Flaws

I dont think its that collectors should shut up and pay....but i also dont think collectors should be so bold as to assume that its as easy for them to point out a flaw as for the maker to fix/avoid it. Makers know what a perfect knife should be as clearly if not more than your average collector since they are inherent and present for every step of the process. Most collectors only see the fruit of many hours of work. its not a question of shut up and pay. No one is forcing anyone to buy a knife they dont want or forcing anyone to keep a knife they arent happy with. i think any maker on earth would prefer to have a knife returned and never resell it than have a customer posting 50 pictures of the knife they see as flawed. I think makers need to judge themselves with collectors eyes and collectors need to view customs knowing the process. if those two views come together, you have a sucessful sale. if they are at odds, either the collector needs to move on or the maker needs to work on his product, but no smart maker or collector should assume his opinion of a piece will match the others.

In writing, its known that the moment you pick your pen off the paper, you lose a right to what your words 'mean" to a reader. At the same time, when you read something, your understanding of a piece doesnt inherently prove that was the author's intent....
 
I can recognize when there is something wrong with a knife, but am not able to let the maker know how to fix it. Does that mean that I should just keep it to myself? If that is the case I would be forced to return the knife for a refund, and because I shouldn't let the maker know what I find wrong with the knife, it will be returned without any explanation as to why. The maker would then not know what was wrong and would not learn what not to do the next time.

If I was unable to point out flaws to makers, I would no longer collect knives.
 
TikTock said:
I dont think its that collectors should shut up and pay....but i also dont think collectors should be so bold as to assume that its as easy for them to point out a flaw as for the maker to fix/avoid it.
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In that case it is up to the maker to explain that to the collector. If I point out what I see to be a problem and there is an acceptable explanation as to why that problem exists, it is up to the maker to fully educate me about it.
 
OK I am Sorry Bullying was really harsh...I apologize...

I just feel that if a person is going to tell someone they are doing something wrong then they should be able to do it correctly themselves...

Josh,That is not what I meant....How many collecters do makers call for advice on how to make a knife,or fix a problem (personally I have never done that)I call another maker...See we dont want the collecters to think we are dumb or something like that:D A collecter that knows how a knife is made from experience understands more of what a maker goes through to make the knife they are criticing.

I know we are getting allot of makers out there now,The internet has made it allot easier for makers to get known or learn,If your good you will outlast some of them,but food still has to get on the table,thus some of use end up dropping out and taking other jobs and feel like we failed our dream.I dont look at the ABS as a way to make more money,but as a personal goal to say I did it,and let others know I did it.Just because a maker gets his/her JS or MS doesnt mean as much today as it did 10 years ago when there wasnt as many.

When I first got on the internet I didnt sell much as people thought my prices were to low,so I had to raise them just to sell,I am still way under the average price for my Bowies,but were I live the cost of living is allot less than other states,so I can still sell low,but have a problem with selling knives now lower than I used to and messing up any value.I have lost customers before by not raising prices,so this is a concern.

Being sick and having nothing better to do than think about this stuff is affecting the way I think,I dont mean to sound harsh or bold....Just trying to figure out were to get started back in at when I do get myself all back to normal,and somethings worry me,like is my work still going to be at the same level as it was,am I going to get bashed if it isnt,should I make knives now even though I dont see as well as I was yet and thus am afraid of making a goof up and having people say my work isnt as good...See I am Thinking to much and opening my mouth when I shouldnt :foot: :foot: :foot: :foot:

Bruce
 
Most collectors don't make any such assumption. All they can do is compare the work and pricing of one maker to that of other makers. If things are out of whack, it presents either opportunities to buy (maker is a great value), or huge red flags (maker is a poor value).
 
Bruce Evans said:
OK I am Sorry Bullying was really harsh...I apologize...

I just feel that if a person is going to tell someone they are doing something wrong then they should be able to do it correctly themselves...


Being sick and having nothing better to do than think about this stuff is affecting the way I think,I dont mean to sound harsh or bold....Just trying to figure out were to get started back in at when I do get myself all back to normal,and somethings worry me,like is my work still going to be at the same level as it was,am I going to get bashed if it isnt,should I make knives now even though I dont see as well as I was yet and thus am afraid of making a goof up and having people say my work isnt as good...See I am Thinking to much and opening my mouth when I shouldnt :foot: :foot: :foot: :foot:

Bruce
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1. No need to apologize.

2. I am not a hairdresser, but I sure as hell know if I have a screwed up haircut!:eek: Knifemaking is part talent, part skill, and part luck. If you are bad in any of those three areas, dream or no dream, maybe time to hang up the hammers.

3. If your work is good, it is good. If it is not, you can be sure that a bunch of fellow makers will gather 'round you and tell you how great you are. If you are a truly great maker, most of them won't want to talk to you, because your very presence will remind them of their many flaws.

