Flaws

[Keith Montgomery]

Harvey, it is great to have your input. Please do spend more time here.

 

[B . Buxton]

I must be ignorant but I have another question. I also may have missed something along the way, I have read every post but this has turned into quite a long thread and my mind wonders from time to time with all this reading.

But if you think a knife has a design or any other kind of flaw, why would you buy it in the first place? There's tons of great knives and great makers to choose from, why pick and buy something you don't like? Also I know that when buying and selling knives over the internet its tough to know exactly what your getting until you get it in your hands, so why buy from someone that doesn't offer an inspection period and return policy?

Thats all, Thanks,

Bill

 

[Kohai999]

But if you think a knife has a design or any other kind of flaw, why would you buy it in the first place? There's tons of great knives and great makers to choose from, why pick and buy something you don't like?

Good question, Bill.

The answer comes down to hype, salesmanship and the illusion of satisfaction, especially for newbies.

Like I said, on the first page, I think, the more knives you look at the more flaws you see. Mildly bad grinds are just not something that newbies have a tendency to notice, or pits, or less than perfect joint soldering.

Some knifemakers have their salesmanship down to a "T". Not saying that this is bad, it is actually a good skill to have, but many buyers fall for it without asking themselves tough questions.

The flavor of the month is always hard to resist.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Dan Gray]

What??

Nah. By this logic, a longsword couldn't possibly be balanced properly unless the blade is thinner than a piece of tinfoil. But then it sounds like you're using a different definition of balance (based solely on the balance point or somethin'?) than I am. If someone tried to balance an 18" bowie the same as a small hunting knife, then I would see that as a design flaw.

hey hey easy on me you didn't quote the whole story

Originally Posted by rj martin
What about "design flaws"? Uncomfortable handles, guards that are too short, poor balance, overly thick/thin blades and grinds, too heavy overall, etc.
I remember a period in the 80's where there were a lot of hunters made with bolsters and NO GUARDS! It blew my mind when people actually bought them.

I mentioned that because of the above ,, Bal was mentioned as a point of a flaw. not by me
also sweet spots and bal points are two different animals IMO as a term the bal I feel is in the eye of the be-holder I've had hunter commissions that was meant to be front heavy per request..

 

[Keith Montgomery]

But if you think a knife has a design or any other kind of flaw, why would you buy it in the first place?

One reason that I think some people end up with knives they considered flawed is that it isn't always easy to return a knife to the maker for repairs. As an example, I live in Canada and order most of my knives from the US. There is a substantial cost to sending a knife back, plus there is the chance of the knife being damaged, lost or stolen in shipping. When deciding whether to ship the knife back, the seriousness of the flaw has to be taken into consideration. If it is something major, then yes, I would send it back. If it is something minor, is it worth sending it back?

One thing I have gotten from this thread is that I should not consider slight imperfections that are part and parcel of something being handmade, as even minor flaws. When something is referred to as being flawed, that means there is something wrong with it. These slight imperfections are many times just visual and have no affect on the functionality of the knife whatsoever.

 

[B . Buxton]

Keith I understand what you mean about shipping knives being expensive, and the possiblities of them getting damaged, lost or stolen. In country that should not be a question as insurance can be purchased. But as you stated for out of country, return or some sort of partial refund should be agreed upon by the maker before the final purchase is made, then if the piece is unacceptable upon delivery the customer has options. I myself would want the piece back, so I could see what the flaws were and then try not to make tha same mistakes twice.

One thing I have gotten from this thread is that I should not consider slight imperfections that are part and parcel of something being handmade, as even minor flaws. When something is referred to as being flawed, that means there is something wrong with it. These slight imperfections are many times just visual and have no affect on the functionality of the knife whatsoever.

I look at it this way, but I'm no collector either.
I can understand obvious flaws in fit/finish/grinds as a shown lack of experience, knowledge or even lack of caring by some, not acceptable.

But to say anything manmade is without flaws is (and this is just my opinion) idiotic. The only things without flaws are made from a much higher being and most of the time in man's judge mental and jealous ways of being experts, they even see flaws in the originals.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder until some wantabe know-it-all comes along and belittles it because its not his. We all have different tastes in what we will accept as acceptable, that’s what keeps this profession advancing, so one mans flaws are another mans treasures.
Now if you can stuff a cat through that guard/blade joint or the tip of the blade points east when your facing south that’s another story.

