Full-time or Part-time; Any difference?

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Josh,



Interesting that you wrote this. Since you have stated you have never spent any money on advertising.

Does this make you a less serious maker than someone who does advertise?

Have you started advertising in magazines and I missed it (very possible as I tend to look at the advertising of makers I don't know).

Is a website not advertisement?

It's probably the knifemaker's "best bang for the buck in advertising".

And Josh has one of the best IMO.

It continues to work for the maker everyday, 24 hours a day. Media ads are extremely expensive and a one shot deal in many cases.
Not saying they are not effective, but expensive and perhaps not the best use of advertising dollars for some makers.

I was just thinking the other day of the TOP makers who don't have websites. What an opportunity they are missing.

And then there are those who have poor or outdated websites or don't keep them up.

Are professional photos of a maker's knives not advertisement? Again, very effective and productive use of advertising dollars.

 

[jdm61]

Is a website not advertisement?

It's probably the knifemaker's "best bang for the buck in advertising".

And Josh has one of the best IMO.

It continues to work for the maker everyday, 24 hours a day. Media ads are extremely expensive and a one shot deal in many cases.
Not saying they are not effective, but expensive and perhaps not the best use of advertising dollars for some makers.

I was just thinking the other day of the TOP makers who don't have websites. What an opportunity they are missing.

And then there are those who have poor or outdated websites or don't keep them up.

Are professional photos of a maker's knives not advertisement? Again, very effective and productive use of advertising dollars.

As someone who has spent 30 years "in and around" the advertising industy, i can tell you that "media ads" as you describe them are NOT the best use of advertising if you are advertsing yourself and you services and not a particular iten for sale and done as a "one shot deal". I would go so far as to say that a single insertion is almost a waste of your money. Probably the most effective "one shot deal" is an editorial write up in one of the mags. However, an advertsing program, done properly, can be highly effective. I am preparing to place a series of ads in one or two mags. It will be painful financially, but I think that it will pay off in the long run. I have spoken to a number of knifemakers who have run regular ads and they are quite pleased with the results. Craig Camerer said that he actually recived enquiries and orders from his ad in the form of hand written letters from people who don't really use the internet.....GASP!!! lol. A website is effective only when a sufficient the of potential customers actually know that it exists.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Josh does spend money on advertising. He attends shows and has dealers that sell his knives. Both of those are a form of advertising, and they both have a cost involved.

 

[joshsmith]

Les,

I know you love to be argumentative with me and if you can not understand my premise then maybe someone else will have to explain it. I'm flattered that you enjoy analyzing my business so much. Maybe you can come to my hammer in and get an up close view of my situation.

 

[David Schott]

Every time I see a maker post a comment, a joke, or anything else, they have their website linked and people see that link and some click on it. Sounds like indirect advertising to me! People who might have never seen a knife may relate to a maker's opinion on a political issue and decide to check out that site, as well. I think this forum is a legit and huge way to advertise, even though its not intended. I have sold 5 little EDC knives in the makers forum over the past 5 weeks with a combined view count over 5,000 views. For $40 a year, that seems like pretty good advertising to me!

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

Josh mentioned both web sites and advertising.

Hi Josh,

Just found it curious that you listed advertising as one of your measures of a full time maker. When you do not partake of that.


You guys are suggesting that collectors ask questions. My point is does Josh not advertising hurt him? With collectors that is. If the answer is no...then "advertising" should be taken out of the equation.

If as Keith suggests that the dealers (who again primarily put Josh's knives on web sites) and attending a show are Josh's "advertising". Then the word "advertising" should have a qualifier to it.

Mangler, I agree with you that a one time insertion (especially without a photo) is a less productive advertising medium...long term than a web site.

Most knife makers use no advertising (web sites included).

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

Im not trying to be restrictive on the definitions of a maker. I listed the 4 I did to show how "definitions" don't work.

I used Josh's wife's job as an example. Someone posted earlier about the "Full Time" Makers whose wives have a good job and health insurance. I did this to point out that this has nothing to do with a knife makers ability. Other than it may free them up to make more knives and improve the quality of their work quicker.

