Full-time or Part-time; Any difference?

When it comes to both collecting knives and making knives, I just wanted to point out this simple idea at this point in the conversation;

a HOBBY costs you money
a PROFESSION makes you money

Collectors and makers will fall somewhere into the spectrum that spans between these two approaches. It is up to the individual to determine where in the spectrum they are most comfortable/productive. It is possible to move around within this spectrum throughout the course of one's life, I believe.

I think it's fair to allow others the right to chose where in that spectrum they want to be, so long as they keep in mind why they chose that place to begin with, and have gratitude for others helping them find their way there. Like everything in life:)
 
Lorien said:
When it comes to both collecting knives and making knives, I just wanted to point out this simple idea at this point in the conversation;

a HOBBY costs you money
a PROFESSION makes you money

Collectors and makers will fall somewhere into the spectrum that spans between these two approaches. It is up to the individual to determine where in the spectrum they are most comfortable/productive. It is possible to move around within this spectrum throughout the course of one's life, I believe.

I think it's fair to allow others the right to chose where in that spectrum they want to be, so long as they keep in mind why they chose that place to begin with, and have gratitude for others helping them find their way there. Like everything in life:)
Click to expand...
I was talking about this earlier. What I had noticed is that those on the "profession" end of the spectrum and some collectors may have the impression that many makers closer to the "hobby" end of the spectrum are, as the English would say, "queering the pitch" for those trying to make money as makers or invest wisely as collectors, particularly when it comes to pricing issues. The other assumption may be that, at some point, you can really no longer be a "hobbyist" is you go beyond making knives for yourself or freebies for friends and family and are saddled with some degree of responsibility for the continued health of the custom cutlery market. One poster talked about how, in relative terms, the prices of custom knives have plummeted in the last 20 years, I say that is because of supply. There have been numerous posts on here about how the number of makers has increased at a much greater rate than the number of "serious" collectors. How many Master Smiths were there in 1989? How many are there now? 125? I would add that there has been a shift to some degree in perception regarding custom knives away from users and toward the collectible end of the market. I'm not sure how many people actually use their Randall's these days, but their business model seems to be the same as it was when I bought a couple of knives from them 17 or so years ago in that the still primairly make using type knives and their pricing isn't a whole lot different for their catalog models once you adjust for inflation. I know that they are not considered to be "custom" knives, but, as they are the one handmade knife that is widely known, I would think that they would be somewhat of a bellweather. The traditional "custom user" market may have also been diluted by the rise of high mid-tech/production knife compnaies, who not only have taken some potential custom business, but have also been very succesful in "upselling" buyers, particularly from the military and law enforcement community, who traditionally might have bought stuff from folks like Buck and Gerber in the past. As much as some may dislike Lynn Thompson, he was one of the early pioneers who revitalized the knife biz from the sorry state it was in back in the 80's. Ditto for folks like Sal at Syderco, Mike Stewart at Blackjack, and the folks at SOG and Benchmade. Does anyone else remember when the only decent "factory" knives readily available were Al Mar's? Talk amongst yourselves:D
 
Last edited:
jdm61 said:
One poster talked about how, in relative terms, the prices of custom knives have plummeted in the last 20 years, I say that is because of supply.
Click to expand...

I don't know how anyone could perceive that it is much else than supply. Many, many more knifemakers today than 20 years ago. I would love someone to come up with a graph showing the growth of table numbers at Blade for the last 20 years.
 
betzner said:
I don't know how anyone could perceive that it is much else than supply. Many, many more knifemakers today than 20 years ago. I would love someone to come up with a graph showing the growth of table numbers at Blade for the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

I would love to see attendance and knife sales numbers from Blade each year.
That would be an very valuable tool in tracking the state of collectible knives.
 
joshsmith said:
I hesitated to make the post I did and maybe I shouldn't have.

Collectors should be able to collect for fun but they should also understand some of the dynamics that make up the knife world. This was not a poor me post. I am one of the makers that is very lucky to have been successful in this. But I see many makers that love to do this but just can't make it.

I apologize if I cast a dark cloud on the subject but sometimes the curtain just needs pulled back a little. By doing so maybe it will help the maker and collector a bit down the road.
Click to expand...

No need to apologize and no dark cloud at all Josh. You have been involved in custom knives for years (since you were about 11, I believe) and will be involved MANY more years. IMO, you are just showing your admiration and concern for the future of this thing we ALL love.

