Friction Forged test blade

kneedeep said:
I haven't met Busse, but by most accounts I have read on these forums he seems like a pretty straight up, honest guy (and yes of course I understand he has a vested interest in promoting his knives). If he said he tested the Cold Steel knives exactly the same way as his knives, I would tend to believe him. The current reputation of his knives is so good, that doing anything other than testing other blades fairly would only serve to hurt him in the long run. You don't get the sort of loyalty and dedication to a brand like you see in the Busse forum, just from great knives, I'd suspect Jerry and his team also have something to do with it, so yes I'd believe him. And from the list of people that witnessed the test, if they said the test was done fairly, I'd believe them. Certainly this kind of trust doesn't belong in scientific testing, but this is also a community, and from what I've seen, (forgive me for being a noob) a pretty close one. Everyone seems to know everyone else, most seem to know who they can trust and have positive interactions with. If we want cold hard numbers, we can certainly run as many double-blind tests as necessary (assuming someone has the time and resources), but to the average person here I think that it is easier for them to relate to a test performed by a person they know (or at least know of).

In any case the whole point is that it is easier to relate to a test where Knife A did this many cuts, and Knife B did this many cuts in the same situation at the same time, than Knife A did this many cuts in this situation on this date, and Knife B did this many cuts in a different situation on a different date.

The 2,771 cuts are amazingly impressive, but to be honest, being a noob I don't have anything to compare it to stored away in my head. I'm just saying that I suspect I would be even more impressed if someone told me that the Busse did 2,771 cuts while the Brand B knife only did X number of cuts.
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You may believe Busse, but his competition and their supporters would not,

Also push cutting rope test is a very standard test that I have seen demonstrated by countless knifemakers over the years. Just read through the Blade Mags of the last 10 years and you will see countless demos of knives pushcutting.

I would guess that blades like 440V, BG42 and some others could equal that performance with proper geometry, and HT. Maybe this new steel can as well, who knows.

Zubeng Knive did a hemp rope chopping test, where they performed live hard chops on 1 inch hemp rope . Thy got to 13,000 chops but were using most of the blade and the chops have lots of force. But the test can be duplicated if you have enough patience and endurance.:D
 
440V would be a poor push cutter due to the high carbide volume. Try something like M2/F2 at 66 HRC. Of course with the Busse it is the combination of properties that is interesting. The same knife that does the above is not a light hunter, it also chops 2x4's and smashed concrete blocks.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
440V would be a poor push cutter due to the high carbide volume. Try something like M2/F2 at 66 HRC. Of course with the Busse it is the combination of properties that is interesting. The same knife that does the above is not a light hunter, it also chops 2x4's and smashed concrete blocks.

-Cliff
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Interesting about 440V and probably true. I have to say that my Spy Military in 440V serrated, was used to cut for years without sharpening on a boat in terrible climate. But it wasn't push cutting.

Yes, it's ot just one paramter that makes the busse special, it is all categories rolled in one where it shines above all else.
 
Cobalt said:
I have to say that my Spy Military in 440V serrated, was used to cut for years without sharpening on a boat in terrible climate. But it wasn't push cutting.
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For aggressive slicing, assuming that you never hit anything hard to impact the edge, this is not surprising, it is a very high wear steel. The edge will stabilize as soon as it is thick enough to hold the high carbide volume.

Yes, it's ot just one paramter that makes the busse special, it is all categories rolled in one where it shines above all else.
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Yeah, take the same FF D2 blade, chop up a 2x4, smash up a concrete block, throw it at a stump hard enough for the pommel to leave impacts etc. .

What you have here with the FF D2 is a blade which is slightly harder and thus can slice a bit more rope (as Phil has shown) than CPM D2. Not surprising since the FF blade is harder. But the CPM blade could be ran much harder if desired.

The real advantage then is slightly greater toughness so as to allow it to be used by users in the field with less than ideal experience or skill. Of course using that as the marketing line will never happen, but that appears to be the reality.

I have a CPM D2 blade being compared to the D2 blade that Mel Sorg made for me years ago. It will be interesting to see if the user can tell any difference between them.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
For aggressive slicing, assuming that you never hit anything hard to impact the edge, this is not surprising, it is a very high wear steel. The edge will stabilize as soon as it is thick enough to hold the high carbide volume.



Yeah, take the same FF D2 blade, chop up a 2x4, smash up a concrete block, throw it at a stump hard enough for the pommel to leave impacts etc. .

What you have here with the FF D2 is a blade which is slightly harder and thus can slice a bit more rope (as Phil has shown) than CPM D2. Not surprising since the FF blade is harder. But the CPM blade could be ran much harder if desired.

The real advantage then is slightly greater toughness so as to allow it to be used by users in the field with less than ideal experience or skill. Of course using that as the marketing line will never happen, but that appears to be the reality.

I have a CPM D2 blade being compared to the D2 blade that Mel Sorg made for me years ago. It will be interesting to see if the user can tell any difference between them.

