Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Name 10 to start(that would be enough to say "lots").
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
-
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Friction Forged test blade
- Thread starter Phil Wilson
- Start date
Name 10 to start(that would be enough to say "lots").
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Cliff, I don't know much about 1095 or have that much experience with A2 for that matter. I do know and have had experience with S90V and 10V finished very hard on thin geometries without adequeate tempering. If I am making a knife for my own use then it is different. But if I am making a knife to sell I have to be more consersative. I am worried about chipping and popping out a blade section from someone twisting or chopping. In these comparisons I am doing I am trying to test knives (test for edge holding on rope ) that were made to a purpose and hopefully optomized to that purpose. Don't know what else to say here about that..... Phil
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I did get some more rope yesterday. I got it at Lowe's thanks to a tip from Sodak. It is 5/8 inch 3 strand with no tracer. Cost was $.50 per foot. It may be that such a large supplier buys this rope in huge quanities and with a large enough batch then rope sold in Ca. may be the same at that sold somewhere else. For those who have been thinking about cutting some rope, this may be as close to a standard as we can get.. Phil
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Phil,
When you cut the rope, is having the rope flatten out during the cut a concern? Do you tape the ends, or if not how far from the end do you cut?
I got some of the same & a few cuts brought this question to mind. These rope cutting tests are great for head to head knife cutting comparisons.
Thanks
When you cut the rope, is having the rope flatten out during the cut a concern? Do you tape the ends, or if not how far from the end do you cut?
I got some of the same & a few cuts brought this question to mind. These rope cutting tests are great for head to head knife cutting comparisons.
Thanks
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- 17,562
What are they chopping on with such small knives anyway? In regards to twisting, the harder knives will actually be more resistant to damage. Yes they are likely to snap at the edge but the softer ones will just ripple under much lower strain anyway. Have you had problems with returns with harder blades in the past?
-Cliff
-Cliff
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Cliff, I have had problems with 3 knives. The first one was 90V at 61, that I sent to Rabbi Yurman a Kosher butcher in NY. He used it at work and managed to pop a dime size chip out of the blade when prying a joint. Since then I have reduced the hardness to 60 and have no more CPM 90v blades back. I did not get a blade back but got a complaint from an outfitter in Colorado who has a CPM 10v blade at 64. He broke the tip and chipped out a small pc. caping an elk head working against the bone. The last was a fillet knife with S30V. It is RC 62, I was doing some of the first ones harder than I do now. He sent it back to me. About 3 inches of the blade was very badly chipped and broken. Wouldn't admitt it but obvious to me he was chopping a fish back bone. I now do fillet blades at 60. PHIL
Broos good questions. I was thinking for myself I may drill a hole in the end of a 2x4 and feed the rope through that. I was thinking there would be no cutting board effect, and more important my hold hand wouldn't get as tired holding the rope. Is that cheating?
Phil,
I probably shouldnt admit this. This shows that I am more of a knife abuser rather than proper user. I received the first FFD2 prototype about one year ago. I used it like I typically used my knives. I used it to: chop the legs and wings off of my pheasant and chukar (it cut the bone rather than crushed the bone), clean fish and chop the heads and tails off, chop small pieces of wood, and a myriad of other tasks. I also used it as a uh um.. wood chisel (I couldnt locate my dedicated wood chisel). After one year, it would barely (required pressure) shave the hair on my arm. However, there were no chips, cracks or dings on the edge.
Although the geometry of this prototype blade is more suitable for skinning (Charles quickly reminded me of that when I informed him of the testing I had done), it performed very well even under heavy utilization. I am not divulging this to encourage you to chop away with your FFD2 knife. Just stating it to say that I was fairly happy with the performance under the conditions I put it through.
TN
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Cliff may have me on ignore(a badge of honor
) will someone else (db, Broos, Hardheart....anyone) please ask Cliff to name 10 makers who run 1095/M2 very thin at full hard, like he stated?If he is not held accountable for statements like this, he will keep making them.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Glad you found the rope Phil. That's exactly what I've been using for my testing. The way that your knife is performing (CPM 10V at 64ish and thin), I might end up spending more on rope than the knife in order to dull it. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but am *very* happy with the performance of this blade.
I'm going to be butchering a hog in August, and I'll be using this knife and another for a fun test. I'm afraid I'll run out of hog before I run out of sharp edge. I'll try and have someone take pictures.
