Full-time or Part-time; Any difference?

[Kevin Jones]

This was a subject that came up in conversation several times at the Blade Show.
The underlying question was, do collectors even consider a maker’s full-time/part-time status when contemplating a purchase? My initial response was “NO”, as it’s more about the particular knife being considered and the price of that knife.

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.
First, I do not equate knife quality with full/part-time status. I do however believe a maker who has the luxury of only making 10-12 knives a year has an opportunity to perhaps produce a better knife than a maker with similar skills that has to make 40-60 knives per to support his family. There’s probably a lot to be said for a part-time or hobbyist maker that can make knives when the urge hits him over the maker who has to crank out knives to put food on the table.

• Is it true that part-time makers should be able to offer like knives at a lower cost than full-time makers? And if so do they generally?

• Are full-time/part-time designations just ambiguous labels meaning little to collectors? We all know part-timers that do excellent work and still fine the time to promote and do the “other things” that move the industry forward. I will mention Lin Rhea as a part-time maker who I consider an Ambassador for the custom knife industry.

• How many full-time makers are there? I constantly hear numbers tossed around that I consider low. But again, as an industry we have very little documented statistics, so it’s very easy for folks to throw numbers around as fact. I would like to see the CKCA start collecting and documenting some hard facts and statistics on our industry.

I truly believe that full-time makers are extremely important to the future of the Custom Knife industry.

OK, more than enough of my rambling.

I’m very interested in what collectors, makers and dealers have to say on this subject.

As aways, I thank you in advance for your participation.

 

[RogerP]

• Is it true that part-time makers should be able to offer like knives at a lower cost than full-time makers? And if so do they generally?

I'm not sure that part time makers should be able to offer similar knives at lower prices. Material cost, shop time, complexity of the particular piece, skill level and market position will be the more significant factors in the pricing calculus. Assuming for the sake of discussion that all those factors are equal, I wouldn't expect the end product of the part time maker to be less expensive. Nor have I observed any pricing trends that break along the part time / full time divide.

• Are full-time/part-time designations just ambiguous labels meaning little to collectors? We all know part-timers that do excellent work and still fine the time to promote and do the “other things” that move the industry forward. I will mention Lin Rhea as a part-time maker who I consider an Ambassador for the custom knife industry.

I think the labels are clear - we pretty much understand what full time / part time mean. Of course, depending on the nature of their primary job and their particular personal circumstances, some part time makers will have a lot more time to dedicate to knifemaking than others.

The most significant "meaning" to me as a collector is that, as a general rule, delivery times bear a marginally closer relationship to reality amongst full time makers as compared to part time makers - for obvious reasons. Exceptions abound, to be sure.

Beyond that, I don't really give a whole lot of attention to the full time / part time distinction - it is but one element in the overall assessment of the maker and his work.

• How many full-time makers are there? I constantly hear numbers tossed around that I consider low..

If anyone has kep stats on this, I haven't heard about it.

Roger

 

[sheathmaker]

Some things to consider between full time and part time anything. I realize I'm not talking knife making exclusively, yet many of the things I mention could apply to almost anything.

Practiced skills translated to faster production of EQUAL quality. The more practice obtained through repeated and enhanced processes the better the final product. The part time maker has less opportunity to take advantage of this other than very long term.

The ability to justify the expense of MORE and BETTER equipment through higher production and volume without sacrificing quality to speed definitely falls in favor of the full time maker. This ties directly to point one above. This does not mean a knife of the very highest quality cannot be produced entirely by hand, but it does mean the maker might go a little hungry between deliveries.

These two points applied to me directly in working with leather. If we back up just five or six years prior to my aquistion of the right equiptment and prior to my physical ability to produce at the rate I now do, I believe my work, when compared to today would be classed, at least by me, as sub standard to today's quality and the volume of production is vastly greater than I was able to produce then. This also does not mean that a man cannot produce a piece of leather goods that is excellent quality in every repect completely by hand, but he also might get a little hungry between deliveries.

As far as pricing goes, I think the end product and quality will dictate the pricing struture more than anything else, but consistant quality and consistant on time delivery will be a huge factor as to what someone is willing to pay. The part timer is on equal footing here and should not be bound by tradition or anything else to take less for his work.

