First gun help

Go check out some different firearms, you got a great budget and now you need to just find one you like and buy it to start with along with plenty of ammo to practice. 9mm, .40, .45 take your pick or if going wheel gun then .38 or .357 is the most likely unless you want a .44 mag which is not very common to carry but you are a bigger guy. The p220 is a fantastic firearm and I would recommend that over the Baby eagle. CZ has some great guns similar to the eagle too that you could check out. I own a M&P that I really enjoy as well. Many good options. If you go with a revolver get a good company such as S&W (my first choice, but some other good companies too) or a Ruger. Colts are great too, but are older and can only be picked up on the secondary market. Ideal revolver carry in .357 for me is a S&W 686+ w/ 3 inch barrel. 7 shots of .357 is good to me.
 
ok. I'm hearing that the military buys up all the 5.56 quick which is weird because they have contracts why buy up the civilian market ammo
 
So it's pretty obvious that Justice (and kinda qhunter) is the only person on page 5 that understands modern ballistics and isn't just parroting the same shit they've heard in gun shops over the last half century.

Thanks for backing me up. Some things like "sawed off shotgun for home defense" is so ingrained that I could sit here and explain every little aspect of the ballistics of 5.56 and there would still be a continuous flow of people coming through favoring shotguns, and some readers may even go away believing it. I feel like it's important to get this information into the hands of people looking for the best and safest weapon to defend their homes against intruders. Most of the arguments in favor of shotguns are misconceptions - they are super effective, and if you don't have the means to purchase a quality AR they are a good backup option for some people, but head to head the AR is almost always going to be the better choice.

For me -
16" 5.56 guns: 75g Hornady TAP
5.56 SBRs: 62g Barnes TSX

I personally like 75gr TAP for shorter barreled rifles. I think I mentioned the velocity that 5.56 has to reach to fragment (it's something like 2400 FPS for 55gr M193 - which leaves the barrel of a 14.5" mil-spec rifle at 2800FPS) - and 75gr TAP will still fragment at 2100FPS. Plus, it's hollow point and you will get some expansion even if it falls below 2100. A 14" barrel will get a lot out of 5.56, but every inch under that hurts the velocity. At 8-9" it becomes about as effective as a .22, even at CQB distances. My faith in the 75gr TAP goes back to a conversation with a special forces trainer on another forum a few years ago- he said the soldiers that were issued SBRs (the MK18 and the short Colt) preferred 75gr TAP for the MK18 (10.3" SBR upper from Daniel Defense), followed by Black Hills 77gr. I looked into it, and came up with the 75gr TAP as the best round for all my rifles (although I keep 16" guns dialed in for M855 since it's most available and will do more damage to vehicles than M193 at long range).

What made you choose 62gr Barnes TSX for shorter barrels? I have shot it, but do not have a lot of experience with it.


As for why a SBR is a better choice than a shotgun, you will not penetrate ANY walls with the right combination of round and optic. It's just hard to miss with an AR at CQB distances, and once it hits a body the 5.56 round is going to be non-lethal if it exits at all. If you're going to use a gun for home defense, you should think about collateral damage before the fact. If you take a shot, it should be aimed and you should hit your target - although if the situation calls for lots of unaimed fire, you're already in a situation where litigation after the fact is the least of your concerns. Always make sure that you are between an intruder and your family - and give your family instructions they can follow to get out of the line of fire if anything ever happens. If you're really concerned, you can make a room bulletproof for anything less than .30-06 with 1" OCB board.

A shotgun is unpredictable, it offers less rounds, it's heavier and less maneuverable in most cases, and it is much harder to keep your eyes on the target while operating. You can unload an AR into a man sized target from 20 yards just as fast as you can pull the trigger and not miss a shot or be jerked enough that you lose tracking of the target with minimal training - try that with a shotgun. Don't forget the 8" temporary wound channel that a fragmenting 5.56 round makes is the most devastating wound out of the 3 options. Control, accuracy, firepower, adaptability, maneuverability, and versatility make the AR the preferred CQB weapon for most scenarios. Like Brad mentioned, there is a reason why LEO, SWAT and Military are moving to using AR variants for clearing buildings, and why shotguns are used primarily for breaching these days.
 
ok. I'm hearing that the military buys up all the 5.56 quick which is weird because they have contracts why buy up the civilian market ammo

That's not really true.

.223 is really the same as 5.56 - you can usually find the higher priced self defense rounds easily though, and they will almost always come in 5.56. They're both available locally for me right now. Even my local Wal-Mart has .223 right now. The Military pretty much has to use M855, M193, the equivalent tracer rounds, or Black Hills MK262. Only certain forces are allowed to use a wider variety of ammo (special forces, MPs, and a few other divisions that have special needs). Most U.S. Military ammo comes from Lake City.