All we can do is our best and hope to learn and improve with each and every piece we produce..

Again these are just my throughts.

Thank you,

Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

Keith I understand what you mean about shipping knives being expensive, and the possiblities of them getting damaged, lost or stolen. In country that should not be a question as insurance can be purchased. But as you stated for out of country, return or some sort of partial refund should be agreed upon by the maker before the final purchase is made, then if the piece is unacceptable upon delivery the customer has options. I myself would want the piece back, so I could see what the flaws were and then try not to make tha same mistakes twice.

One thing I have gotten from this thread is that I should not consider slight imperfections that are part and parcel of something being handmade, as even minor flaws. When something is referred to as being flawed, that means there is something wrong with it. These slight imperfections are many times just visual and have no affect on the functionality of the knife whatsoever.

I look at it this way, but I'm no collector either.
I can understand obvious flaws in fit/finish/grinds as a shown lack of experience, knowledge or even lack of caring by some, not acceptable.

But to say anything manmade is without flaws is (and this is just my opinion) idiotic. The only things without flaws are made from a much higher being and most of the time in man's judge mental and jealous ways of being experts, they even see flaws in the originals.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder until some wantabe know-it-all comes along and belittles it because its not his. We all have different tastes in what we will accept as acceptable, that’s what keeps this profession advancing, so one mans flaws are another mans treasures.
Now if you can stuff a cat through that guard/blade joint or the tip of the blade points east when your facing south that’s another story.

All we can do is our best and hope to learn and improve with each and every piece we produce..

Again these are just my throughts.

Thank you,

Bill

I agree
added again
the knives should be returnable, or I'd wonder why not??
it's only good PR as I see it..

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Every maker that I have ever dealt with has told me that if I was not 100% happy with my knife that they would take it back no questions asked, or fix up any problems to my satisfaction.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Every maker that I have ever dealt with has told me that if I was not 100% happy with my knife that they would take it back no questions asked, or fix up any problems to my satisfaction.

There is no reason that this shouldn't be the policy of every custom knifemaker on the planet. If you are a maker and won't do this, that's just bad business period.
Scott

 

[shaldag]

I agree with the preceding posts about custom knifemaker's return and service policy. I'll give a recent example of one such, without mentioning a name.

I have a folder, made by a maker to my specifications. This folder is carried almost daily (in a pouch). The scales on the folder are mammoth bark ivory (and of course I know all the possible problems with this material--but I like ivory).

To get to the point, one of the scales was developing a patina in an uneven way, so that the ivory was discoloring in a way that the scale showed a "dark spot". I shipped the knife back to the maker, and he:

1. made a new set of scales out of beautiful mastodon ivory.
2. screwed the original scales down onto a piece of steel, so that they would keep their shape, and so I could leave them out in the air-- so that they could develop an even patina. He also sent me the appropriate tool for changing the scales when I wish to do so.

I had explained to the maker (who is actually kind of a busy guy) that I know that this problem was no fault of his, and that if he could not do anything, it would not influence my decision to do business with him in future. He did this work in record time, and the amount that he charged, in my estimation, barely covered the cost of the new ivory.

This is the kind of service that one receives from a custom maker in my experience. I have never received a knife with a flaw that would cause me to return it for service, but I would imagine that the knifemakers that I deal with would be more bothered by the idea of me carrying one of their knives that is flawed than I would. One could only hope for such an attitude from the other business people with which we deal with every day.

 

[jdm61]

