Flaws

Anthony,

The wood issue is a good point. I have seen that too, and it really doesn't make sense to save $30 on wood when the knife goes into multi-$100's.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
This is an interesting topic. I find that most every handmade knife has a flaw or two. Some I can live with. Some I cannot........Thats why us collectors are so bummed when we get a knife with obvious issues.

I just got a beautiful knife in the mail that is beautifully made except the maker used a rather bland piece of straight, ugly wood when he had shown similar knives with knockout pieces of ironwood. The knife wasn't flawed, but the makers choice of materials soured me on the knife, so I guess that is a flaw, too.
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Let's take the semantics out of the equation, and agree that a flaw is something that bums us out about a knife, rather than "is it a flaw, is it mistake, is it a character mark?". Some are easy to fix, some are not.

Life is too short to use uninteresting wood/pearl/stag... on knives for full-price paying customers, that is a good lesson for makers, right there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It's interesting to me that this thread seems to have focused primarily on "execution flaws", that is, visible flaws in the finished knife.

What about "design flaws"? Uncomfortable handles, guards that are too short, poor balance, overly thick/thin blades and grinds, too heavy overall, etc.

I remember a period in the 80's where there were a lot of hunters made with bolsters and NO GUARDS! It blew my mind when people actually bought them.

As far as exectuion flaws, for folders, my primary concerns are smoothness of opening, zero blade play, strong detent with no play and blade centering when closed. But, that only comes after I decide that I like the design.
 
rj martin said:
What about "design flaws"? Uncomfortable handles, guards that are too short, poor balance, overly thick/thin blades and grinds, too heavy overall, etc.

I remember a period in the 80's where there were a lot of hunters made with bolsters and NO GUARDS! It blew my mind when people actually bought them.

.
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interesting I'm sure you'll want to elaborate..:) I'd hope at least :)
I'm glad you mentioned these things..and I hope you meant it as a thought to open ones mind and not to mean, there is a certain way a certain knife should be made, as in what's been made in the past is the way it should be or from a maker that is all there is, in his own mind the be all,,and knows it all and says this is the way it should be and that's it,, no if's ands or buts about it..there are makers like that out here..,,
I'm looking at this as a flaw in a makers thoughts *.. not a knife ..

if a customer orders a knife and gets it the way he wants, be it with out a guard or even one with 4" guard on top only , is it a flaw..IMHO NO..if it was made this way and with-in the design ,,,
how about a 18" bowie , if you bal it, it will be heavy or have a thin blade.. if I make a knife that is to be used up side down and one day it's sold another , and he uses it the wrong way it was intended, is it a flawed knife now??
which is right one made to the makers liken or the customers?

* a flaw to me is a unintended out come of the finished product..
 
Design flaws bother me in users but not in art knives.

Personally, I find the Terzuola ATCF (& others in the same range) nearly impossible to open one handed, but I'm not sure it's a design flaw. Same goes for (most) flippers.
 
Dan: I understand your points. If one is making something to a customer's specs, then, the customer should get what he wants, and, from his perspective, it's not flawed.

To me, a using knife that does not afford some measure of protection to the hand, be it from a guard, choil, or even a textured grip, is flawed, by design.

Just as I would consider a screwdriver with a perfectly smooth, polished metal handle to be flawed, because it would be cold in the wintertime and impossible to hold when greasy. Not to mention, too heavy. It might be sexy and pretty, but, it's not going into my toolbox.

Now, that's just my opinion, so, feel free to disagree. I am trying to expand the ideas in this thread a bit, and see where it goes.

I have no problem with an 18" bowie, BTW, and, no, it's not going to balance the same as a 10" blade, and, I wouldn't use 1/8" thick steel to try to make it do so.

My general point here is that, if you're considering a knife for an intended purpose, you should first evaluate the knife's design features as they impact it's purpose, and, then look for the workmanship issues (flaws).

No one has a perfect understanding of what constitutes a perfect design, and since we are all made differently, what works great and feels great for one person may not work at all for another.

How about a perfectly flawless knive, with substandard heat treatment?
You can't even see that...
Again, I'll take perfect heat treat and slightly asymetric grind lines any day.

Just food for thought. I totally agree with the idea that customers should understand how to really look at a knife to evaluate workmanship flaws. When I have a customer pick up a knife and look directly at the point of the knife, I always compliment them. That is a great way to quickly pick out flaws.
 
different points of view :thumbup: it's what it's all about :)

now say if that screw driver was designed that way (smooth handled) as a simple way of not to over torque a brass screw then would it be a flaw or specialized? no different then a Ti made screw driver ..the right tool for the right job..

hunting knives can be very controversial. I for one want one very small short handled one to be
maneuverable inside the animal I really don't need a guard on it,, why?
I'm not going to stab the critter, he should be dead at this point.. I do want it to be non slip and have contact points so I know where it is in my hand up in side the beast, this could be a reason knives like this sold when you didn't expect them to..?
I love to hunt and I've dressed out a lot of game in my time and I plan on many more.. I'm not poking at you,, just opening up different view points..:)
 
Wow, has this ever turned into an interesting thread that encompasses far more than I envisioned when I posted my original topic. This is a good thing as far as I am concerned. It means that it has caused people to think and to expand the original premise.

My original thought was just to comment on the fact that I found it unrealistic to expect a custom knife to be flawless/perfect just because it cost a lot of money. When it comes to functional flaws, I am far less forgiving than I am of imperfections that do not affect the function of a knife.