Kohai999, I'm one of those who use 65 - 66 HCR M2 HSS. These are handmade knives that were a gift from a fellow poster on rec.knives. The stock material is thin, but because they are convexed at roughly midpoint to edge, the primary grind is thicker than I'd like. I have a batch of these HSS power hacksaw blades that I want to make for myself, but finding the time has been impossible so far. I'm having a hard enough time doing rope testing, which I've promised to certain people and haven't yet finished. The edge holding on these has been extreme, not too far behind the CPM 10V blade, but I'm still quantifying them. Or trying to. Basically, Phil's knife pretty much beats everything in my collection, and these M2 blades come in second. Pretty much everything else I have comes in third or less, but like I said, I'm still trying to standardize my measurements. I'm also having a lot of trouble getting ZDP to "bite" into my rope, it tends to slide off, I think my edges are too polished.
Anyway, I would be happy to send you one of these M2 blades if you would like to test drive it. It really does make the comparisons interesting.
Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but am *very* happy with the performance of this blade.I'm going to be butchering a hog in August, and I'll be using this knife and another for a fun test. I'm afraid I'll run out of hog before I run out of sharp edge. I'll try and have someone take pictures.
Kohai999, I'm one of those who use 65 - 66 HCR M2 HSS. These are handmade knives that were a gift from a fellow poster on rec.knives. The stock material is thin, but because they are convexed at roughly midpoint to edge, the primary grind is thicker than I'd like. I have a batch of these HSS power hacksaw blades that I want to make for myself, but finding the time has been impossible so far. I'm having a hard enough time doing rope testing, which I've promised to certain people and haven't yet finished. The edge holding on these has been extreme, not too far behind the CPM 10V blade, but I'm still quantifying them. Or trying to. Basically, Phil's knife pretty much beats everything in my collection, and these M2 blades come in second. Pretty much everything else I have comes in third or less, but like I said, I'm still trying to standardize my measurements. I'm also having a lot of trouble getting ZDP to "bite" into my rope, it tends to slide off, I think my edges are too polished.
Anyway, I would be happy to send you one of these M2 blades if you would like to test drive it. It really does make the comparisons interesting.
Cliff, you've raised a lot of interesting metal-related points on this thread and many others that run counter to what seems to be the conventional wisdom in the knife building world. Have you given any thought to designing a knife, finding a builder who is willing to build it to your specifications, and having a couple of copies made for people to test? Obviously you'd want to be present for any phases that you deem critical to verify that everything is done to your specifications. It seems like this would be a relatively straight forward way of proving that what looks good in your laboratory holds up under real life working conditions. FWIW
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Sodak,
Thank you very much for the offer. Testing of your knife is not necessary for me....I believe you. I believe much of what Cliff says, in terms of my own personal experiences, and observations.
That does not change the fact that he made a statement..."lots", which is very generalized, and I have requested specifics.....10 makers. It is a reasonable request, don't you think?
The BYU boys have been very specific with answers, with what they have, and have not done. Cliff has been vague and obscure, and it is very frustrating for me....is it not frustrating for you?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Hi Kohai999,
No problem, it's just that every once in a while, it's nice to use something completely different just for fun. If you ever change your mind and want to see for yourself, just shoot me an email. These knives have a cord wrapped handle, so extended rope cutting with them can be torture.
Yes, I think the "Boys from BYU" (is that a trademark?) have brought a tremendous amount to the table. After seeing their thoughtful responses and in depth analysis, I'm impressed. When this first erupted, I was a little wary thanks to past posts by people that weren't sincere, but I think they have proven beyond all doubt that they are sincere, and their efforts are geniune. They definitely have done their research and know their math and science!
It has been informative to see the back and forth of hypothesis testing and adjusting of test methods. I enjoy seeing people challenging each other's assumptions and results, but only when it is in the spirit of advancing the science. Personal attacks turn me off, and I share your frustration. As far as I'm concerned, the BFBYU (you send me a nickel each time you use that) have *more than* earned my respect, and I read and carefully re-read what they post. There's always something there for me to learn and teach me to think more critically.
It's been icing on the cake reading posts from others such as Phil do their testing. While I've never had the pleasure of meeting Phil in person, I've read a lot of his work and have learned a great deal from him. Having done some rope cutting myself, I can appreciate how time consuming it is.
I can't wait for these to hit the market, I will be salivating to try one!
No problem, it's just that every once in a while, it's nice to use something completely different just for fun. If you ever change your mind and want to see for yourself, just shoot me an email. These knives have a cord wrapped handle, so extended rope cutting with them can be torture.
Yes, I think the "Boys from BYU" (is that a trademark?) have brought a tremendous amount to the table. After seeing their thoughtful responses and in depth analysis, I'm impressed. When this first erupted, I was a little wary thanks to past posts by people that weren't sincere, but I think they have proven beyond all doubt that they are sincere, and their efforts are geniune. They definitely have done their research and know their math and science!