You shouldn't have any problem finding .223 or 5.56 right now though. That can change with the political climate, but right now it's available, and relatively inexpensive
 
Wrong and super wrong.
00buck will not spread out enough at HD distances to "unable to miss".
00buck will sail through drywall like a knife through butter.
Good luck not short stroking the slide under extreme duress.

Go to any 3-gun match and observe the shooters. The vast majority of people struggle with shotgun stages because it's so easy to short stroke and so cumbersome to reload.



P-07 Duty with CGW internals. David is a master of his craft




Inside it will still be brutal. I promise
Auditory exclusion will aid you in the moment but you will have long term damage.

Life > 100% perfect hearing

I never said "be sure to put some 00buck it your shorty pump mouseburg"....lol
And every 3-gun I've shot in the last 25 years was with an auto so short stroking is not a problem. But on the other hand you do bring one point to mind and that being the international sound of get the f$&@ out of my house being that first rack of a pump...lol 1/2 oz of #9 shot spreads well from a 14" barrel with minimal penetration FYI
 
I never said "be sure to put some 00buck it your shorty pump mouseburg"....lol
And every 3-gun I've shot in the last 25 years was with an auto so short stroking is not a problem. But on the other hand you do bring one point to mind and that being the international sound of get the f$&@ out of my house being that first rack of a pump...lol 1/2 oz of #9 shot spreads well from a 14" barrel with minimal penetration FYI

We are, very clearly, at a point of fundamental disagreement.
 
so what exactly is OCB board, I know what OSB is but this bullet proof OCB board sounds like it would be cheaper than ceramic stand alone plates.

SF troops using hollow point TAP ammo?

WOW, lot of info going around in this thread.
 
so what exactly is OCB board, I know what OSB is but this bullet proof OCB board sounds like it would be cheaper than ceramic stand alone plates.

SF troops using hollow point TAP ammo?

WOW, lot of info going around in this thread.

feel free to use the quote tool so we know to whom you're speaking
 
Now that I have permission, here is what I was talking about.

so what exactly is OCB board? I know what OSB is but can't find OCB.

The other part of my first post was about the post below the quoted, SF using Hornady TAP ammo. Where? When? Who?


Thanks for backing me up. Some things like "sawed off shotgun for home defense" is so ingrained that I could sit here and explain every little aspect of the ballistics of 5.56 and there would still be a continuous flow of people coming through favoring shotguns, and some readers may even go away believing it. I feel like it's important to get this information into the hands of people looking for the best and safest weapon to defend their homes against intruders. Most of the arguments in favor of shotguns are misconceptions - they are super effective, and if you don't have the means to purchase a quality AR they are a good backup option for some people, but head to head the AR is almost always going to be the better choice.



I personally like 75gr TAP for shorter barreled rifles. I think I mentioned the velocity that 5.56 has to reach to fragment (it's something like 2400 FPS for 55gr M193 - which leaves the barrel of a 14.5" mil-spec rifle at 2800FPS) - and 75gr TAP will still fragment at 2100FPS. Plus, it's hollow point and you will get some expansion even if it falls below 2100. A 14" barrel will get a lot out of 5.56, but every inch under that hurts the velocity. At 8-9" it becomes about as effective as a .22, even at CQB distances. My faith in the 75gr TAP goes back to a conversation with a special forces trainer on another forum a few years ago- he said the soldiers that were issued SBRs (the MK18 and the short Colt) preferred 75gr TAP for the MK18 (10.3" SBR upper from Daniel Defense), followed by Black Hills 77gr. I looked into it, and came up with the 75gr TAP as the best round for all my rifles (although I keep 16" guns dialed in for M855 since it's most available and will do more damage to vehicles than M193 at long range).

What made you choose 62gr Barnes TSX for shorter barrels? I have shot it, but do not have a lot of experience with it.


As for why a SBR is a better choice than a shotgun, you will not penetrate ANY walls with the right combination of round and optic. It's just hard to miss with an AR at CQB distances, and once it hits a body the 5.56 round is going to be non-lethal if it exits at all. If you're going to use a gun for home defense, you should think about collateral damage before the fact. If you take a shot, it should be aimed and you should hit your target - although if the situation calls for lots of unaimed fire, you're already in a situation where litigation after the fact is the least of your concerns. Always make sure that you are between an intruder and your family - and give your family instructions they can follow to get out of the line of fire if anything ever happens. If you're really concerned, you can make a room bulletproof for anything less than .30-06 with 1" OCB board.