-Cliff
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Those two D2 blades would make excellent comparos for the FF D2 at some point.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Yeah, take the same FF D2 blade, chop up a 2x4, smash up a concrete block, throw it at a stump hard enough for the pommel to leave impacts etc. .

What you have here with the FF D2 is a blade which is slightly harder and thus can slice a bit more rope (as Phil has shown) than CPM D2. Not surprising since the FF blade is harder. But the CPM blade could be ran much harder if desired.

The real advantage then is slightly greater toughness so as to allow it to be used by users in the field with less than ideal experience or skill. Of course using that as the marketing line will never happen, but that appears to be the reality.
-Cliff
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So you are saying that chopping concrete and throwing is a valuable test for a thin bladed cutter? How so? Next I suppose you will demand that they send a knife to Noss for testing. :D

What you have here really illustrates that it's easier for Cliff to post assumptions about knives never held, made out of steel he has never touched, using test information that he has objected to, then it is to answer technical questions.
 
Is smashing up concrete blocks and throwing knives hard at stumps some kind of new type of hunting, survival skill, or testing method? I personally don't cut rope with a strait push cut, useing 1 inch of blade to cut a 1 inch rope is meaningless to me no matter how large the number. Busse could easily have made a knife of another steel that was the same as the knife he used for the rope cutting at Blade. This rope cutting was pre planned and talked about before the show if I do remember correctly, and would be much more meaningful with something to compare it to. But really why is this even brought up the basic line isn't even made anymore? Phil anymore work or impressions on the FF D2 blade?
 
db said:
I personally don't cut rope with a strait push cut, useing 1 inch of blade to cut a 1 inch rope is meaningless to me no matter how large the number. Busse could easily have made a knife of another steel that was the same as the knife he used for the rope cutting at Blade. This rope cutting was pre planned and talked about before the show if I do remember correctly, and would be much more meaningful with something to compare it to. But really why is this even brought up the basic line isn't even made anymore? Phil anymore work or impressions on the FF D2 blade?
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All I can see with a test that requires over 1000 cuts to finish on a quality steel is that it would be easier to measure the difference in steels. I don't doubt that a quality D2 blade could come close or match the Basics value.

What would be interesting would be to see a test with numbers n the thousands comparing the same blades originally compared to FFD2 so a better idea of performance differences can be seen. difference in cuts measured n the teens isn't much and more error deviation is in those numbers than in high number tests.

That was more of my idea, but who knows, I am not a tester of any kind, just a user.
 
I'm also more of a user than a tester, and don't know much about error deviation and all that high tec stuff. Frankly I personally will touch up my edges way before they are close to slightly dull and most edge holding benifits of any steel is not a factor for me. But I do keep getting the new and improved steels because I'm a knife nut, and steel snob. :)
I do really like reading all tests and impressions no matter if they are sientific or not, if they compare to another or not, or just someones impression. Heck sometimes the simple opinion posts are the best ones for me.
 
Comparison, comparison, comparison, comparison!

Those of us testing knives in the working hunting knife class believe that we know how to make a knife that cuts and how to test it. And, we have experience with those two things. We don’t have to depend on what other folks write.

I’ll say it again; the push-it-through-test (PITT) to get high numbers doesn’t prove anything about how the knife would cut in use as a working knife. Most knives work primarily by slicing through relatively soft materials, that is, compared to bricks.

I’ve not seen fair comparisons made in the PITT.

The rope slicing test per Goddard, Wilson, Meadows and others will result in fair comparisons that accurately mirror real life cutting situations.

Those interested in performance can do simple tests such as whittling a point on an old broom handle. Or, bundle up tight rolls of newspaper half an inch in diameter and slice through them with different types of sharpening and cross section blade geometry. Cut only until the blades are no longer sharp according to your definition. Keep records. The more comparisons you make between blades on different cutting chores, the more knowledgeable you will become.

Get some experience with your knives and sharpening methods. Don’t believe what you read, prove it for yourself.

Wayne G
 
Cobalt said:
Those two D2 blades would make excellent comparos for the FF D2 at some point.
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I'll pick up one once they are out, I would rather a simple working design though. FR handle, etc., though I doubt you will see that for awhile.

Cobalt said:
I don't doubt that a quality D2 blade could come close or match the Basics value.
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D2 is HORRIBLE for push cutting, one of the worst steels as the edge stability is very low, massive carbide aggregates.

Wayne G. said:
Those of us testing knives in the working hunting knife class ...
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What is this supposed to mean, Busse doesn't make working knives? They have models designed specifically to be hunting knives as well, including collaborations with other custom makers.

Those interested in performance can do simple tests such as whittling a point on an old broom handle.
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Wood carving is essentially a push cut as are many types of cutting, as I noted, many butchers do their cutting by pushes and thus want very highly polished edges. Push cutting rope is a very directly correlated test to them. Slicing aggression is useless for that work.

