Firearm question

Steve Poll said:
Regardless of what you use for HD, Eric has a pretty good thread here.
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I have printed out a number of threads for my "blades" file. This one will be the first in my "firearms" file. Thanks again to all for sharing your information and experience. :)

Eric
 
Many greats points posted here to be sure. One common thread correctly pointed out is the time it takes to get comfortable and confident with the chosen armament.

We can certainly accept that there are those who put more time into practice and seeking professional training, and those who will store the weapon away after test firing, just to have something in the abode to greet Mr/ Ms. baddie who made themselves an unwelcome houseguest.

Having said this, I would recommend investing in A long gun and A handgun combo, and learn how to use them as much as possible. In the home defense scenario, one of the handiest defensive tools is the proverbial handgun in the dresser.....great! Grab it, rack a round in or take you quickie removable gunlock off, and work you way to your long gun! You MIGHT end up relying on your handgun more, because it's size is convenient, but it's all about OPTIONS OPTIONS OPTIONS. Put a high intensity flashlight on BOTH weapons if possible. Practice at home, walking throug the house with UNLOADED firearms, using the flashlights AS NEEDED. Get a feel for safe hidey places to sit and wait -then challenge with the dazzling light. Have a way to holster/ sling your weapons to free up your hands if you need your "grabbers" for the very important 911 call and to round up the munchkins to get them to the designated "safe room" in the house.

While there ARE more "flavors" of firearms than Baskin Robbins, here is a favorite combination....Rem 870 20 ga. - Basic, sturdy pump shotgun. W/ a Surefire light (or similar bolted on) Lower recoil than 12ga., ammo from Bird to Buck to Slug available. Looks like an "outdoors sporting" gun rather than a "sinister assault weapon" (Sorry folks, but there IS the jury factor we should NOT ignore)

I would also choose one of the 10+ Rd autoloaders, likely in 40 ca. Also w/ some sort of quick detach high intensity light. The .40 has proven itself to be quite capable of stopping humans from carrying out violence. It has a WIDE variety of bullet weights, from VERY light "home defense" rounds to the 180 grain hollow points. If Full Metal Jacketed is your flavor, Fiocchi makes a SMOKING FMJ round. The .40 also has enough surface area , even in the FMJ flatpoint or conical point to get the baddie's attention.

For those who like revolvers, much could be said for the good old .38 special in a 3-5 inch Bbl length, which could be paired with a Marlin or Winchester lever gun.

In the end? Settle on your HANDGUN purchase first. By virtue of size alone, it is the one you WILL GENRALLY gravitate towards first. Go to a shotting range and shoot the bejeebers our of the trial guns, and find out what fits YOUR hand, and what you shoot GREAT with. Buy the handgun you are most happy with, TRy like crazy to get to a BASIC one week handgun class at Gunsite/ Thunder Ranch etc, and shoot the HECK out of it. Learn your handgun inside and out, daylight and dark, gloves on and off.

After you have done this, do the same thing to find your long gun. You will be happy with the time and money you have wisely invested!

PS- This might be a good time to check the quality of doors and door locks in the house. A minor investment here can often pay of great dividends in deterring crooks and buying you time while the portal is being breached.

Thanks for reading.....

Blueline
 
Dave Rishar said:
For the Possum:

1. Incorrect. You only have to cock one hammer to ready it. If you want to fire both barrels, you'll need to cock both hammers, but only one needs to be cocked in order to make things happen. It does not take long to do this. As for the grip shift...all I can say to that is, try it and tell me just how much of a grip shift it takes. My grip doesn't shift at all during this. A large thumb can actually get both at the same time.
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Well, I'm kinda left scratching my head on this one. Yeah, if you cock one hammer, you have one barrel ready to fire. But you want to wait until you desperately need that second shot before cocking the other? This also presupposes that you're instinctively familliar enough with the gun to put your finger on the correct trigger for the cocked barrel, in the heat of the moment. (In contrast to those who say these guns are better for those who don't want to practice.) I do have kinda stubby fingers, so will concede that maybe others out there can cock both hammers without a grip shift, but I certainly can't. And I've tried. I guess that's why I have trouble with the idea of shifting my grip to cock the far hammer and shifting back to a firing grip in the middle of a firefight.

Dave Rishar said:
2. With my piece (an inexpensive import), there's tactile and audible feedback when the hammers are fully cocked. There is no half-cock feature.
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Very well then. As I mentioned, there are indeed a number of variations especially with modern guns. Many do have a half-cock feature, especially those without a separate safety.