Thank you for your comments. :thumbup:
 
For curiosity i think it would be quite valuable as an indicator to examine the raw data from Blade, to study the growth in the different sectors of the knife industry. I read Josh's post and wondered where the crux of the issue is.. Is it the influx of new makers that has a destabilizing effect?

My hunch is that knife wholesale sites such as Nordic having a bulk mentality, we see large volume discounts to move things quickly. The decreasing value of many older customs. Except the exceptions. New makers and established makers competeing in this "aftermarket" adds to a lot of slices in the same pie.
And, there's the American economy. If anything, this collectible market defies the odds, more than going to a downward spiral.
David
 
Interesting thread....Interesting ideas.

For me Full Time/Part Time makes no difference.

Pricing should be based on the makers position in the market. That is not to say that is always the case.

Just because a maker is full time does not mean that they should get more money.

Conversely, just because a maker is part time does not mean they should get less for their knife.

Most (well over 90%) of all the makers out there are part time. Most full time makers have additional financial support.

Question for Josh, do you fund your own medical insurance? Do without? Or use wife's medical insurance.

Im not picking on Josh, just curious.
 
We have medical through my wife. Like I stated we would not make it soley on my income with our way of life. If we cut back, downsized property, and lived very simply we could but our property is part of our retirement plan.
 
In fact insurance is the main reason my wife works. We may be able to make it without her income but there's no way we could afford similar coverage that the school offers.

Last year she went half time to be home with the kids more when Sadie was born and the only reason she didn't stay home full time with health insurance.
 
Hi Josh,

You don't have to defend or explain your families choices...they make perfect sense.

My point in asking this question was to "Qualify" the term "Full Time".

So while you are Full Time....you do not pay all of your families expenses with just the money from making knives.

So this is one category of Full Time makers. Those who are full time but have benefits and/or additional benefits from the spouse.

Now, should those who pay all of their families expenses by making knives get paid more?

What is the number of truly full time makers...those whose knife making provides their families or their only monetary support?

I would bet less than 100...less than 50...perhaps 25?

So we have hobbyist makers

hobbyist/part time makers (sales of knives supports the hobby)

Part time maker (sale of knives covers expenses to include shows, advertising, etc.)

Full time maker Has additional support either a pension, retirement, wife helping with support (medical if not any other financial way)

Full time maker The sale of knives supports all the makers bills.

Should the Full Time maker get more money for his knives than Josh (full time maker with additional support?) No.

Should Josh get more money for his knives than a part time maker? No.

The knife and the makers position in the market determines (to a large extent) what the maker can get for a knife.

It is a curious blend of business, craftsmanship and collector wants.

There is no one formula. What one person thinks is excellent another will not.

The forged blade market is starting to witness a "changing of the guard". Many MS makers will soon be pushed down the list of "Sought After" makers.

This is due in no small part to many of the JS makers (soon to be MS) makers are doing it better at a lower price point. Will this affect the top 20 MS makers? No But the rest had better start rethinking how they are doing things and what they are charging.

This needs to happen whether they are part time or full time.
 
As I have said, I really don't like the part-time/full-time designation in context most often addressed. As bad as its sounds, casual maker and serious possibly serves better for purposes being discussed.
 
the magic formula is;
business savvy
persona
pride in craftsmanship
willpower
vision
willingness to learn
humility
If you got that, this topic doesn't matter a nit. It's what you leave that determines your life's work once your gone. The amount of time you spend doing this or that is less relevant than the essence, after all.
 
I work full time, but my wife works as well. I would be willing to bet that is the case in most households. Having a wife that works has nothing to do with being a full time maker.
 
Les,

As is stated this is not a full time/ part time issue. It's serious versus casual. Many part timers fall into the serious category. If I were a collector I would just do some homework and try to buy from makers that will continue to improve their work and market position with some very simple questions.
 
joshsmith said:
I was one of the makers that approached Kevin about this full time part/ part time concern.

Let me begin by stating a few things so my words are not taken the wrong way.

Full time makers do not guarantee quality, collect-ability, or sound business skills.

Being a part time maker does not mean your work should not be taken seriously, collected, sought after, and praised.

The best part time makers can do wonders for the full time maker.

When I approached Kevin about this subject it was in the hopes that the new collectors association could help collectors understand the benefits of buying knives from the SERIOUS MAKER. Full time/part time is probably not the correct distinction. I think Kevin understand this completely. Kevin is a collector trying to advance the knife world, hence the CKCA.