Harvey Dean in the hizzouse......killer:thumbup: Rant forthcoming........My comment is that a lot of guys get REAL close. Mr. Dean is one of them, IMHO. Of the knives that I own, my little Mark Sentz folder is darn near flawless. My Jerome Anders bowie, little prototype teeny bowie by the esteemed Mr. Dean and a few others are darn close too. I'm holding a Jim Walker bowie that I just got and it it not perfect because it has sheep horn handles and THEY do not arrive perfect from the "factory" because the lazy sheep must have been in the United Brotherhood of Animals going to a Gruesome Death to Provide Cheap Cuts of Meat, Sausage Casing and Knife Handle Materiel, Local 237 ,and knew he couldn't be fired for not growing perfectly smooth and symetrical horns But is is perfect for me and i will rip Jim off unmercifully...lol (you too, Harvey ).:thumbup: As for the comment regarding Steve Dunn's knife, this is pattern welding here folks. If you want perfect patterns, go to Laura Ashley I have a 1960's small Lime Kiln Moran Airman fighter and let me tell you, it is FAR from perfect. An ugly little spud if the truth be told. :thumbup: But let me tell you....when the opportunity arose to purchase the "imperfect" knife that Bill donated for the Reno raffle last year, I jumped on it and will wallow in its imperfection for many years. Did anyone else notice that the knife that appeared earlier in this post, while quite nice even with the "flaw", still was a knife done in the "style" of Bill Moran. Doesn't have the same vibe. Bill's stuff had an almost "organic" quality or "soul" if you will that may be lost to some degree in our quest for CNC machine-like perfection. I once read a comment that there had never been a perfect airplane, but the DC3 was a close as anyone had ever gotten. The guys that have been around this biz a lot longer than I seem to be in general agreement that there was one knifemaker who made the equivelant of the DC3 and that was D.E. Henry,particularly in his 3rd and 4th generation bowies. People are still trying to match his level of fit and finish and from what I hear, having a damn hard time doing it. With the 8 month layoff that I had to take this past year, I have been trying to make knives for about a year total. I'm freaked out enough after seeing the work that you guys and the other top knifemakers put out. Don't lay no more QC voodoo on me, man. I just got to the point where i don't have to throw away 90%of the blades that I start because I screw up the plunge cuts. By the way, Mr. Dean......great video. You and my new KMG variable speed saved my bacon So chill out on the "perfection " jive and let me get my anxiety levels down to a point where I feel comfortable at least asking Ginsu 2 prices for some of my work:grumpy: That is all.

 

[Kohai999]

As for the comment regarding Steve Dunn's knife, this is pattern welding here folks. If you want perfect patterns, go to Laura Ashley I have a 1960's small Lime Kiln Moran Airman fighter and let me tell you, it is FAR from perfect. An ugly little spud if the truth be told. :thumbup: But let me tell you....when the opportunity arose to purchase the "imperfect" knife that Bill donated for the Reno raffle last year, I jumped on it and will wallow in its imperfection for many years. Did anyone else notice that the knife that appeared earlier in this post, while quite nice even with the "flaw", still was a knife done in the "style" of Bill Moran. Doesn't have the same vibe. Bill's stuff had an almost "organic" quality or "soul" if you will that may be lost to some degree in our quest for CNC machine-like perfection.

1. I have a Kevin Cashen small sword in a twist pattern with a 28" blade. There are no "glaring" flaws in this pattern, and last I heard, Kevin does not work for Laura Ashley. This is just an example. I highly disagreed and took exception to Harvey's response on the Dunn "flaw". There is a BIG difference between a glaring pattern deviation and a subtle shift.

2. Thanks for waking up to the thread, last updated over a month ago, welcome!

3. Moran will NEVER be heralded as a precise smith. He was a nice guy, and help create and promote the ABS. He was the "unofficial" face of the forged blade, and frankly, he made elevated folk art. I have handled 100's of Moran knives, and found exactly 2 to be of superior quality.

4. If you cannot handle the stress of having your work picked to death, than perhaps you could keep it as a hobby, and enjoy that. G_d knows there are far too many mediocre makers trying to eke out a living as it is.

Rant on, Brother Apprentice!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

1. I have a Kevin Cashen small sword in a twist pattern with a 28" blade. There are no "glaring" flaws in this pattern, and last I heard, Kevin does not work for Laura Ashley. This is just an example. I found Harvey's response on the Dunn "flaw" to be nonsense. There is a BIG difference between a glaring pattern deviation and a subtle shift.

2. Thanks for waking up to the thread, last updated over a month ago, welcome!

3. Moran will NEVER be heralded as a precise smith. He was a nice guy, and help create and promote the ABS. He was the "unofficial" face of the forged blade, and frankly, he made elevated folk art. I have handled 100's of Moran knives, and found exactly 2 to be of superior quality.

4. If you cannot handle the stress of having your work picked to death, than perhaps you could keep it as a hobby, and enjoy that. G_d knows there are far too many mediocre makers trying to eke out a living as it is.