Dave Rishar said:
As for hammers getting snagged on something, this is not limited strictly to exposed hammer shotguns and in my experience, is not a common occurance.
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Well, I've never had the hammer on an internally hammered gun get snagged on anything. ?? No, probably not "common", but it is just one more thing to watch out for with this design. I've read plenty of hunting accidents that happened because of this, and Dad would never let us use his 1897 Winchester because of the exposed hammer until we were older. Seen lots of old guns with hammers bent, broken, or missing, too.

Dave Rishar said:
3. Clearing: open the action, remove any cartridges, close action, dry fire. I trust my thumb to lower hammers but I don't bother unless there's a good reason. On mine, this can be done with the action open. If the action must be in battery for the hammers to fall, it's a relatively simple matter to (again) clear the weapon and dryfire it afterwards.
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Relatively simple compared to what? Even the way you do it, once those hammers have been cocked, you have to unload the gun before you can make it safe again. And then you have to put those shells right back in if you want to keep it in a relatively ready-to-go status. (especially since you mentioned keeping it loaded all the time, anyway.) And all this is still simpler even while holding a flashlight or cell phone too? With an auto or pump, I propose that simply flipping the saftey back on is even easier.

Dave Rishar said:
4. Mine has a tang safety. I leave it off as a matter of policy.
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Still not seeing how a gun with five fire controls (i.e., 2 hammers, 2 triggers & a safety) is somehow simpler than a gun with only two (safety & trigger). Especially since this design is touted as superior for the average Joe who doesn't want to invest a lot of practice.

Dave Rishar said:
Easier than flipping a safety on or off? Possibly. It depends on the nature of the safety.
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Then I will concede that this part is simply a matter of what you've gotten used to. I grew up with a Rem 1100, and find the crossbolt safety perfect. You can push the safety off in one motion as your finger is sliding into the trigger guard.

Dave Rishar said:
As for keeping a magazine tube loaded... What I will say is that if this is the plan, keep up on maintenance and make sure that you know how to operate the action release every time under every condition; whenever I've seen (or see) a professional tug at the forearm a few times before realizing what went wrong, a little part of me dies inside. ;)
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I suppose I'm of the school that believes a gun kept for home defense should be regularly maintained and practiced with anyway. But I do agree a double could certainly fill a niche for someone who wants to put it away and know it's ready to go. BUT- Why does it have to have hammers?? What's wrong with an internal hammered double?

And I understand your warnings pertaining to the pump's slide release, which are valid. It's one more reason why I prefer autos over pumps, but I suppose that's a whole 'nuther topic.

Hope I ain't coming off too abrasive here. I really appreciate the in-depth and well thought out discussion on all sides. Hope ya'll keep it comin'.
 
Right now, I have a 20ga ithaca 37 with a 20" barrel, loaded with #4 buck. 4 in the tube, none in the chamber, to ease the pressure on the spring. I have a shell holder on the stock, with 2 more buck, and then 3 slugs at the ready. When i put the gun on "standby", I make sure the chamber is empty, then dry fire it. It is now ready for slide racking without using the release.This works for any pump that i am aware of. Still, I practice fingereing the release, just in case.

One consideration, with leverguns, is safe unloading. You have to work all the rounds through the action. Shouldn't be a problem, but it makes me a bit nervous, let alone asking my wife or oldest son to do it.

When i unload my ithaca now, I make sure the chamber is empty, then screw the barrel off. Then I rack all the ammo out of the mag tube.

A semi auto (carbine)is probably in my future. Simpler for the rest of the family to operate, and easier to make it safe when unloading. easier to leave empty and load in a hurry, if that is a consideration. Always check that chamber!!

Just some thoughts.

take care,

Tom
 
It's kinda funny they spent time money and engineering to internalize the hammers and shrink the hang time of the hammer-fall only to have the current generation wishfully desire the exposed hammers back.

As for snagging, or pump shotguns going off, everything has problems. Police are no more immune to laziness and forgetfullness than civilians. Accidents happen.

This is why it is critical to practise safe gun handling and barrel control. Keep the damn things pointed away from human beings at all times. Check your chambers often.

I think we make up obstacles that aren't really there.

Have fun, study hard, understand responsibility, and practise safety and consideration for your fellow man and you'll do fine.