A serious maker in my opinion is someone who builds knives not only to the best of their ability but also does everything he can to help put value back into those knives over time benefiting the maker and collector. By doing this the maker would probably do things to increase his exposure like shows, website, advertising, having photos shot of his work, staying in touch with his collectors, and representing the knife world the best he can. He would also continually seek a better way to create his work through classes and self analyzing of his own practices.

I have many friends in the knife world I consider non-serious. These makers build knives, maybe quite a few a year, but do nothing to advance the knife world or the value of their own knives. Many of these guys sell a perfectly clean folder/fixed blade with little to nothing wrong with the knife for drastically less than would the SERIOUS maker. They are fine gentleman with the best of intentions but they are doing this for fun and are not concerned with the value of their knives in the future. It's only about making a knife, and then selling it to make another.

My view is bias and I understand. Trying to make it full time with three young kids, house land and shop payments, three vehicles, equipment additions to my shop, show expenses, day care, material purchasing for future knives, and oh yeah fun have made me a bit sensitive to this subject. My situation is no different than most full time makers. My wife does teach school which gives us health benefits and the extra money that makes this ship float. Her income allows me to put more "knife" money back into my business which go to the things I mentioned about like training, equipment, tools, materials, etc. We could not make it without the others income.

Many part time makers, some mentioned in this thread are actually helping the full time maker. They are making killer work and charging what the knife actually warrants because if it doesn't sell it won't break them. Many full time makers are afraid to charge that extra 1000 because they need the money right away. That extra 1000 is their profit.

A SERIOUS maker would not under cut his own prices. If I make and sell a knife for 1000 and the next week make and sell the same knife for 500 I've just screwed the first collector out of 500. The SERIOUS maker would price the first knife according to time, materials, and percent of profit desired and the only option for the second knife is to sell it for the same price, or better. If the maker is good he'll figure out how to make it faster and in turn make a better profit.

I do not begrudge these makers for being part time. Any maker that's 45 and near retirement with a pension should go for mental help if they quit and go full time knives.

CKCA Goal
I would just like to see collectors quiz makers on their careers a bit more. Here are some questions. Whether you are full time or part time I would think a serious maker could answer these questions in a way that gives that collector confidence that he won't be gone the next day.

Are you full time or part time? (If not why and how much time do you dedicate to knives a week or month.) (If so, do you enjoy it.) Hopefully he will show a passion for it.

What are your goals in the knife world?

What are some new things you are learning or working on?

Do you attend shows, have a website, advertise, or have photos taken of your work?

Collector questions to himself

Does this maker seem dedicated?
Does he sound like he is doing everything he can to improve his work, his exposure, his business practices, and his collect-ability?
Is the knife I'm buying priced in a way that reflects the makers effort and dedication to his craft?

This is not for everyone and I understand that. Some guys make for fun and collect with no regard for the future.

I love making knives and love interacting with you collectors. Thanks for having this debate. Sorry for rambling so long.
Click to expand...

Well said. I've been contemplating where the basis for this discussion lies, since it seems to be a question of classification. And the point made about stereotypes, which are often misleading. (Full time= better).
The question i would ask, and this may be irrelevant, do makers and organizations judge other makers on the full/part time status. And is it talked about in the same way, JS/MS stamps add higher prestige?
David
 
Last edited:
What Josh describes as a "Serious" knife maker seems to more appropriate to describing a knife maker who treats their work as a business.

Most knife makers think that other knife makers sell their work to cheap. This is why I recommend knife makers don't ask other knife makers for pricing advice. They are too "close" to the process(s) and feel the maker should get more because of the amount of work that went into the knife.

As well most custom knife makers do not buy custom knives. Consequently, while they have best of intentions...their opinions have to be taken less "seriously" as they are not buyers. This is especially true if the maker is more established. They base pricing information on the here and now. Not what they got when they had been only making knives for 4 or 5 years.

So we don't like Full Time/Part Time, Ok.

I think if you talk with most makers....especially those who set up at shows, will tell you they are "serious" about making knives. To the point that they may resent being called a "Casual" maker.

No one likes the Lexicon of custom knives more than I. Those words help provide a general base of knowledge for everyone. The problem is that eventually the words will get twisted to sell more....try to fit a knife or a maker into a category where it does not belong.

Example....Tactical. This is a marketing term referring to a "look" and materials and process used on a knife. Most people think of black/gray look to the knife.

While judging at the Blade Show a maker entered a Damascus bladed, Mokume bolstered, Mastodon Ivory scaled folder in the "Tactical" knife category. There were other categories for folders that would have been much better suited for this knife. Because the knife was entered in the Tactical category he stood no chance of winning.