A shotgun is unpredictable, it offers less rounds, it's heavier and less maneuverable in most cases, and it is much harder to keep your eyes on the target while operating. You can unload an AR into a man sized target from 20 yards just as fast as you can pull the trigger and not miss a shot or be jerked enough that you lose tracking of the target with minimal training - try that with a shotgun. Don't forget the 8" temporary wound channel that a fragmenting 5.56 round makes is the most devastating wound out of the 3 options. Control, accuracy, firepower, adaptability, maneuverability, and versatility make the AR the preferred CQB weapon for most scenarios. Like Brad mentioned, there is a reason why LEO, SWAT and Military are moving to using AR variants for clearing buildings, and why shotguns are used primarily for breaching these days.
 
Last edited:
so what exactly is OCB board, I know what OSB is but this bullet proof OCB board sounds like it would be cheaper than ceramic stand alone plates.

SF troops using hollow point TAP ammo?

WOW, lot of info going around in this thread.

OSB board, you are probably correct. It's particle board, there are basically 2 kinds that my local hardware sells. One is referred to as plywood, the other is OSB. This comes from my own experience. There is an LGS / gunsmith in Flemingsburg KY, Sheps Gun World I believe, he constructed a target wall outside of his shop with sand sandwhiched between 2 pieces of 3/4" OSB board. I asked him about it (not even realizing its efficiency), and he explained that specific sizes of OSB board would stop any rifle round that is smaller than a .338, and slower than a 7mm Mag. I really can't give the exact dimensions, ballistics and information from the top of my head, but there has never been any apparent damage to the back of his target (of course it's a little more robust than a 1" piece of OSB - he added the sand to make the wall foolproof, it's quite overbuilt), and he got the information from somewhere, so I'm assuming that anybody could search and find it if they wanted - or take $50 to the hardware store and buy a couple pieces and test it yourself.

As for the SF troops using TAP ammo, they shoot what they can get their hands on. I can't speak to where they got it, or how easy it is for them to procure, but I do know that many SF troops fielding SBRs got their hands on a couple rounds that aren't army issue. As for the hollow point, keep in mind that the hollow point on a 5.56 round is not there for expansion, it's there for balance to stabilize the bullets in flight - but an added effect is that the bullets are heavier in the rear and when it hits a target it has even more of a tendency to yaw than even standard 5.56 (which is one of the factors in fragmentation). An added note, the ballistics of 5.56 is tricky, and different guns and ammo combinations get wildly different performance at close ranges because the bullet is NOT stabilized at first. You can get some nasty effects (and unpredictable wound channels) shooting at close range because the bullets strike at a high angle of attack.

Back to the SF Troops: the ballistics of 5.56 in shorter barrels has been a major point of contention for a while, and I've discussed it at length several times with lots of people, especially on forums. I knew that others shared the information regarding 75gr TAP being preferred by special forces, but I didn't think I could find any references. I did a quick search, and ended up finding a reference though, you can read this article in the shooting times about MK 262 mod 1, the quote is toward the bottom of the article:

I spoke with a good friend with multiple combat tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. His experiences as both a Special Forces sniper team leader and assaulter offered a unique perspective on ammo performance. As a sniper, MK 262 was his preferred round (when he was not using 7.62x51mm NATO), and he said simply, “It’s the best, most accurate round the Army has ever issued.” When carrying the shorter SBR, he ranked Hornady’s 75-grain TAP as the most lethal, followed by MK 318 and with MK 262 riding herd at third. Anything was better than M855 in a CQB environment.

“All 5.56 rounds suck out of SBRs, but MK 262 is way better than M855,” he said. “The only time M855 shines is when you are shooting through intermediate barriers like car doors.”

I will add that the other school of thought is using ultra light rounds to get higher velocities, rounds that are specifically designed to retain their terminal effects at even lower velocities - when it comes to that school of thought, the favorite is the 50gr Barnes TSX. Out of a 10.3" barrel the 50gr barnes will still be traveling at over 2,800fps at 15 yds (faster than M855 would be traveling right at the end of the barrel), and it is designed so that it will fragment at supposedly 1900fps. The problem is that the 50gr bullet limits range, is not as accurate or stable, and it hasn't been proven that the advertised ballistic properties are accurate. It also wouldn't have as high of a BC, and would likely fall short on kinetic energy, not to mention barrier penetration (like windshields and such, not walls). Barnes TSX drops petals when it travels through auto glass, and in some cases results in compromised expansion.

The military also now has the M855 A1 EPR, which has proven to be superior to classic M855, and offers much better performance in SBRs. It also has better penetration of metals, and more kinetic energy due to component makeup. I don't know a whole lot about it, but it might be something to look in to.
 