I think this and knife making compare quite nicely to the subject at hand.

Paul

 

[betzner]

I think something is to be said for the reasons behind why a maker is full-time or part-time. Because I collect his knives, I bring up Curt Erickson as an example. Curt is probably something of an exception, given the reasons for his part-time status (soon to retire from law enforcement - then he goes fulltime), his bladesmith training (Buster Warenski's only protege) and his engraver (his wife, Julie Warenski-Erickson).

So, here is a part-time maker whose quality is unchallenged, who currently puts out very few knives, will not take orders until he goes fulltime - and still commands exceptional pricing - because of exceptional quality the likes of which one seldom finds.

I use this as an example of part-time vs full-time only because there are probably many similar exceptions to what we all may think of, when considering the work of those who are part-time vs full-time makers.

Curt is probably best known for his art daggers, but here is one of his fighters - notice he does not need to use solder.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

..........I will mention Lin Rhea as a part-time maker who I consider an Ambassador for the custom knife industry......

.

"Ambassador Rhea".
Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

 

[Kevin Jones]

"Ambassador Rhea".
Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Actually "Ambassador Andersen" has much better flow.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'm not sure that part time makers should be able to offer similar knives at lower prices. Material cost, shop time, complexity of the particular piece, skill level and market position will be the more significant factors in the pricing calculus. Assuming for the sake of discussion that all those factors are equal, I wouldn't expect the end product of the part time maker to be less expensive. Nor have I observed any pricing trends that break along the part time / full time divide.
This is the type of reply I was hoping for to incite good discussion.
The point of the discussions I was involved in from the F/T maker prospective was the concern that since P/T makers are often supplementing income or even participating in a hobby in some cases can entice them to work at a lower labor rate thus being able to offer a damascus, ivory handle bowie for $600-$800 I believe was the example presented. Where F/T makers supporting a family and even having to buy health insurance in some instances can't compete at that price. I do know quite a few F/T makers however whose spouses also have careers which obviously helps especially in providing health insurance. The F/T makers present a good point in this respect, however there's a lot of other factors to consider. Unity in price structure is necessary to maintain a strong industry.

I think the labels are clear - we pretty much understand what full time / part time mean. Of course, depending on the nature of their primary job and their particular personal circumstances, some part time makers will have a lot more time to dedicate to knifemaking than others.

The most significant "meaning" to me as a collector is that, as a general rule, delivery times bear a marginally closer relationship to reality amongst full time makers as compared to part time makers - for obvious reasons. Exceptions abound, to be sure.

Beyond that, I don't really give a whole lot of attention to the full time / part time distinction - it is but one element in the overall assessment of the maker and his work.



If anyone has kep stats on this, I haven't heard about it.

Roger

*********************

 

[Lorien]

It seems to me that an individual's life is often full of changes and hurdles and that many individuals who make things like knives go through periods of time where full time and part time effort really depends on what's going on in said bumpy life.
Say for example a maker becomes a dad. Mom wants to stay home to be mom, so maker has to reach beyond his craft in order to bring home the bacon. Conversely, said maker becomes stay at home dad, mom goes out and gets the job with benefits, so maker can stay home as dad and becomes full time at his gig.
Holding any individual to their job, as an outsider, would be unfair, and I really don't get a sense of that being said in this thread. But it is of note I think, just in case anyone was thinking that.
I need another cup of coffee.

 

[betzner]

If we think of the part time maker as more in the beginning stages of the knifemaker learning curve, one could see where pricing would be lower than a full time maker, perhaps - but just as likely, the quality of the product will match the pricing.

What I have found is that quality costs, no matter whether a maker is fulltime or parttime. And where quality is not as good, fulltime or parttime, a lesser pricing structure exists.



I have always seen pricing and quality go hand in hand, without regard for full or part time status, in the beginning of a knifemaker's career. Of course, when a maker has made a name for him/her self, there's an obvious premium on top.

 

[Kevin Jones]

It seems to me that an individual's life is often full of changes and hurdles and that many individuals who make things like knives go through periods of time where full time and part time effort really depends on what's going on in said bumpy life.
Say for example a maker becomes a dad. Mom wants to stay home to be mom, so maker has to reach beyond his craft in order to bring home the bacon. Conversely, said maker becomes stay at home dad, mom goes out and gets the job with benefits, so maker can stay home as dad and becomes full time at his gig.
Holding any individual to their job, as an outsider, would be unfair, and I really don't get a sense of that being said in this thread. But it is of note I think, just in case anyone was thinking that.
I need another cup of coffee.