How's that for honesty?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Keith,Like I said.I opened my mouth when I shouldnt:foot:

Collecters that are knowledgeable should point out a makers goofs when they are not happy with a knife,But to post it all over the place and bash someones name is a harsh thing if that maker doesnt have a reputation for making goof ups or is willing to fix it,But Damascus patterns cannot be fixed,that has to be a whole new knife,so I feel a buyer should look at the blade and if sees something they dont like dont buy it,maybe say something to the maker,but also realize that making Damascus patterns is not an exact science and can have many variables involved to cause a difference in patterns.
 
Josh,Guess I am a poor value,guys run when I price my knives anymore:D

Steve,I only gather round the guys that arent good,because I feel like I am one of them and I like to help them better themselves and learn something myself..But I DONT tell them they are good when they are not...

Guess I am still over thinking,I have been told by a few old timers that things have slowed down for allot of guys,so we need to just hang on and hope for the good days to make it back..

Bruce
 
Bruce Evans said:
But to post it all over the place and bash someones name is a harsh thing if that maker doesnt have a reputation for making goof ups or is willing to fix it,But Damascus patterns cannot be fixed,that has to be a whole new knife,so I feel a buyer should look at the blade and if sees something they dont like dont buy it,maybe say something to the maker,but also realize that making Damascus patterns is not an exact science and can have many variables involved to cause a difference in patterns.
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Buddy Thomason posted the picture, and asked the question.

Harvey came on and said "no, it is not a flaw, and the feather pattern depends upon where the bird is standing". He also said that it is "between the maker and BUYER", which I find rather myopic and oversimplified. It is about all the POTENTIAL buyers. Gotta' think long term!

When you charge that mid four figures for a knife it better be pretty damned close to perfect or something singular. It is not just for the cost/sale of the knife now, but down the road too.

I think that Mr. Dunn's reputation can stand up to some discussion on BladeForums, don't you, Bruce?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Bruce Evans said:
I just feel that if a person is going to tell someone they are doing something wrong then they should be able to do it correctly themselves...
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Why? Is that the standard you use when buying anything?

Collectors are not equipped to explain makers how to solve problems. On the other hand, we generally know some aspects of the market place better than the makers. We can tell you if your value is up or down, if selling your knives on the after market is possible without incurring a loss, etc. This is valuable information - this is an opportunity. Consummer brands and manufacturers pay millions to understand whether consummers like such or such features, how they differentiate their products from the competition, etc.

Makers don't go into knifemaking to make money, for them it's a calling, similar to that of a painter or a musician. Some take a completely unrealistic view: because they're "artists", they shouldn't be held to the same standards as canned soup manufacturers. And they are not - but they are held to some business standard, including the fact that some level of flaw is unacceptable. The most succesful makers understand that and are able to switch hat seemlessly from the grumpy individualist artist to the smooth and rational business person.
 
Steve,Yes Steves reputation can hang up there,But as a maker and a forger I dont feel like Damascus is flawed unless it has a bad weld.Granted different makers can make better patterns than others,but few can make the exact pattern the same exact way every single time.Mosaics are the worst for this.I like it when a patern distorts out from forging in a point and riccasso area,it shows that the maker not only forged the Damascus but also the Blade,not just cut it out of a bar.
 
Josh,We are talking customs here,not factory.If I go to the store and see something I want and it is messed up I return it,if it has a cosmetic flaw I just decide if I can live with it,or tell the store why I am returning it.But I dont run out and tell everybody that they had a bad item.

Guess it is just the way I was raised.I was always taught that if you cant do any better than the other guy dont criticize him.When I look at a craft person or artists work,I never tell them they did something wrong,unless I know I can do it better.I might ask why they made something a certain way and if I am knowledgeable I might give a suggestion.But I never say they did it wrong as they did make it and I am looking at it.

Like I have said before ,Makers and collecters need to get on a common ground with each other and work together.

Allot of makers only make 1 or 2 shows a year and the rest of the time they are in there shops by themselves with out anyone to compare there knives to or buyers to look at there work in person to make suggestions.So how is a lonely isolated maker supposed to know what will appeal to everyone and be able to sell out at a show anyway:foot:

Bruce
 
Bruce,

With all due respect, you are mistaken in several levels.

1 - Yes, those are custom knives, and the standards we collectors have for those are different than for a production piece. But we still have standards, and for a multi thousand $ piece, those standards are higher, not lower, than for a Sebenza.

2 - The Dunn bowie was used to demonstrate that reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes a flaw. It wasn't to show that Dunn delivers flawed damascus.

3 - No one is saying that when you find a flaw, you should go around telling people about it. It might be a good idea, in some cases, to tell the maker about it. Personally, I have once lost more than $1,000 on a knife that I finally decided to sell because I couldn't stand its flaws. I never went back to the maker because too much time had passed and it would only have created bad blood.

So how is a lonely isolated maker supposed to know what will appeal to everyone and be able to sell out at a show anyway.
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The short answer is "I don't care". I don't care if they use a cristal ball, their fellow makers, collectors, or their spouse. But if they try to sell a knife I deemed flawed, I don't care if it's a unique piece, I won't buy it (or I won't pay as much as I would have otherwise).