Correct firearms handling exemplifies respect for oneself and others, as well as society.

munk
 
I duct-tape a 1911 to my left inner thigh each night. I used to duct-tape a .44 revolver to the outer right thigh, as well, but I couldn't roll over comfortably.




It's sleeping with the dagger in my mouth that I still have to perfect.








(Rusty? Is that you? Where are you? I KNOW you're here.;) )
 
I'm of the belief that a gun is the last thing you want to have to use during a home invasion/burglery situation. Here is my 12 step program for home protection.

1st - Get some good outside spotlights positioned on the corner of your house. Put a switch in several places where ,when you flip it, the front,back and side yards are all brightly lite up. Get a light sensor and keep some low voltage lights on outside at night. The small cost of electicity is nothing compared to your safety.

2nd - Get an alarm system. There are many kinds and all price ranges. When the alarm goes off (hopefully before anyone is in the house) the suspect usually disappears. It doesn't have to be expensive and monitored. All it has to do is make noise. Of course a monitored alarm system will protect the house when you are not there.

3rd - Get a dog. They are fun to have and hunt with and they function very well as a backup alarm system. Besides the kids like them.

4th - Get phones with a one button call feature for 911.

5th - Take a firearms safety course.

6th - Take another firearms safety course.

7th - Repeat both firearms safety courses.

8th - Get a firearm. Hopefully just the sight of it is enough to intimidate the burgler and make him scoot. A shotgun is a great intimidator, IMHO.

9th - Go to the range and shoot and practice as often as possible but no less than a couple times a year. You should be able to function the firearm blindfolded. Obviously not the aiming part, but to learn where all the bells and whistles are located, how to quickly load it, how to activate and release the safety, etc.

10th - Get a gun lock of some sort so the kids can't play around with the firearm and hurt themselves when you are not around.

11th - When the kids are old enough take them to the range and teach them about gun safety. Most kids, boys especially, are very curious and receptive to this time spent with their folks.

12th - Pat yourself on the back for all the hard work and effort you put into making your home a safe and secure dwelling place for you and your family.

Two of my favorite firearms are the Remington 870 pump and the Ruger Alaskan revolver in .454 Casull (can also shoot milder .45 Colt ammo). Either will make large holes in things. The 870 is also great for hunting all kinds of game, deer, ducks, etc. The Alaskan, well it is just a cannon!

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/


http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/rgrRH/

If you get a Ruger Alaskan you can also pickup a Winchester Trapper model with a very short 16" barrel. Both can fire the .45 Colt cartridge.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=003C
 
Kismet said:
I duct-tape a 1911 to my left inner thigh each night. I used to duct-tape a .44 revolver to the outer right thigh, as well, but I couldn't roll over comfortably.

It's sleeping with the dagger in my mouth that I still have to perfect.
]
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ROTFLMAO Two things jump to mind (1) Just look for the guy with no hair on one thigh, & (2) White man speak with fork-ed tongue. Sweet Jedus!
 
DGG said:
I'm of the belief that a gun is the last thing you want to have to use during a home invasion/burglery situation. Here is my 12 step program for home protection.

1st - Get some good outside spotlights positioned on the corner of your house. Put a switch in several places where ,when you flip it, the front,back and side yards are all brightly lite up. Get a light sensor and keep some low voltage lights on outside at night. The small cost of electicity is nothing compared to your safety.

2nd - Get an alarm system. There are many kinds and all price ranges. When the alarm goes off (hopefully before anyone is in the house) the suspect usually disappears. It doesn't have to be expensive and monitored. All it has to do is make noise. Of course a monitored alarm system will protect the house when you are not there.

3rd - Get a dog. They are fun to have and hunt with and they function very well as a backup alarm system. Besides the kids like them.

4th - Get phones with a one button call feature for 911.

5th - Take a firearms safety course.

6th - Take another firearms safety course.

7th - Repeat both firearms safety courses.

8th - Get a firearm. Hopefully just the sight of it is enough to intimidate the burgler and make him scoot. A shotgun is a great intimidator, IMHO.

9th - Go to the range and shoot and practice as often as possible but no less than a couple times a year. You should be able to function the firearm blindfolded. Obviously not the aiming part, but to learn where all the bells and whistles are located, how to quickly load it, how to activate and release the safety, etc.

10th - Get a gun lock of some sort so the kids can't play around with the firearm and hurt themselves when you are not around.

11th - When the kids are old enough take them to the range and teach them about gun safety. Most kids, boys especially, are very curious and receptive to this time spent with their folks.

