearby, just in case. And to you and anyone else who might have to use it....PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!
 
Bowieman, what is the make/model of the .357? A friend has a S&W .357 revolver with a shrouded hammer I like - it is very light.

Eric
 
If you want to talk "ideal", I think some of the entry weapons the SWAT guys are using are close to that (for the same reasons they use them).
Silenced MP-5 9mm w/3-round burstor (or comparable sub gun) or perhaps one of those extra (illegally) short semi-auto 12-ga. would be very handy. Don't get caught with one of those if you don't have a badge!
 
Mine is a Ruger SP 101, a 5-shot snubbie 2 1/4" barrel. I got it primarily as a bug out bag/ urban disaster gun, but it serves just as well as a desert excursion sidearm.:D It works for me, but if you have the money, you might want a longer barrel, 4" would serve you well, as would one that has a higher cylinder capacity; Taurus, Smith & Wesson, and I belive, Colt make revolvers with 7, and 8 shot cylinders. This would put you up towards the semi-auto in firepower (almost), while still retaining the simplicity of a good, double action revolver.
 
Most SWAT/entry teams are now going with M4s or the equivalent. Superior performance in tissue, and less chance of shoot-through building materials than 9mm.

If you had the money, and live in a state where it's legal, a 16" AR and a sound suppressor would be ideal for home defense.

Less expensive, and easier/quicker to obtain, the same carbine and a decent pair of electronic hearing protectors.

J
 
Dave Rishar said:
The esteemed Jeff Cooper has praised the humble side-by-side shotgun ("coach gun") with exposed hammers for this role.
Click to expand...

If you aren't going to handle the shotgun on a daily basis, definately go with Cooper's advice. Accidental discharges are very frequent with pump guns as your local Police could testify - if you could get them to admit it.
 
There is another problem with pump shotguns. While they may not eject some brands of casings well, they also require lots of practice. You need to be pretty vigorous with the slide or you may fail to eject a shell casing and tie up the gun.
They need practice and frequent use.

THis is not the case for a 357 revolver.
I recommend a full size gun with a 4 inch barrel.
A small-light hideout will be VERY hard to shoot well.
I have a 3" Ruger SP101 and a 4" full size GP100 with a 4" barrel. The full size gun is much easier to shoot well.
 
Steve's (2) and (3) are exactly the MO at my house. Richard, also, makes excellent sense. And, Munk, the only reason there is a Winchester 1200 at my house instead of a Rem 870 or a Mossberg was price. That's right, price. I happened across the Winchester in nearly new condition except for a big dent in the barrel about six inches in front of the magazine tube...$125. I cut and champhered it at 90 degrees, and installed a big red fiber-optic bead. It shoots slugs and #1 Buck beautifully. Any of the three will give great service
 
richardallen said:
Inquiring mind wants to know; for those advocating a .38 frame - why not go with a .357 frame and load it with .38s oder .38 p+? With a .357 frame, at least you have to option to go more powerful than .38

I dont know much about guns though :foot:

Keno
Click to expand...

I'll post my opinion.

This thread is about HD. A .38 special in close quarters is plenty. A .357 could continue on and hurt a neighbor. It's unlikely that every round fired under the stress of a life and death situation will hit the target.
 
The possibility of over-penetration (shoot through) would be an issue in my situation.

Eric
 
I'll bet you've gotten enough conflicting opinions now to be more confused than before you asked.

Bottom line is probably use what you have available and trained on and handle well, even in the dark. Be prepared, but hope you never need it.

Odds are it will only last for seconds, but seem longer and you will about OD on adrenaline afterwards.
 
Steve Poll said:
I'll post my opinion.

This thread is about HD. A .38 special in close quarters is plenty. A .357 could continue on and hurt a neighbor. It's unlikely that every round fired under the stress of a life and death situation will hit the target.
Click to expand...

Steve, yes!

What keeps you from loading a .357 with .38 loads? Then, if your HD gun ever goes outdoors, at least you still have the option to put hotter (=.357mag) loads in it.

That's what I was trying to say. And with all the fancy scandium frames that are being manufactured these days, I doubt that a .357 frame is much, if any heavier or larger than a .38 frame. It just gives you more options, should you ever decide you want to use your gun for more than HD purposes.

Regards,

Keno
 
cliff355 said:
If you aren't going to handle the shotgun on a daily basis, definately go with Cooper's advice. Accidental discharges are very frequent with pump guns as your local Police could testify - if you could get them to admit it.
Click to expand...

This is one line of reasoning that I really, really disagree with. I'm not a huge fan of double barreled shotguns for this purpose to begin with, but one with exposed hammers is just going too far IMO.

For starters, you have to cock both hammers to ready it. This means you have to reach all the way across the top of the action with your thumb to reach the hammer on the off side, meaning you need a significant grip shift to do so, which takes precious time.

Then next problem with that is being sure that they're fully cocked, and not just at the half cock notch. Doing this by feel in low light in a tense situation is less than ideal.

Then, there's the safety issue. Their exposed nature means the hammers can snag on stuff and get cocked accidentally, or just broken off. And once you've got them cocked and discover it was just the cat, how do you make the weapon safe again? You have to pull the trigger and gently lower the hammers. Just hope your thumb doesn't slip, or that with the adrenaline you forgot which trigger fires which barrel.