Yes of course users should do work, that is why Busse guarantees the PERFORMANCE of his blades and doesn't ask the users to proceed on faith. He also demonstrates it lives and invites the users to participate live in the cutting.

-Cliff
 
Cliff wrote:

"D2 is HORRIBLE for push cutting, one of the worst steels as the edge stability is very low, massive carbide aggregates."


Wayne G answers. I cut a bundle of six, one-inch ropes with one of those aweful D2 blades with the massive carbide aggregates. Must have been my superior cutting ability, not the steel type, hardness, sharpeninig and etc. That was good for third place the OKCA Show competition a number of years ago. The free hanging rope cut is basically a push cut, if not the rope comes off the end of the blade before finishing the cut. The polished edge always worked the best for me.

And, I don't know enough about Busse knives to be opinionated one way or the other. I haven't mentioned them, have I?

Wayne G
 
More testing: I re-ran the FFD2, CPM D2, CPM90V blades already described and added the CPM 154 semi skinner. The CPM 154 is RC 62 and 0.010 at the edge tapering to about 0.008 at the edge on the tip. The new rope is 3 strands with an outside diameter of 5/8 inch. There is no plastic tracer but the rope is very tight wound and dense. I cut again to 30 pounds on the scale, making 10 slices with each knife watching the scale and then stopping to feel the edge. I had a couple of false starts with the FFD2 knife and had to go back and re-sharpen it to get it cutting like it did with the initial factory edge.

FFD2 started out at 15 lbs 253 total cuts to 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 50 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 52 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 151 cuts

CPM S90V started out at 15 lbs 226 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 60 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 92 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 74 cuts

CPM 154 started out at 15 lbs 174 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 55 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 44 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 75 cuts

CPM D2 started out at 15 lbs 152 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 42 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 36 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 74 cuts

Some observations:
The FFD2 is very hard, (66 RC). If the sharpening is right on the blade is a great cutter. If you were to stop the testing at 25lbs then the CPM S90V blade cut longer and the CPM 154 knife compared pretty well with the CPM D2 not too far behind. At 25 lbs the knives all kept cutting but at this point most users would want to touch up the blades. I am pretty much done for now. I have to stand back and try to analyze what is going on here and maybe later do some more testing on different materials. Phil
 
Phil,

Thanks for the test results.

Maynard isn't home from Alaska yet and we're leaving for the coast for three days so it's going to be next week before we can do much cutting.

diamondbladeknives.com it up and mostly running as of this morning.

Wayne G
 
ah, nevermind, I'm just going to have to work through each individual rope cutting test, it's becoming more and more obvious that the numbers don't transfer over.
 
Phil Wilson said:
More testing: I re-ran the FFD2, CPM D2, CPM90V blades already described and added the CPM 154 semi skinner. The CPM 154 is RC 62 and 0.010 at the edge tapering to about 0.008 at the edge on the tip. The new rope is 3 strands with an outside diameter of 5/8 inch. There is no plastic tracer but the rope is very tight wound and dense. I cut again to 30 pounds on the scale, making 10 slices with each knife watching the scale and then stopping to feel the edge. I had a couple of false starts with the FFD2 knife and had to go back and re-sharpen it to get it cutting like it did with the initial factory edge.

FFD2 started out at 15 lbs 253 total cuts to 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 50 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 52 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 151 cuts

CPM S90V started out at 15 lbs 226 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 60 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 92 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 74 cuts

CPM 154 started out at 15 lbs 174 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 55 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 44 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 75 cuts

CPM D2 started out at 15 lbs 152 total cuts at 30 lbs
0 to 20 lbs 42 cuts
20 to 25 lbs 36 cuts
25 to 30 lbs 74 cuts

Some observations:
The FFD2 is very hard, (66 RC). If the sharpening is right on the blade is a great cutter. If you were to stop the testing at 25lbs then the CPM S90V blade cut longer and the CPM 154 knife compared pretty well with the CPM D2 not too far behind. At 25 lbs the knives all kept cutting but at this point most users would want to touch up the blades. I am pretty much done for now. I have to stand back and try to analyze what is going on here and maybe later do some more testing on different materials. Phil
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very interesting results indeed. Almost seems like FFD2 might be experiencing microserration effect.

Up to 25lbs S90V was ahead and FFD2 was dead even with CPM154.

The last number at 30 lbs makes no sense. for both FFD2 and S90V, almost like if they were reversed. All the other steels went up in number of cuts at 30lbs except S90V? I'd say do over. Also FFD2 is quite high in relation to it's own values. Like it magically sharpenned itself or chipped away and microserrations did the curring.

as hardheart said I am more confused than before by these results.:confused:
 
yeah, it's pretty strange how S90V took a leap where the others didn't, or how FFD2 managed to triple the number of cuts comparing lowest force (15-20) and highest (25-30), where 154 & the other D2 got around a 50% increase.



visual aid :D
 
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