12th - Pat yourself on the back for all the hard work and effort you put into making your home a safe and secure dwelling place for you and your family.
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I have done all of the above, but don't have locks on my guns. I keep my 1911 cocked and locked in a Gun Vault by the bed, and a Mossberg 500 loaded but without a round in the chamber downstairs.

WRT the lights, I have X10 switches throughout the house and can light up the entire perimeter with 2 carriage lights, 4 150 watt halogen floods, and dedicated 300 and 500 watt flood lights with a single bedside button. There is also a control panel that allows me to pick and choose which light to turn on. It has come in very handy a half-dozen times. This is the single best security change I have made.

I also make sure that I have at least one phone upstairs and downstairs in addition to the cordless ones, that is an old fashioned corded model in case the power is off, and is on a different phone line that the primary.

All the external doors have additional deadbolts installed, and the side garage door has a throwbolt going into the door frame on top of that. Reinforced handsets and strikers on each.

We pay for alarm monitoring and have a good alarm system.

Changes I need to make: install solid core doors on the double bedroom doors upstairs with a floor deadbolt so that it can serve as a saferoom if necessary, and get a good fore-end light for my M500. I have a SF 8X to use with my 1911, but nothing for the shotgun.

(I suppose I could have bought one less kukri in the last couple of years instead, but didn't want to go all crazy on the home preparedness kick! :D)

Also need to add one more motion detector for a blind spot in the dining room, and wire 4 of the downstairs sliding windows into the alarm. The alarm co. will have to use wireless sensors since the doors and everything else were hardwired when the house was built in '97. Just waiting for work to get this done.

I have a nice 870 that I bought from a retired CHP officer probably 15 years ago. I was going to fix it up as Wilson does, but it had such pretty wood I didn't want to make it all "tactical" looking. Some day I'll get a Wilson/Scattergun Tech 870 all tricked out. Until then the M500 keeps going and going.

Norm
 
That would make for a great film noir line - Lauren Bacall to Bogart: Is that a 1911 duct-taped to your inner thigh, or are you just glad to see me?

Eric
 
DGG,

I agree with almost everything you've said.

I heartily disagree with the concept of "intimidation factor". I don't care if a threat is intimidated. If he's leaving, I'll let him go, unless I've seen him/know he's committed a violent felony. If he's a threat, I'll shoot him.

I could care less if he's intimidated.

"He got me, Earl! But, at least I wasn't intimidated..." :D
 
Summary For Eric:

After reading this thread it is clear that you need to purchase the following for basic Home Defense:
.30 special
.357 magnum
9MM
.40
5 different 12 gauge shotguns
20 gauge shotgun
carbines
knives

Dynamite to throw at the Perp

A black capsule to swallow and take yourself out of the picture when all the above fails!

That about sums it up, I think?
 
...you need to leave a list of names behind, the small group of men of incalculatable evil who mastermind and control industry and media.


munk
 
Steve Poll said:
Summary For Eric:

After reading this thread it is clear that you need to purchase the following for basic Home Defense:
.30 special
.357 magnum
9MM
.40
5 different 12 gauge shotguns
20 gauge shotgun
carbines
knives

Dynamite to throw at the Perp

A black capsule to swallow and take yourself out of the picture when all the above fails!

That about sums it up, I think?
Click to expand...


Too funny. :D I'm pretty well set in the khukuri department, so maybe I can at least check that subcategory of "Knives" off the list.

I am very glad to have gotten the number and variety of responses to my question. Seems to me the best overall recommendation is to get something that I feel comfortable with, that I will practice with on some kind of a regular basis, that I can become proficient with, that other members of the family can operate safely and effectively (if necessary) and that minimizes the likelihood of unintended loss of life, limb or property.

Eric
 
In regards double barrels in combat....A close friend in the Detroit PD narc squad, Budda by name, once had a yen for a real short double barrel to use on dope raids. Thing was, unless you held the barrel down overhand, that solid rib would nail you right between the runnin' lights. So on this one afternoon we kick a door, confront armed resistance. Bang, pop-pop-pop, BOOM..BOOM!! pop-pop-pop. Suddenly he realizes both hands are occupied with an empty weapon, and they're still shooting at him. Sort of like the French, down goes the gun on the floor, and Budda was last seen diving over the couch! When it was all over, Budda recovered his now slightly dinged double barrel, which IIRC he later sold to a Pharmacist! Only in Detroit!

I am of the opinion that a pump, or if you must, a semiauto might be better.
 
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