Rant on, Brother Apprentice!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Folk art like, ohhhhh...Chuck Berry. Everone plays more precisely, shreds more vigorously and stays in tune a LOT better and yet everyone cops his guitar licks, lyrics, phrasing, singing style, etc, etc. Same with Mr. Bill and some others like Al Pendray. (now i do exclude some guys who just got greedy and lazy, like Picasso did later in life.......I have a large bowie made by a very famous proponent of the large bowie as the ultimate combat knife that has that problem.......I ain't gonna mention any names, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out)) You can copy them.....kinda........and make it cleaner, louder, faster and more in tune, but alas, you are still copping the opening lick to Johhny B. Goode, figuratively speaking. Maybe to a fault, but their it is. As for the hobby, that is what it is and always will be to me. I can't support my lavish lifestyle as it is, much less on a knifemaker's wages....lol. I have not had what little work I have shown picked to death. This is all in my pointy little cranium. I have set the bar a bit too high maybe, but what can you do?

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

If you cannot handle the stress of having your work picked to death, than perhaps you could keep it as a hobby, and enjoy that. G_d knows there are far too many mediocre makers trying to eke out a living as it is.

Maybe we can put this on a sticky?

 

[David Schott]

Mediocre makers can eke out a living? if they can make a living of any kind making knives beyond a part-time hobby or spare cash, they cant be THAT mediocre, can they? Overpriced, maybe....

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I think the key word was trying to eke out a living.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Just finished reading this entire thread. Great stuff Keith.....
As always, many ways to view things.

 

[Bruce Evans]

I believe that a person that feels they are knowledgeable enough to BASH another persons work should also be knowledgeable enough to SHOW that person how to fix the problem Good makers with allot of talent can be ruined by bully type collecters that degrade the makers work when he is doing his best at that present moment in time,quiet suggestions on how he could be better is much more acceptable to a maker and will help him make better knives instead of giving up.Makers will not show the bully's there work anymore when others like the work they are making,You know why would you want to show someone your stuff when they just ruin an otherwise good day who likes a boss that bullies them all the time when a good boss helps them learn what they did wrong.......

On another note,Collecters who are fussing about us makers prices need to think about something.....If we cannot raise our prices how the heck do you think our knives will grow in value for you if you want to resell it

Just my 2 cents worth of rambling,
Bruce

 

[Kohai999]

I believe that a person that feels they are knowledgeable enough to BASH another persons work should also be knowledgeable enough to SHOW that person how to fix the problem

On another note,Collecters who are fussing about us makers prices need to think about something.....If we cannot raise our prices how the heck do you think our knives will grow in value for you if you want to resell it

Just my 2 cents worth of rambling,
Bruce

1. Bruce-I frequently show makers in a gentle way how to make something better. I also tend to meet force with force, if you met me, "Bully" is probably not what you would think.

While I value and consider many makers friends, there are too many makers right now, and not enough collectors. Until that changes, if it ever does......well, sayonara to those that cannot make it fiscally. The ABS is certainly turning out JS's quicker than collectors are coming to the market.

2. The relationship between cost of the knife and aftermarket value are not very related. In this, you are confused. It has more to do with a) desireabilitry of knife, b) difficulty in getting it. Examples- Both Phil Boguszewski and Kit Carson sell their knives for around $500.00.

They sell for triple that on the aftermarket. Why? Desireablity and difficulty of obtaining.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Joss]

I believe that a person that feels they are knowledgeable enough to BASH another persons work should also be knowledgeable enough to SHOW that person how to fix the problem

So collectors should just shut up and pay, right? Only makers are allowed to criticize each others' work?

On another note,Collecters who are fussing about us makers prices need to think about something.....If we cannot raise our prices how the heck do you think our knives will grow in value for you if you want to resell it

Obviously anyone who already has a number of pieces from a given maker won't mind if the maker's prices increase, because it does make their collection more valuable (assuming the maker still sells at the higher price). However, people who are working on their collection - thinking to buy rather than sell - are going to have to pay more. Mature investors know that, but no one likes the idea of paying 50% more than what their buddy paid 2 years ago. That's a completely natural reaction.

As a side note, very few collectors expect their collection to rise in value. Some are lucky or have the right foresight to make a decent return, but anyone who expects the value of their knives to go up over time is in for a very bumpy ride. With this said, price increase on the aftermarket do occur despite lack of price increase on the primary market. A lot of makers sell their knives for less than the knives can fetch on the after market (Ken Onion, Kit Carson, etc, etc).