It has been informative to see the back and forth of hypothesis testing and adjusting of test methods. I enjoy seeing people challenging each other's assumptions and results, but only when it is in the spirit of advancing the science. Personal attacks turn me off, and I share your frustration. As far as I'm concerned, the BFBYU (you send me a nickel each time you use that) have *more than* earned my respect, and I read and carefully re-read what they post. There's always something there for me to learn and teach me to think more critically.
It's been icing on the cake reading posts from others such as Phil do their testing. While I've never had the pleasure of meeting Phil in person, I've read a lot of his work and have learned a great deal from him. Having done some rope cutting myself, I can appreciate how time consuming it is.
I can't wait for these to hit the market, I will be salivating to try one!
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Broos, This rope cutting thing was invented by Wayne Goddard. He has been doing it since the 70’s. I have modified it a little to better fit what I do. Here is how I do it:
The cutting block is Alder wood. Pine or Redwood or other soft wood would work just as well. The scale I have is a heavy duty postal scale for packages. A bathroom scale will work ok also. The ideal set up would be load cell hooked up to a digital read out with a recorder. I may get around to building one of these some day. I put a leather pad between the scale and wood block so the wood won’t slip. I just hold the rope with the left hand and slice through the rope down to the board. The dulling is due to the rope and a small part due to the contact with the board. The rope does tend to flatten and separate at the higher loads but I cut at a slight angle to sort of “roll” the rope tighter. I have tried taping the rope but then you have to contend with the effects of the sticky stuff. When the scale gets up to the load limit I ask someone to help me read the scale. With forces up near 25 to 30 lbs the reading is a little bouncy especially as the blade cuts though one strand and contacts another below it. Readings will go 27, 28, 27, 30, 28, 27, 27, 30, 28, 32, 28, 30, 29, 33, 30, 30, and 32; At that point it is averaging out at 30 so I stop. I try to error a little on the high side so I know I got at least 30. The error could be as much as 10 to 14 cuts. If you do this enough you will see what I mean. The best technique is to cut with two knives and alternate with 10 cuts at a time. As you do this check the sharpness with your thumb or other method you like. You can feel the blade gradually loose bite and feel the smooth spot start to form as the pressure goes up. Like I stated earlier I am looking for large differences.
The sharpening stone I use is a 12 inch Norton Combination, Crylstalon, India. Sharpen with the Crystalon ( Silicon Carbide) and take of the wire edge with the India (Alum. Oxide). I use dollar store Windex for cutting lube. These stones are available at Trugrit.com. You can sharpen a knife to cut rope. You can tell if you got it right with the first few cuts. It makes what I call a “scrunchy” sound. Sharpening is probably the largest variable and hardest to control if you do it by hand. This does take a lot of time and also is hard on the hands and wrist. It eats up a lot of rope and the cost of rope is significant. I have learned a lot doing this. Mostly about hardness/toughness, edge geometry, sharpening, and predicting how a knife is going to perform in the field. Phil
The cutting block is Alder wood. Pine or Redwood or other soft wood would work just as well. The scale I have is a heavy duty postal scale for packages. A bathroom scale will work ok also. The ideal set up would be load cell hooked up to a digital read out with a recorder. I may get around to building one of these some day. I put a leather pad between the scale and wood block so the wood won’t slip. I just hold the rope with the left hand and slice through the rope down to the board. The dulling is due to the rope and a small part due to the contact with the board. The rope does tend to flatten and separate at the higher loads but I cut at a slight angle to sort of “roll” the rope tighter. I have tried taping the rope but then you have to contend with the effects of the sticky stuff. When the scale gets up to the load limit I ask someone to help me read the scale. With forces up near 25 to 30 lbs the reading is a little bouncy especially as the blade cuts though one strand and contacts another below it. Readings will go 27, 28, 27, 30, 28, 27, 27, 30, 28, 32, 28, 30, 29, 33, 30, 30, and 32; At that point it is averaging out at 30 so I stop. I try to error a little on the high side so I know I got at least 30. The error could be as much as 10 to 14 cuts. If you do this enough you will see what I mean. The best technique is to cut with two knives and alternate with 10 cuts at a time. As you do this check the sharpness with your thumb or other method you like. You can feel the blade gradually loose bite and feel the smooth spot start to form as the pressure goes up. Like I stated earlier I am looking for large differences.
