Friend of mine found old Knifetest.com video/ THIS is the Joe X DESTRUCTION VIDEO Thread

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Knife performed well up to the rock. Looked to me like the rock was shaped and positioned so there was a distinct ridge where he was chopping. Assuming it was hard granite or something similar I think that did all the edge damage. Once you had all that damage you probably had stress risers that lead to the blade breaking on all the spine wacks.

Personally I buy Busse knives because they have big handles. All the rest is just an added bonus.
There are two issues that I can see: Joex’s baffoonery and the knife failure. I don’t care about the former, that’s all part of the guy’s act. Our focus should be on the knife; did it fail prematurely or did it fail as expected given the level of abuse? Unless the engineers act to discredit this video it will continue to be brought up as gospel for years. Unfortunately, what constitutes a great knife remains vague, there are no specification for the maximum foot pounds of pressure that a point or edge can or should endure, nor any abstract way to compare one knife with another.

n2s
 
So, I wanted to share this review. This shows how considerably more scientific someone can be, while still performing destructive tests. He was also very neutral. Unlike JoeX he would chop or baton at the same power level. He didn't swing for the stands with a Busse and swing a skrama like he is feather dusting. Now this is a very old review(2002) and does not apply to modern knives, but included just to show the process. Noss also destroyed two Busses and both were the two toughest knives Noss has tested.
I think a lot changed since then, steel, heattreat
 
That the same hell razor from your other torture video? This is more in line with what I expected and like to see. Thank you Vlad. INFI is ridiculous sometimes. Thank you for restoring faith in the steel!
yes, it's the same knife. and I also tested my Whiskey Warden knife, I stood on this little knife, hit it with a hammer, chopped a 5mm bolt. and I tested my second knife Ergo Badger Attack 2 W, it withstood 143 kilograms and cut a 6.35 mm bolt. but I made round spines on the knives; before that, all the knives had chips on the spines. and on a small knife I change the handle because I don’t like wood. In general, it is better when the handle is bolted and epoxy resin.
Joe probably got a defect, just a negative fluctuation... Or the company changed the heat treatment and the new knives are not so durable... Or the knives were made in 2015 and 2017, my friend’s knife was made in 2019.
 
yes, it's the same knife. and I also tested my Whiskey Warden knife, I stood on this little knife, hit it with a hammer, chopped a 5mm bolt. and I tested my second knife Ergo Badger Attack 2 W, it withstood 143 kilograms and cut a 6.35 mm bolt. but I made round spines on the knives; before that, all the knives had chips on the spines. and on a small knife I change the handle because I don’t like wood. In general, it is better when the handle is bolted and epoxy resin.
Joe probably got a defect, just a negative fluctuation... Or the company changed the heat treatment and the new knives are not so durable... Or the knives were made in 2015 and 2017, my friend’s knife was made in 2019.
Very impressive!!! I was leaning towards a heat treat dud. So unlucky. Can't imagine there are many botched heat treats. Thank you again for this. It fared very well. I had lost a bit of faith after watching his explode. You've made me a believer again!!
 
Very impressive!!! I was leaning towards a heat treat dud. So unlucky. Can't imagine there are many botched heat treats. Thank you again for this. It fared very well. I had lost a bit of faith after watching his explode. You've made me a believer again!!
even 10 years ago when I lived in Ukraine, I always tested all the knives I bought. so when I buy something, I always check it, especially if the knife is expensive. therefore, I think that you need to check each copy (if you are willing to sacrifice the appearance of the knife).
 
even 10 years ago when I lived in Ukraine, I always tested all the knives I bought. so when I buy something, I always check it, especially if the knife is expensive. therefore, I think that you need to check each copy (if you are willing to sacrifice the appearance of the knife).
Your hellrazor is still a beauty!!! Makes me wish I had bought one. If anything its more unique now. Cheers man.
 
I hit 110 times. I hit as hard as I could and the cinder block was very strong. the knife is intact! watch my video. Sincerely.

Thanks for this. The more tests the better.

This is why sample size is important in understanding something. If you performed a hundred destruction tests on INFI knives, (or many other steels), you would get at least one example of almost any result. People who strongly believe something prior to that will just latch onto whichever example confirms their pre-existing belief. If you want an objective understanding, you have to look at the results of all hundred tests, not individual outliers.
 
Thanks for this. The more tests the better.

This is why sample size is important in understanding something. If you performed a hundred destruction tests on INFI knives, (or many other steels), you would get at least one example of almost any result. People who strongly believe something prior to that will just latch onto whichever example confirms their pre-existing belief. If you want an objective understanding, you have to look at the results of all hundred tests, not individual outliers.
I agree completely. It is important to know the statistics and not believe fluctuations. I have experience with only 3 knives so far, the fourth knife I saw in absentia in Noss tests, and the fifth knife was tested by Russian guys on their forum in 2009. All knives passed tests. only one knife that Joe tested broke like glass.
 