Retraction: I asked my friend about the target, and it was actually 1 3/4" OSB board, not 3/4" OSB board, and it would stop intermediate calibers in most instances, but could be weakened with multiple shots. The sand was a replacement for fire retardant rubber mulch that was used in another target, and they both worked very well (about 3-4 inches), and worked over long period of time. If you are serious about bulletproofing a wall though, it should go without saying that you probably want to invest in something like bullet resistant fiberglass, and counting on wood and rubber of your own construction on a single wall would not be a foolproof barrier for a gun wielding maniac running through your home engaged in a gunfight with an unknown weapon. The way I see it though, if you can test a barrier and it stands up to 7.62x39 and high velocity handgun rounds, and it's made out of cheap materials that are not prohibitive because of weight or cost, fixxing a corner of your child's room or closet as a safe area is better than nothing. Not everybody can afford to bullet proof their entire life like 50 cent. Still, the most effective means of controlling the chance of a stray round injuring anyone is by training to hit what you're aiming at, and strategically arranging your home and areas of entry / alert system to work to your advantage. If an intruder must travel a specific route to reach your family, you can plan ahead to take precautions and minimize the chances of a catastrophe, even in the unlikely event of a gunfight in your home with an armed intruder.

ETA-

you guys don't think it's dumb to get the dark earth anodized 6920 do you

here is a site with great pictures
http://www.onpointsupply.com/cart.p...t_id=84392&category_id=3182&mode=out_of_stock

in the end I will get a normal one if I have to but my gun shop says the anodized is just a hundred bucks more

I like the anodized 6920. I came very close to purchasing one. If you were to buy a stock 6920 that had the Rogers Super Stoc and clamshell handguard, and then added the Magpul furniture, you would probably break even. I know they sell a black one with Magpul furniture, not sure which price comparison he's doing.

Anodizing is just for looks on that model really, but it's more unique that way and I believe it will retain the extra value quite well.

I wouldn't worry about upgrading the barrel (if you're going to do something like that, just build from the ground up or something). You could improve accuracy, but it is not a good cost/value proposition in my opinion. What to do it get your Colt 6920, and as you get the opportunity buy some backup parts; a quality BCG and bolt, a spring kit, a backup LPK, and finally a backup barrel. AR barrels will shoot out between 10,000 and 30,000 rounds, depending on what type of ammo you shoot, how hot you get the barrel and the quality of the barrel. The colt barrel is chrome lined, and will last for a very very long time if you shoot copper plated ammo and not bi-metal ammo (Wolf in the gray casing, other Russian ammo). If you do, you're not going to need to replace the barrel until you shoot over $12,000 worth of ammo - which most people will never do. It would be nice to have a backup though just in case. My recommendation would be a Hammer Forged barrel from FN stock. Centurion, Spikes makes one, Noveske has some with the 2x thickness chrome lining, DD makes good CHF barrels, there are a lot of manufacturers that use the same high quality FN blanks.
 
Last edited:
i was looking dpms makes a barrel for $200. ever hear about that one?

I just want a little bit more range. not looking to shoot 1000 yards but reliable groups at 500 yards
 
i was looking dpms makes a barrel for $200. ever hear about that one?

I just want a little bit more range. not looking to shoot 1000 yards but reliable groups at 500 yards

I don't know where you are in Jersey or who you actually are but heres my advice for what it's worth.

Go someplace where you can actually look someone in the eye and ask questions and try something out instead of taking advice on a forum from a bunch of faceless posters.

Some of the advice in this thread I actually agree with, BUT as far as I can tell a lot of it has been gleaned from magazine and internet articles and gun forums.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
 
I don't know where you are in Jersey or who you actually are but heres my advice for what it's worth.

Go someplace where you can actually look someone in the eye and ask questions and try something out instead of taking advice on a forum from a bunch of faceless posters.

Some of the advice in this thread I actually agree with, BUT as far as I can tell a lot of it has been gleaned from magazine and internet articles and gun forums.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

On the flip side, sometimes nameless faceless internet guys are subject matter experts or BTDT types and the guys behind the gun counter are:
A) hired because they're people pleasers and get the store good customer survey points and don't really know more than what's on the manufacturer's tag, or
B) minimum wage great-grandpas that use their gun store job as an opportunity for human interaction, or
C) will push whatever brand they have in stock or whatever brand they get the biggest commission on.

I don't give a shit what you buy, but I'll damn sure tell you that DPMS is not in the same arena as Colt.
I don't want to paint with a broad stroke, but you seem to be.
 
Back
Top