As I stated previously, Full Time or Part Time makes no difference. The price (for the most part) of a knife is determined primarily by a makers position in the market.

Again, this does not mean, in some cases that the quality is commensurate with price of the knife....this is especially true with some knives in the after market.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

What's interesting to me is why the average level of prices for a given level of quality & renown has gone down so dramatically over the last 20 - 25 years, i.e., why the market has stopped being willing to pay those prices.

The answer is simple and three fold.

1) The makers did little or nothing to promote their knives. In the 80's it was considered a sign of "weakness" to advertise. Many very well known makers made fun of those makers who did advertise. These well known makers continued the trend into the 90's and this century.

2)The 80's were the decade of "excess", drug money was present in Central Florida and the Japanese Yen was very strong against the dollar.

3) Directly related to #1, today's collectors know little or nothing of the top makers in the 80's. Many of these makers did little or nothing to develop future generations of collectors. Consequently, those makers whose works were heralded as some of the best ever are unknown to todays collectors. Who in turn refuse to spend the money on a maker(s) they have never heard of.

Currently there is a superlative collection being offered by an Internet dealer. This collection is huge and will take some time before all of it is seen. Those disposing of the collection are not necessarily looking for "top" dollar. As well the individual who purchased many of these knives in some cases "over paid" for the knife.

I saw one maker raise the price on a knife by $6,000 once the collector let the maker know he was interested in the knife. Im glad I was there to see it so I knew never to buy another knife from that maker again.

Unfortunately, I suspect there were others who took advantage of this collectors generosity.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi David,

My point was that Josh listed a web site and advertising.

I hit on this point as people were trying to define a "Full Time Maker".

My point was and is...Full Time or Part Time makes no difference. It is the quality of the work, the price and a makers position in the market that for me, that determine if I will buy a custom knife or not.

If you note my web site is in my signature line

 

[David Schott]

My point was and is...Full Time or Part Time makes no difference. It is the quality of the work, the price and a makers position in the market that for me, that determine if I will buy a custom knife or not.

I totally agree. There are enough "fulltime actors" or "fulltime artists" who are in reality fulltime waiters to know that a classification means nothing compared to what people actually put out and what others are willing to pay for that work.

 

[Joss]

Les,

Thanks for your input. What prompted my question is related to 2 data points, one from said collection, and the other might well be linked to drug money, if the rumors have it right.

It's still interesting that in this day and age, which if any thing is more bling-bling, and has more money than the 80's, doesn't support the same kind of prices.

 

[Kevin Jones]

You have not factored in the 40 to 50 hours a week that part time makers put into their regular jobs. When you work it all out, part time makers that are making 12 knives a year have no more time to work on each knife than do full time makers that make 50 knives a year.

It would be interesting to find out the average number of hours part-time makers work per week on their primary jobs. Perhaps 40-50 hours may be high, as some part-timers make knives because they have seasonal jobs or work swing shift and have extra time on their hands to pursue their passion.

When I had my auto part stores many of my customers work the 3pm-11pm shift at Phillip Morris tobacco company. Most all of these guys had second jobs or hobbies that filled their time in the mornings.

I'm sure there are part-time makers that are retired or on a pension that don't have other jobs.

 

[tntbegg]

Back in the day, the collectors did not look forward to seeing a maker to go full time because the makers who went full time usually had to double their prices to be able to make some sort of a living.
BB

Damn it!!! I didn't get that memo!!

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

"Bling" to a large degree is based on name recognition. We see this in custom knives ....it's called "Feeling the Luv".

I would think that the majority of the maker who made it big in the late 90's or this century will pay heed to the cautionary tale of the Big Dogs in the 80's.

If they do not pay heed, they do so not so much to their peril...but to those who collect their knives.

Harsh as it may sound, when you see your favorite maker and their knives disappearing from view and headed into secret vaults around the world....time to sell their knives.

When the makers stop making themselves available to the "Next Generation" of buyers....they will be replaced on the "Demand" side of the table.

Those who had been loyal for 10 -20 and spent thousands of dollars will be left to take the "hit".