So, I wanted to share this review. This shows how considerably more scientific someone can be, while still performing destructive tests. He was also very neutral. Unlike JoeX he would chop or baton at the same power level. He didn't swing for the stands with a Busse and swing a skrama like he is feather dusting. Now this is a very old review(2002) and does not apply to modern knives, but included just to show the process. Noss also destroyed two Busses and both were the two toughest knives Noss has tested.
wonder how cliff would respond to this incident if he is still around
 
If I was a knifemaker, I would make a really tough knife especially designed to survive JoeX tests and send it to him, before he tests my not so tough and cutting optimized other knife models. Better being in control, sending him what I want to be tested than to do damage control, because he tested what I didn’t want to be tested (to destruction, I mean).
 
I think a lot changed since then, steel, heattreat
Yes, the old INFI was different in composition. Heat Treat should be the same. But production was much lower than today obviously.

I hit 110 times. I hit as hard as I could and the cinder block was very strong. the knife is intact! watch my video. Sincerely.
Vlad, I think you are the son I never had. ;)

I think Cliff would have asked why the edge exploded hitting the rock and not just cut through it like the WTG Ares?
I am sure with Cliffs testing that he likely would have said, that's not typical for Busse.

Not many knives made it out of Cliffs property in one piece. yet his SHBM did. Back in the 90's I sent Cliff three CS knives, a TM, Recon Scout and an SRK. I never got them back. Nor did I ask for them back.
 
This blade belongs to Luke Freeouf. It weighs 600 g, width is 4.2 cm, balance 1.8 cm in front of handle (my old SHBM 660 g, 3.0 cm bp). Blade has standard Busse asymettric edge, wider on one side than on the other (0.038 x 0.058 -> 18.1, 0.048 x 0.089 -> 15.1). The coating is wore away for up to 1/2", edge has some damage in locations up to about 0.5 mm deep.

This isn't a full review, but mainly a comparison of the new "E" model vs the old straight handled version I have. This blade and my straight handled old battle mistress was used for a variety of cutting including from preparing food in the kitchen to fire starting at lunchtime while lot clearing. It was used on foods, cords, all manner of vegetation (slices, chopped and splitting), as well as misc odd cutting to look at the edge durability, more details below.

I was specifically interested in how the new handle fared on wood chopping. When I first started chopping the BM-E felt light, but when I took full advantage of the new grip, the performance increased and the BM-E performed at 80 +/- 3 % of the ability of my SHBM. Considering the difference in edge geometries (my SHBM has a heavily thinned out edge), the performance would be within a few percent of each other with identical edge profiles.

General comments

Advantages of the "E" grip :

-Talon holes are sloped. You can now cut with more power as your finger fits around a more natural curve around the front talon. You can now drive off the rear talon with far less mangling of your hand and thus use more power on your swing and a further back grip.

-The handle has a more aggressive pattern cut into the Micarta, and has more swell. These lock your hand in place during cutting or chopping, increasing security and general performance, when your grip moves around you lose cutting ability. There are also a number of small differences such as the Micarta handle slabs taper at the front and the back on the bottom which improves grip comfort in choked up and far back grips.

-With the change in shape, checkering and talon holes, you can choke back on this grip so as to shift the balance point about an inch forward. This was far too uncomfortable a grip to be practical on the older straight handled Battle Mistress. I think it was Aubrey Moore who coined the phrase "Busse Pinky". Anyone who has used one of the older SHBMs for extended period of time develops a very large callous on the outside of their pinky as it tended to get mashed by the rear talon. The new handle design reduces this problem significantly.

-Handle drop. The handle is angled relative to the blade so you can chop harder with your wrist in a stronger position. It also acts to increase draw cutting ability as you can also rotate the blade smoother, and the cutting ability goes up in general as there is a shearing effect like a skew chisel. Because the blade is angled down, it also feels much lighter in hand (less torque).

Disadvantages :

-Tube fasteners. If your hand happens to put your fingers in contact with the open holes in the handle, they can be abrasive in heavy cutting. On the upside, they are lashing points.

-The tang is raised about the handle slabs (~0.055"), doesn't promote comfort.

-The grip is thinner (0.7" vs 0.825" for my SHBM). If it was as thick as I would want it (~1.125"), you would probably get complaints about fat grips. My hand is 8.25" from tip of middle finger to wrist, 4.25" across in front of thumb, and 2.25" thick through base of thumb (splayed out hand, 2.75" when relaxed), this is obviously a user specific issue.

-The talons should have been extended. Now since they are curved you can ramp over them in extreme cases were as before you would simply slam into the other straighter ones. With an oiled up grip, I would not feel comfortable doing a heavy stab. Doing some hammer with the butt, I could not keep my hand on the handle.

-I would prefer a more aggressive texture. Of course if this was the case you would probably get complaints about it being too aggressive. You can increase the aggression of the handle by using a coarse sandpaper.

Blade :

-The blade is thinner and more narrow than on the straight handled versions. This shifts the balance reducing power when chopping. It however makes fine cutting more practical as there is less strain on your hand. The loss of chopping power is compensated for by the ability of the new grip to allow a further back grip, and thus gain back the blade heavy balance. This is a very coherent and well thought out design.