The sharpening stone I use is a 12 inch Norton Combination, Crylstalon, India. Sharpen with the Crystalon ( Silicon Carbide) and take of the wire edge with the India (Alum. Oxide). I use dollar store Windex for cutting lube. These stones are available at Trugrit.com. You can sharpen a knife to cut rope. You can tell if you got it right with the first few cuts. It makes what I call a “scrunchy” sound. Sharpening is probably the largest variable and hardest to control if you do it by hand. This does take a lot of time and also is hard on the hands and wrist. It eats up a lot of rope and the cost of rope is significant. I have learned a lot doing this. Mostly about hardness/toughness, edge geometry, sharpening, and predicting how a knife is going to perform in the field. Phil
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TN, I think you just made my point about the FFD2 blade being optomized for the best edge thickness and hardness. It cuts great like it is, holds a great edge and can still hold up to what ever abuse the general knife buying public might infilct on it. Even if the user is aware of the limitations a thinner harder blade might have he could still lend it to someone who isn't aware. Just leave one of your good hunting knives in the kitchen and see what happens. That's why my testing right now is with the blade as furnished. Maybe later I will thin it out and see what those limits are. Phil
Cliff Stamp
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For the impact work, you can increase the toughness with an increased draw (or lower austenization temp). However for prying, making it softer will increase the chance of damage, not decrease it. The same dime sized chip on a softer blade would be a larger rippled edge. This is just an issue of tensile strength.
Of course a softer blade will take a bend where a harder tip will break as people will stop prying with the tip under a given angle generally vs a force. Your 420HC kitchen knife suffered a bent tip for example where a typical japanese knife just has the tip snap off under similar prying loads.
What you have described is actually in the works as I noted some time ago when I asked for volunteers for a test group. Some blades have already been designed and are in stages of being made.
I use knives "in real life" far more that what is described under the quantitative testing I do. I also send many of the blades out to other individuals to confirm the work I do and correlate the performance to various aspects of use by individuals with different levels of skill and physical ability.
-Cliff
Cobalt
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2,771 is a fantastic number of cuts.
However, I cant relate very well to the number of push cuts because there was no mention of any comparisons made with other blades.
I and those who test with me are interested primarily in the working hunting knife. I established a standard test knife shape 30-plus years ago. All our tests have been focused on comparing knives of the same shape, blade length, cross section and degree of sharpness at the start. We believe that a slicing cut on rope is the best way to test cutting endurance. We most usually cut with two knives on the same day, one of known value, the other the knife being tested. Cutting with the knife of known value will show us if the rope, sharpening or other factors have changed, thus throwing the current test results off. One test will be made with the knife of known value; three tests will be made with the test knife with the average of the tests being recorded.
The DiamondBlade Traditional Hunter is the same general shape as the test knives that we obtained the majority of our results from. 4 blade, 1/8 thick at the back, flat ground to .015-.020. Some tests are done with hollow ground blades using 16 and larger wheels or shaped platens. Thin at the edge will always cut longer than thicker. We mark off a section of blade (usually approximately 3) and stay within the lines in order to use the same length of edge with all knives. Every effort is made to fairly test each knife to the same predetermined degree of dullness, that is where the edge loses its bite in the rope, and that's the same point where it will no longer shave hair.
Wayne G
However, I cant relate very well to the number of push cuts because there was no mention of any comparisons made with other blades.
I and those who test with me are interested primarily in the working hunting knife. I established a standard test knife shape 30-plus years ago. All our tests have been focused on comparing knives of the same shape, blade length, cross section and degree of sharpness at the start. We believe that a slicing cut on rope is the best way to test cutting endurance. We most usually cut with two knives on the same day, one of known value, the other the knife being tested. Cutting with the knife of known value will show us if the rope, sharpening or other factors have changed, thus throwing the current test results off. One test will be made with the knife of known value; three tests will be made with the test knife with the average of the tests being recorded.
The DiamondBlade Traditional Hunter is the same general shape as the test knives that we obtained the majority of our results from. 4 blade, 1/8 thick at the back, flat ground to .015-.020. Some tests are done with hollow ground blades using 16 and larger wheels or shaped platens. Thin at the edge will always cut longer than thicker. We mark off a section of blade (usually approximately 3) and stay within the lines in order to use the same length of edge with all knives. Every effort is made to fairly test each knife to the same predetermined degree of dullness, that is where the edge loses its bite in the rope, and that's the same point where it will no longer shave hair.
Wayne G
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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- 17,848
Actually, this is a very standard test that I have seen many well known knifemakers do in BLADE magazine articles for years, so it is quite easily relatable and not so easily dismissable as you would think. This type of test has been around a long time. You will notice that a small section of the blade was used to cut, not the entire 9 inch length. Any knifemaker can duplicate this test.
Also, comparison tests should not be done by the one who owns,sells or hypes one of the brands being tested
Kinda like letting the casino place your bet for you