Regarding the Dunn knife, it's important to keep in mind that the maker certainly had seen this. He then took the decision to keep the blade rather than trash it or use it on a cheaper knife, and he also decided to invest a lot of time in the engraving. I think he was right - I think this isn't enough of a deffect to detract from the knife. Steven thinks he was wrong. Those are personal decisions. The right way to react is to look carefully at the knife, decide how much you'd be willing to pay for it, and see whether this is above the ask price.
 
I do not discuss problems with knives with anyone except the maker. There has never been a time when the maker didn't come through with flying colours. The only time I would consider bringing a problem to Bladeforums would be if I thought I was getting the run around from the maker. This has never happened, and because of this I have nothing but the greatest respect for every maker I have dealt with.

However, just because I can't make a better knife than one of those makers, that doesn't mean that I can't recognize unacceptable imperfections/flaws, or that I won't be critical of them. There are imperfections I can live with, and there are imperfections I couldn't live with. I would think that any maker would want these problems pointed out to them. If a maker is over sensitive about warranted criticism, they shouldn't be doing something where they have to satisfy the expectations of someone that is paying good money for something they are making.
 
There is a difference between pointing out a flaw to the maker upon receipt of the knife and going on the internet and saying:
"Hey everybody!
This knife is FLAWED!"

Not sure if that's where Bruce was going, but it goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the knifemaker selling his best efforts at that time in his career.
 
Ebbtide said:
There is a difference between pointing out a flaw to the maker upon receipt of the knife and going on the internet and saying:
"Hey everybody!
This knife is FLAWED!"
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It is practically impossible to have a valuable discussion like this, where everyone can participate, without naming SOME names, and using SOME examples.

It is certainly not personal.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
This is an interesting discussion because it shows the variability of various seasoned collectors, purveyors and makers.

No one is 100% right here and no one is 100% wrong. Steve Dunn is one of the best makers in the ABS with many happy customers, dealers and students.

It is OK if someone on this forum believes that he made an error in construction or cosmetic judgement with a particular knife. A lot of these things are judgement calls. I don't particularly like bubble gum ice cream. My son loves it. That's why Baskin has 31 flavors.

When I find a flaw on an ABS knife, I sometimes ask the maker if he thought it would pass the MS test in that condition. Usually they are honest.
That is my personal benchmark for a forged knife. If it won't pass, I won't buy.

Would the Dunn knife pass the ABS MS testing jury?

Bruce,
A maker should never take a criticism on this forum as an attack, unless it is truly derogatory or unfounded. Makers should understand that in a way that knife forums in general can be used as a free marketing research tool that can expose positives and negatives of a makers work.

Makers tend to have a hard time understanding or believing that people may not like their artistry, especially after the long hours and hard work they put into the finished product. They need to get over it and find people who do, or start making what people want. Knifemaking (or any arts/crafts trade) is not a job for the thin skinned, IMO.

Harvey, please post more often. Two of my best knives are made by you.
 
This has been an interesting thread with many different views and opinions. My hats off to you Bruce as you have held up well under heavy fire, not that I take your view on everything. :D

The experienced eye can always notice defects weather we are talking knives, classic cars, motorcycles or whatever in every example presented. It’s to the buyer’s discretion as to the severity of the condition as opposed to the price asked.

Most of my knives have Damascus blades as I’m very interested in the process and I feel it gives the maker another opportunity to show his artistic ability and adds a another degree or uniqueness to the knife.
A collector has to realize however, especially with a “design to make” or special orders, that It’s not an exact science so a pattern may or may not come out exactly as desired. As an example, I recently followed a ABS MS who is considered by most to be an innovator in Damascus patterns and one of the top in the industry in it’s creation make four blades to finally get the exact effect that he was looking for a perticular knife. Not to say that the ones he did not use for this particular knife were not very nice. The point I’m making here is that perhaps the small deviation from pattern in Steve’s bowie does not need to labeled as a “FLAW” and agreed upon by all. Just that’s it’s a characteristic of the knife that some will find acceptable and others will not. A serious discoloration or inclusion around this area would “for me” designate it as a flaw. However just for the record, I did consider this particular bowie at the show, and even though this area did not show up as drastic as the photo with the circle, it was a condition I was not willing to live with at it’s price point.

As far as posting photos of knives with “questionable conditions” for discussion and possibly hurting a maker’s feelings or making him angry, I will use Steve as an example (I may be taking a chance here as he currently has one of my knives engraving it :D ). I have examined many of Steve’s knives and have found him to be one the best engravers and makers in the industry. I’m not saying I always like his designs or every aspect of every knife, but his designs, engraving , execution, fit / finish and business ethic is top notch.
As part of a maker being celebrated as a top maker, I believe they need to be able to acknowledge and accept criticism and collectors and dealers opinions of their work gracefully. They should even value this input. In my opinion, Steve does all these.

I have learned some things as a collector from this thread and maybe changed my way of viewing some things from all the many opinions stated here. I would see no harm in posting photos here by either makers or collectors of other knives with "questionable conditions" to get views, opinions as to what is a “Flaw” and what may just be a unique characteristic of a knife.:confused:
 
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