General Improvements :

-If the Micarta was extended out around the talons this would make the grip even more comfortable. There may be durability concerns with this narrow a strip of Micarta so just make fatter talons.

-Longer grip. For large blades, longer grips (handle and a half), offer the ability to present a more neutral balance for precision work, plus reach and power for heavy work. This is a major design change though and would really be well suited for a larger knife overall. A ~14" blade on a handle and a half ergo grip would be one hell of a brush cutter, the ergo grip just screams for a longer blade.

BM-E edge durability, this was a side issue which I was asked to look at.

I first just chopped up a fair amount of wood. This was fresh wood, fir, pine and spruce as well as seasoned drift wood, and various scrap lumber. Knots were cut through frequently. The edge was fully sharpened, using waterstones and a CrO loaded strop, several times to enable the detection of even minor rolling. No damage was induced on the edge during any of the chopping.

The blade was then chopped into nails while they rested on a 4x4 pressure treated block. The nails would be driven into the wood from the force of the impacts, and cuts made up to about one quarter of the way through a 3.5" common nail. The edge was just blunted. A 510 g ball pein hammer was used to pound the knife into the various nails . Because the wood kept collapsing under the nail, the best that could be achieved was a cut about half way through the 3.5" nail. These various half dozen poundings put small dents in the edge, from one to two mm wide, the damaged region was up to 0.015" thick.

Next I used a harder wood block which was higher up off the floor so I could get more power behind the knife, and repeated the nail cutting. The cuts were deeper, the damage induced was more bending, but less extensive than the hammer assisted cuts. I then did some nail chopping on concrete. This didn't give under the nail, and the blade cut far deeper. I could get penetration up to half way through the 3.5" nail. I then used a 4.5 lbs beach rock to pound the knife through the nails. The larger nails took one to two hits to be cut. The edge damage from this was less than the hammer pounding, and the concrete tended to just mash the edge down a little in the impact areas, just blunting.

I then chopped into the head of the hammer. The knife made large cuts into the head, about one mm deep, and up to one cm long. This did no visible damage to the knife, just blunted it. I then found a piece of a concrete block that I had chopped up earlier and whacked that into bits. These were hits heavy enough to break the concrete apart and produce sparks. The rock contacts mashed the edge down, and produced abrasion lines in the edge. A lot of impaction had taken place, but no direct fracturing. I then stabbed the tip into the pieces a half a dozen times, breaking them. Some tip impaction, nothing significant (<0.5 mm).

I then chopped into the beach rock a half a dozen times. I was hitting the rock hard enough to send it flying feet across the floor and producing visible sparks. This induced more impaction than the concrete, the edge was impacted up to 0.035" across, the blade thickness was a little less than this behind the impacted region, about 0.025"-0.030". Again no fracture, you could clearly see the squashed steel. I then stabbed the tip into the rock, sending sparks flying and the rock shooting across the floor again. I did this a half a dozen times and it impacted the tip about one mm.

I then held the knife out at arms length and examined it for damage. The regions that had been whacked into the beach rock were visibly impacted, but overall it didn't look that heavily used. I took a few shots, and could not tell from the pictures that it had changed significantly from before. Cheap camera though, no ability to do close ups. So I take the blade and put it at a forty five degree angle and then give the edge a whack with the hammer. Success. This bends a piece of the edge enough that the ductility is exceeded and it tears off. This removed a piece of the edge about three mm long and the blade was 0.030" thick behind the damaged region. This damage was visible at arms length.

How was the cutting ability effected? After the concrete chopping the blade still had the ability to slice cardboard, chop wood, and slice various cords in the regions of heaviest damage. Though you could tell of course it was seriously blunted. After I whacked it into the beach rock there was no fine cutting ability left in those impact areas. You could still chop wood, but you were crushing it a lot, and the performance was seriously degraded. Of course there were lots of sharp areas left on the blade. Time to sharpen the blade on a small belt sander (1x30"), would be a couple of minutes, just a few passes per side would eliminate 90% of the damage, sharpening by hand, it would take less than half an hour.

-Cliff

wonder how cliff would respond to this incident if he is still around
Above, I quoted the full review. Very well written report. But Cliff was very good at that.
 
Unless someone is going to test another AFBM I don't think there is much more we can gather from testing other Busse's.
Was this a one off heat treatment problem or a batch of blades or a problem with the steel ?
I don't know but I didn't think it would break the way it did and that's why in an end of the world situation I think I'll still bring my SHBM.
 
Unless someone is going to test another AFBM I don't think there is much more we can gather from testing other Busse's.
Was this a one off heat treatment problem or a batch of blades or a problem with the steel ?
I don't know but I didn't think it would break the way it did and that's why in an end of the world situation I think I'll still bring my SHBM.
SHBM is a surefire option.
I suspect the blade to be a fluke, joe accidentally got a bad one, I don’t think busse quality could drop dramatically like that, this is not their spirit
 
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