When discussing things like the lack of a guard on a hunting knife, is this to be considered a flaw or not? If so, are puukkos flawed in their design?

Problems with balance, folders with off centered blades or blades with play, etc., I consider to be unacceptable, not just on custom knives, but on production knives as well. These types of flaws are unacceptable, period.
 
Like so many other discussions here, first we have to define the word in question.
Will we take the dictionary defination of the word flaw as posted above?
Or will we agree that flaws are cosmetic shortcomings?
Problems with balance, folders with off centered blades or blades with play, etc., I consider to be unacceptable, not just on custom knives, but on production knives as well.
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Personally I don't consider that a flaw.
That is poor workmanship and lack of quality.

Design flaws?
Well asthetic design is a reflection of taste.
More opinion/taste driven than a matter of right and wrong.
Functional design has more of a defined dividing line, but again it is a matter of how much function one is willing to trade for either other functions or for specialty's sake.

While I choose not to purchase at the top tier, I can understand a collector wanting perfection, but can also understand a knifemaker giving it his best...and having to call the knife done at some point.
Chasing after a cosmetic imperfection could/can make things worse...
"I keep cutting it and cutting it and it is still to small"
For example one can only remove so much material when fixing a curve or contour.

As long as the knifemaker gives it the best he's got at that point in time, that's fair by me.
And if that knifemaker looks at that knife in 5 years and thinks he's way can do way better, he is on the right track.

Knifemakers and collectors...it is all about learning and growing.
 
terminology can also be a major problem as I see it..:)
I believe a flaw can't be helped but may be fixed, like a void inside wood,,
a blade that is off center, I call plain bad workmanship and CAN be helped..

it's plain to me, like a so called auto accident .
some call getting tee boned with a car an accident ,, not IMO,, it could have been avoided if someone was paying attention in most cases..unless the driver passed out of some unforeseen reason then I'd yield to calling it one...
bad workmanship and flaws are two totally different things,,, IMHO...
 
Semantics is a funny world.

As one goes up in quality, the definition of a flaw gets very specialized.

I have never seen a SR Johnson or Ron Lake knife with a flaw, as I said before in an earlier post, but you would really have to ask them if there was anything wrong with it.

I suspect they would say no........otherwise it wouldnt get going out of their shop..........so YES.......there are flawless knives, in my estimation.

They are made by a select few people who have enormous skills and even more experience..........and when you finally get to that place













your eyesight starts failing!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :p :o
 
Wow this is getting to be a great thread with allot of knowledge.

How is this..A knife is a knife first and formost,If it wont cut it is flawd,all else is cosmetic or poor design.The makers level of experience will show as he perfects the design quality and all the cosmetic mistakes,with this level of craftsmanship he/she should be allowed a better income from his work,but if the basics and heat treat never work out then the maker will never master his craft and all the cosmetic beauty and quality of design will never cover those first short coming up thus that makers knives would be considered flawed.

How many of you guys will tell the wife her makeup-hair-clothes are all perfect so you wont be any later getting to a reservation or something (when you know it isnt).....NOTHING IS ---HAS BEEN----OR EVER WILL BE "PERFECT".....Just close

Anthony,Us makers also have to pay those same taxes on our profit of the sale,thus taking even more money out of the kitty to pay bills with like everybody else that gets a pay check,Many of us pay the state sales tax ourselves at shows without passing that on to the buyer,anyone else ever notice that.

Just some more ramblings of a maker.
Bruce
 
All knifemakers make mistakes.
The diference between a knifemaker
and a good knifemaker is how they deal with
that mistake!
:D
 
Joss said:
Design flaws bother me in users but not in art knives.
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What??

If there's something wrong with the design enough that you wouldn't want to use it, why would you bother going to the extra trouble and expense to engrave it & upgrade it with fancy handle materials? To me, no matter how fancy a knife gets, above all else it should still be a functional knife.

Dan Gray said:
how about a 18" bowie , if you balance it, it will be heavy or have a thin blade..
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Nah. By this logic, a longsword couldn't possibly be balanced properly unless the blade is thinner than a piece of tinfoil. But then it sounds like you're using a different definition of balance (based solely on the balance point or somethin'?) than I am. If someone tried to balance an 18" bowie the same as a small hunting knife, then I would see that as a design flaw.
 
Hi Guys! I don't usually get on these forums much, but the one about flaws caught my eye. Reading over the post, I decided to reply to the one about Steve Dunn's knife. First let me begin by telling you that Steve is a good friend of mine and has helped me with Damascus questions many times. He has also graced some of my knives with his fine engraving. If the wide layer of steel in Steve Dunn's blade is a flaw to that blade, then might near every bladesmith in the country would have to throw almost all of their blades away, including myself. If you looked closely at bladesmith's knives at shows you would see that Damascus does vary in places on blades. As far as design goes, whose to be the judge of that. Apparently someone likes the design because Steve tells me he has several orders for similar knives. So, the judge of design should be the person picking up the tab. One other thing, someone commented that the feather is running the wrong direction. I myself have run the feathers both directions in my blades. The direction of the feather depends on which way the bird is standing when you look at it. And, that's all I have to say about that.

Harvey Dean, Mastersmith
 
Cool,
Harvey Dean is here!
Welcome Harvey, please stay and share some of your knowledge.

(POST SOME PICTURES TOO)
 
Second Anthony's post.
Welcome to Bladeforums,Mr. Harvey Dean. :thumbup: :cool:
DO stick around and share some of your knowledge.

Doug
 
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