There are several variations with modern designs- some have an additional tang safety. Which begs the question, if you're gonna have a safety anyway, what's the point of the hammers? On other designs, you can open the action first and then gently lower the hammers to prevent an accidental dischage. But of course, this means the gun could fire if the action isn't fully locked closed, too. Know what happens then? And I've seen another person on these forums advocate keeping the gun stored with the action broke open, which gives plenty of opportunity for crap to find its way under the barrels so they don't close fully. And, tell me, does anyone think all this is somehow easier, or quicker to learn than simply flipping a safety switch on or off?

The issue of safe storage is one that each person needs to resolve for themselves and their own situation. But some people (including the person mentioned above) have said the double gun can be stored unloaded with the action open so you can quickly load it. I ain't buying it. I've fumbled too many reloads with dad's old double barrel 10 gauge in the dark. You have to fit both shells into a hole their exact same size at the same time, or carefully load them seperately, which takes time too. A pump or auto can be stored with an empty chamber and full magazine, so that you don't have to fumble with the shells at all. Just shuck one in. And if you did want to drop one in the chamber of a repeater, the hole you put it in is much larger so you just literally have to drop it.
 
For the Possum:

1. Incorrect. You only have to cock one hammer to ready it. If you want to fire both barrels, you'll need to cock both hammers, but only one needs to be cocked in order to make things happen. It does not take long to do this. As for the grip shift...all I can say to that is, try it and tell me just how much of a grip shift it takes. My grip doesn't shift at all during this. A large thumb can actually get both at the same time.

I would actually go so far as to say that I could do this blindfolded in about the same amount of time that it takes to rack a pump and disengage the safety, and I have not received any formal training on a side-by-side. I've received (and given) quite a bit of training on pump shotguns.

2. With my piece (an inexpensive import), there's tactile and audible feedback when the hammers are fully cocked. There is no half-cock feature. As for hammers getting snagged on something, this is not limited strictly to exposed hammer shotguns and in my experience, is not a common occurance. If there is some doubt as to whether the hammer is half cocked or fully cocked, thumb it back -- now you know. This can be repeated as often as one likes with no change in the weapon's condition, unlike some safeties.

3. Clearing: open the action, remove any cartridges, close action, dry fire. I trust my thumb to lower hammers but I don't bother unless there's a good reason. On mine, this can be done with the action open. If the action must be in battery for the hammers to fall, it's a relatively simple matter to (again) clear the weapon and dryfire it afterwards.

4. Mine has a tang safety. I leave it off as a matter of policy. Mine appears to be able to fire out of battery, although most weapons can do this to one degree or another.

Easier than flipping a safety on or off? Possibly. It depends on the nature of the safety. There are some (many) that are not particularly intuitive in operation and can't easily be visually verified, even in daylight; unless one has spent a lot of time with them, it's a bit of a crapshoot. Hammers? It's back or it's not. If you're not sure, pull it back and now you know. This, to me, is easier than operating a "control lever" (ala H&K) or hunting for a crossbolt safety.

The primary benefit of this plan is that it's worry free...load it, cover the muzzles with something (tape or cotton balls work fine) and forget about it. It will work when needed. There are no magazine springs, no striker springs, no anything -- just two hammers to cock when there's a problem. Even if the thing has sat for so long that the shotshells have corroded and fused to the chambers, you'll get two shots out of it. It does not get much simpler.

We're in agreement about storing the weapon unloaded. I do not recommend this for the same reasons that you mention. (This is for any weapon, not just a break-action shotgun.) Unfortunately it's a necessity for some due to legal requirements or children; in those cases, I recommend something other than a side-by-side. It is meant to be stored loaded, and doing otherwise defeats the purpose of going this route. If you were debating this, I concede the point.

As for keeping a magazine tube loaded, I've seen this induce malfunctions in the past. I won't go into possible reasons for it. What I will say is that if this is the plan, keep up on maintenance and make sure that you know how to operate the action release every time under every condition; whenever I've seen (or see) a professional tug at the forearm a few times before realizing what went wrong, a little part of me dies inside. ;) This is merely embarressing on the range.

On a less serious note, I know someone whose plan involves storing a drum-equipped WASR with a load of 123-grain hollowpoints and a flashlight clamped to the barrel; in case of emergency, the drum's key is wound a few turns, the flashlight is directed at the threat, and the trigger is hauled repeatedly until the situation resolves itself. That's one approach, I guess, and I'm sure that with 75 rounds on tap something will be hit, but I would not want a neighbor practicing such a thing. As such I can't recommend this. :rolleyes:
 
the possum said:
This is one line of reasoning that I really, really disagree with.
Click to expand...

Possum:

I'm not sure which part of this reasoning you disagree with, but I probably should qualify my statement. The majority of blown out car doors, car windows, car roofs, range house doors, roofs, windows and dirt kicked up by surprise that I am aware of were done with the Model 37 Ithaca and the frequency of such events with Remington 870s is significantly less. It still happens with the Remington, but side ejection ports are apparently easier for occasional users to operate safely than the Ithaca bottom-ejector.

For the user who operates all levers and controls of the gun at least once a week, safety with a pump gun is a non-issue, but a user who only touches the thing once or twice a year may be better served with a more simpler device.
 
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