I agree.

I basically presented this thread/subject as a result of three different recent conversations with makers where this subject was brought up. So I figured it's sure worth discussion.

As I said in my opening post, we do need dedicated full-time makers. And to my earlier point, I don't really like the labels full-time/part-time but rather look at maker's as fully dedicated and engaged ("all in" so to speak) and makers that take a more casual approach. Nothing wrong with either approach, however the industry desperately needs the former.

Paul, thanks for your post. Very good points.

 

[NickWheeler]

Well, as a VERY part time maker I don't feel it's right for me to undercut my full-time friends.

I suppose I COULD sell an ivory handled, damascus bowie for $100... since I'm not depending on it to pay the bills. But I certainly don't think I SHOULD. I think to be fair to my friends AND myself, I need to price it fairly for where I am in the market.

Heck, my stuff is a little more expensive now than when I DIDN'T have another job. But my work is always improving, and I also have my Js stamp now, where as I didn't then.

Quality has NO connection to this... Wolf Loerchner is part time.

I think Paul made some very good points. I am fortunate to have learned a lot of "tricks" when I was in the shop everyday, that helped with the process. I don't get enough time in the shop these days to come up with many of those anymore. Those little things make a huge difference in speed, consistancy, and results.


I think the ultimate difference isn't the status, but rather how EACH individual maker utilizes his time...

 

[jdm61]

Well, as a VERY part time maker I don't feel it's right for me to undercut my full-time friends.

I suppose I COULD sell an ivory handled, damascus bowie for $100... since I'm not depending on it to pay the bills. But I certainly don't think I SHOULD. I think to be fair to my friends AND myself, I need to price it fairly for where I am in the market.

Heck, my stuff is a little more expensive now than when I DIDN'T have another job. But my work is always improving, and I also have my Js stamp now, where as I didn't then.

Quality has NO connection to this... Wolf Loerchner is part time.

I think Paul made some very good points. I am fortunate to have learned a lot of "tricks" when I was in the shop everyday, that helped with the process. I don't get enough time in the shop these days to come up with many of those anymore. Those little things make a huge difference in speed, consistancy, and results.


I think the ultimate difference isn't the status, but rather how EACH individual maker utilizes his time...

Nick.........if you count actual hours spent agonizing over every last bit of minutiae, you are STILL a full time maker. You just happen to have a second job

 

[Marcel54]

Besides the earlier mentioned points I think there is at least one aspect to be considered and that's what type of knives a maker makes and from which part of the world he/she comes.

An example: Paul Jarvis and Arpad Bojtos are both makers of "art knives". Arpad is full time and makes about 6 to 10 knives a year. Paul is part time and makes about the same amount of knives a year. If you look at there prices I can state that - all other things equal - Arpad is cheaper then Paul and that's mainly because he is from a country where economics "dictate" a different hourly rate then in the US.

Marcel

 

[lwrhea]

Kevin, your question is a good one. I have wondered what the buyers perspective is regarding a maker's full or part time status.

I think there are individual advantages to being either FT or PT from a marketing stand point, but would like to hear more of the collector's thoughts.

Good subject. Lin

 

[Bobby Branton]

I think that some people have said that full time makers who have a wife with a good job and health benefits, etc are not the same as a maker who makes his income solely from knifemaking without a spouse to take up the slack.
I am a full time maker who has a wife with a state job and benefits, but I still need to make a certain amount of money each week to supplement her income and to pay for my bills associated with knifemaking.
As a full time maker, I do not feel that I have the time to make the really nice pieces that I know I am capable of. I have to concrentrate on the value added bread and butter knives that will put food on the table. I am going to try to work harder to break that tradition by attempting to do a upscale knife once a month and maybe have a few for the shows that I attend.
I would suggest that maybe someone who has a little time on their hands create a survey and divide the makers among a number of collectors and call the makers listed in the back of the Knives 2008 annuals and compile the information that you are looking for. I'm sure that would be the best way to find out approx how many full time makers are currently making knives.