I know the maker and I know who he trained with (a very serious maker whose sole support is from the custom knives he makes). Yet this maker misunderstood the category. Oddly enough there were a couple other knives in the "Tactical" category that had Ivory or Pearl scales.

Instead of Full Time Maker, Part Time Maker, Serious Maker and Casual Maker...there should just be Custom Knife Maker.

Any organization can have their "definitions" and/or standards. However, they will only apply to those within that organization. The Knifemakers Guild had their "Definitions" and after years of "Non-Enforcement" they decided "Enforce" the rules. This ended up costing the Guild the majority of the Tactical makers setting up at the Guild Show.

BTW, in 2009 the Guild Show is moving to Louisville KY.

The result? The Blade Show became the pre-eminent custom knife show in the US. It was only a few years ago that the Blade Show was much smaller than it is now. When the show first moved to Atlanta the entire show was in a ballroom about a 5th of the size it is now. Of course the custom knives were in one room and the other knives were in a smaller ball room across the hall.

While the Internet has been responsible for some other shows growing smaller...it has had the opposite affect on the Blade Show.

Another cautionary tale is the National Knife Collector Association. Easily the largest collector association in the US...at one time. I joined in 1986. Their violation was not one of definitions...but one of direction by the Board of Directors. They felt the direction for the organization should go a certain way and focus on a certain category of knives. This cost them 10,000 members + the Museum location in Chattanooga TN + Their Magazine. The NKCA became focused on the needs of the few and ignored the wishes of the majority.

Numbers of collectors, attendance at shows, etc. if you could get a true and accurate number. At best it would give a "snapshot" in time as to what the collectors wanted when. A time tested and very accurate indicator of collectors wants and desires....follow the MONEY.

Custom knives truly do benefit from "Trickle Down Economics". The more money the top makers get....the more money everyone else can ask (doesn't mean they will get it :D).
 
Hi Josh,

Do you attend shows, have a website, advertise, or have photos taken of your work?
Click to expand...

Interesting that you wrote this. Since you have stated you have never spent any money on advertising.

Does this make you a less serious maker than someone who does advertise?

Have you started advertising in magazines and I missed it (very possible as I tend to look at the advertising of makers I don't know).
 
Les,

This is too restrictive a definition of full time. I work full time and so does my partner. We each get health insurance from our job. Our son is on her insurance, for a variety of reasons, none of which having to do with money or quality of care. Also, my partner (who is smarter and harder working than I am) makes much more money than I do, and she ends up paying more than 50% of some expenses, namely housing. Does that mean I don't work full time? Of course not.

In a couple, people contribute differently to the overall family budget. As a father yourself, you know full well that money, benefits, time (to take care of the children), etc, are contributed differently. Different couples have a different set-up, but typically, the man provides a disproportionate share of the $ and the woman a disproportionate share of the time. In such cases where the woman contributes more time, does it mean the man doesn't work full time, since he doesn't have to pay for childcare provided by his mate? Of course not.

The typical knifemaking family has probably a different set-up where the non-knifemaker contributes a bit more $ and a lot more insurance, and the knifemaker maybe quite a bit more time (or some time flexibility at least). That doesn't make that another definition of full time.

JD
 
Les,

Now that you're here, I'd love it if you could comment on my earlier posts. I'm puzzled and since you've been in the biz for a long time, your insight would be very interesting.


Joss said:
I think that the premice is actually looking at facts the wrong way, with all due respect. There are a lot of part-timers selling knives at low prices simply because the market (i.e., us) will not support higher prices, except from a few chosen individuals. That creates a bottle neck for makers wherebuy only a few of them can afford to go FT, and even fewer can make good money at it.

If the market was willing to pay $5,000+ for a damascus bowie with a wood handle (thinking of the Caldwell Ranger piece here), then you would see more makers going FT.

What's interesting to me is why the average level of prices for a given level of quality & renown has gone down so dramatically over the last 20 - 25 years, i.e., why the market has stopped being willing to pay those prices.

(...)

My point is, how come the top dollar makers nowadays are getting so much less than the top dollar makers used to? How many makers can routinely charge $3,000, $5,000, or more for a straight knife with no engraving nowadays? And I'm not very knowledgeable in the folder biz, but I suspect it's the same, except the price points are higher.

I see knives selling (or not selling!) on Nordic for not 20% or 30% off, but 75%-to-90% off the prices they were selling for initially, then some of those get snatched by less hurried dealers and end up being sold still at a big discount - and I'm talking nominal prices. The picture gets even more ugly when factoring in 20+ years of inflation.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top