 

[RogerP]

The point of the discussions I was involved in from the F/T maker prospective was the concern that since P/T makers are often supplementing income or even participating in a hobby in some cases can entice them to work at a lower labor rate thus being able to offer a damascus, ivory handle bowie for $600-$800 I believe was the example presented. Where F/T makers supporting a family and even having to buy health insurance in some instances can't compete at that price. I do know quite a few F/T makers however whose spouses also have careers which obviously helps especially in providing health insurance. The F/T makers present a good point in this respect, however there's a lot of other factors to consider. Unity in price structure is necessary to maintain a strong industry.

Not hard to see where this would be a point of concern to the full time maker - though as I said - I have observed no trend of part time makers selling substantially below their full time counterparts (of comparable skill and market position). I'm sure individual examples could be found, but singular cases that aren't representative of a trend probably aren't that informative of the issue.

Pricing aint easy for the maker - full or part time. You're never going to get a uniform pricing structure because this is ultimately a final decision for each individual maker - and of course, for the buyer. The market ultimately sorts out pricing pretty well on its own.

Roger

 

[NickWheeler]

Joe, if you count the hours on each knife then I am like full-time and a half

I am always pleasantly bewildered by the guys that are full time AND put so much of their heart and soul into each piece, AND rock some awesome knives AND have a high output... Fellas like Burt Foster, Bill Buxton, Todd Begg, come to mind (these are personal friends so I used them as examples I'm sure there are many more).

Part time guys like Lin Rhea manage to do the same with the time they have.

Maybe if I could lose my job, lose interest in girls, quit working out, AND conquer ADD... I would be a knifemaking machine Just josh'n .

Bobby made some good points. I, for one, would LOVE to see him make some of those pieces he's dreaming of.

 

[bandaidman]

Unity in price structure is necessary to maintain a strong industry.

i am curious as to why you think this is necessary or even desirable

 

[tom mayo]

I gotta chime in here.........

I have been making knives for quite a while, and one thing I noticed early on that struck a cord deep inside.

MANY of the full time makers that I met were retired, with a nice healthy retirement check coming in regularly, AND had a wife with a good job.
Not always the case, but I would bet fifty percent.


I also have a comment for BETZNER.........and this is NOT to detract from Mr Ericksons considerable skills.....

Many knifemakers can make a knife without solder. Sure it takes a careful fit but its not that hard.......it is MUCH harder to do a solder joint like Steve Johnson, and the whole purpose of the effort, which is considerable, let me tell you, is to seal the junction so there can NEVER be any rust creeping out of said juncture.

I was there at the introduction of the solderless joint....I have looked at a lot of them........heck, even Jim and Bob Loveless are doing them now, but people are taking the easy way out leaving off the solder, the flux, and the ensuing mess that must be cleaned up and made immaculate to end up with a knife of the quality of Steve Johnson.

Again......I appreciate the pics, and the considerable skill required to make the knife above, and I bet he can solder with the best of them.

 

[B . Buxton]

This was a subject that came up in conversation several times at the Blade Show.
The underlying question was, do collectors even consider a maker’s full-time/part-time status when contemplating a purchase? My initial response was “NO”, as it’s more about the particular knife being considered and the price of that knife.

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.
First, I do not equate knife quality with full/part-time status. I do however believe a maker who has the luxury of only making 10-12 knives a year has an opportunity to perhaps produce a better knife than a maker with similar skills that has to make 40-60 knives per to support his family.

WOW I totally disagree with that statement. I know of several outstanding makers, both full and part time and I would never say a full time maker puts out less quality then a part timer when he knows every knife he makes and sells could cost him his business (income) if it wasn't the best he could make.
I'm full time, have been for several years and I take pride in every knife I make, I strive to improve and better each and every knife that comes from my shop for I know my income DOES depend on it. Any poor feedback could cost me several sales or worse yet my business all together, so why would I take a chance by putting out something inferrior that could cost me eveything its taken me years to build. There might be a few makers out there like that, but there not in business very long.

Good Post Nick, I don't expect anyone else to work for Minimum wage so why should anyone expect knifemakers to. Its like my father used to say, quality doesn't come cheap, if you want cheap you'll have to go somewhere else.

Bill