Full-time or Part-time; Any difference?

[Joss]

I think that the premice is actually looking at facts the wrong way, with all due respect. There are a lot of part-timers selling knives at low prices simply because the market (i.e., us) will not support higher prices, except from a few chosen individuals. That creates a bottle neck for makers wherebuy only a few of them can afford to go FT, and even fewer can make good money at it.

If the market was willing to pay $5,000+ for a damascus bowie with a wood handle (thinking of the Caldwell Ranger piece here), then you would see more makers going FT.

What's interesting to me is why the average level of prices for a given level of quality & renown has gone down so dramatically over the last 20 - 25 years, i.e., why the market has stopped being willing to pay those prices.

 

[jdm61]

I gotta chime in here.........

I have been making knives for quite a while, and one thing I noticed early on that struck a cord deep inside.

MANY of the full time makers that I met were retired, with a nice healthy retirement check coming in regularly, AND had a wife with a good job.
Not always the case, but I would bet fifty percent.


I also have a comment for BETZNER.........and this is NOT to detract from Mr Ericksons considerable skills.....

Many knifemakers can make a knife without solder. Sure it takes a careful fit but its not that hard.......it is MUCH harder to do a solder joint like Steve Johnson, and the whole purpose of the effort, which is considerable, let me tell you, is to seal the junction so there can NEVER be any rust creeping out of said juncture.

I was there at the introduction of the solderless joint....I have looked at a lot of them........heck, even Jim and Bob Loveless are doing them now, but people are taking the easy way out leaving off the solder, the flux, and the ensuing mess that must be cleaned up and made immaculate to end up with a knife of the quality of Steve Johnson.

Again......I appreciate the pics, and the considerable skill required to make the knife above, and I bet he can solder with the best of them.

I'm not sure how other folks are doing it, but my solderless joints are not unsealed. I use J.B. Weld becauce i can't seem to get the hang of soldering...lol.

 

[jdm61]

I think that the premice is actually looking at facts the wrong way, with all due respect. There are a lot of part-timers selling knives at low prices simply because the market (i.e., us) will not support higher prices, except from a few chosen individuals. That creates a bottle neck for makers wherebuy only a few of them can afford to go FT, and even fewer can make good money at it.

If the market was willing to pay $5,000+ for a damascus bowie with a wood handle (thinking of the Caldwell Ranger piece here), then you would see more makers going FT.

What's interesting to me is why the average level of prices for a given level of quality & renown has gone down so dramatically over the last 20 - 25 years, i.e., why the market has stopped being willing to pay those prices.

Supply..........the market will not accept anything less than near perfection in a collectable knife and with the pure numbers of makers out there now and the help that has become available though organizaions like the ABS, Guild, local organizations and the forums, there are a LOT of folks making VERY nice knives that are not well known old hands. I think that I would be very lucky to get $600 for a damascus bowie with a wood handle once I actually start making damascus. High quality customs knives and particularly damascus steel are not unique like they were 20 years ago. You don't even have to make your own damscus. You can buy high quality bar stock, blade blanks or completed blades, mosaic blosters, etc. To me, a guy like Don Hanson is in a unique postion. Although he has made knives for many years, he is relatively new in the grand scheme of things to the big forged fixed blade market and yet he still gets top dollar. I'm sure that a lot of that rubbed off from him making outrageous good folders for so long and the fact that he makes some of the most incredible bowies out there, but I still haven't figured out this market

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Full or part time doesn't even enter into the equation when it comes to my selecting a maker. My decision is made totally by the quality of work that I have seen from the maker. In fact, I have never even thought about them being full or part time. Maybe I should. Those that are full time need to sell knives to pay the bills. Those that are part time don't. It's something to think about, but I doubt that it will affect my knife purchasing decisions.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.
First, I do not equate knife quality with full/part-time status. I do however believe a maker who has the luxury of only making 10-12 knives a year has an opportunity to perhaps produce a better knife than a maker with similar skills that has to make 40-60 knives per to support his family. .

WOW I totally disagree with that statement. I know of several outstanding makers, both full and part time and I would never say a full time maker puts out less quality then a part timer when he knows every knife he makes and sells could cost him his business (income) if it wasn't the best he could make.
I'm full time, have been for several years and I take pride in every knife I make, I strive to improve and better each and every knife that comes from my shop for I know my income DOES depend on it. Any poor feedback could cost me several sales or worse yet my business all together, so why would I take a chance by putting out something inferrior that could cost me eveything its taken me years to build. There might be a few makers out there like that, but there not in business very long.

Good Post Nick, I don't expect anyone else to work for Minimum wage so why should anyone expect knifemakers to. Its like my father used to say, quality doesn't come cheap, if you want cheap you'll have to go somewhere else.

Bill

Bill, where did I say that full-time makers put out less quality than part-time? I said that full-time/part-time status made NO difference in quality in my opinion. I did say a maker who has the luxury of only making 10-12 knives a year has an opportunity to perhaps produce a better knife than a maker with similar skills that has to make 40-60 knives. Take Jerry Fisk, Tim Hancock, Don Hanson for example. If these guys had a whole month to complete one knife, how perfect would their knives be? Jerry makes about 45-50 knives a year to amazing standards.

 

[Joss]

To me, a guy like Don Hanson is in a unique postion. Although he has made knives for many years, he is relatively new in the grand scheme of things to the big forged fixed blade market and yet he still gets top dollar.

Obviously I didn't explain myself well. My point is, how come the top dollar makers nowadays are getting so much less than the top dollar makers used to? How many makers can routinely charge $3,000, $5,000, or more for a straight knife with no engraving nowadays? And I'm not very knowledgeable in the folder biz, but I suspect it's the same, except the price points are higher.

I see knives selling (or not selling!) on Nordic for not 20% or 30% off, but 75%-to-90% off the prices they were selling for initially, then some of those get snatched by less hurried dealers and end up being sold still at a big discount - and I'm talking nominal prices. The picture gets even more ugly when factoring in 20+ years of inflation.

 

[jdm61]

Obviously I didn't explain myself well. My point is, how come the top dollar makers nowadays are getting so much less than the top dollar makers used to? How many makers can routinely charge $3,000, $5,000, or more for a straight knife with no engraving nowadays? And I'm not very knowledgeable in the folder biz, but I suspect it's the same, except the price points are higher.

I see knives selling (or not selling!) on Nordic for not 20% or 30% off, but 75%-to-90% off the prices they were selling for initially, then some of those get snatched by less hurried dealers and end up being sold still at a big discount - and I'm talking nominal prices. The picture gets even more ugly when factoring in 20+ years of inflation.

Bob Loveless. I know what you mean. I know that a lot of part time/hobbyists guys sell nice little users for next to nothing, but when I asked what a forged hunter of reasonable quality should sell for, I was a bit surprised. The number said that after I accounted for materials, sheath expendables and other associated costs, I would probably have $50 and no more than $75 left over for my labor cost before I accounted for anything like advertsing or dealer discounts. There are "production" knives that sell for more than what I can get for a comparable knife.

 

[Kevin Jones]

i am curious as to why you think this is necessary or even desirable

By unity in price structure, I'm not referring to all knives being equally priced, however being somewhat consistence in price for like type/quality knives offered from makers, dealers and collectors to support a healthy primary and secondary market for all concerned.
Right now there is practically no secondary market for many maker's knives to spite some collector's ability to turn a modest profit or at least not lose too much as they sell to adjust their collections.

But let's not turn this into a "are custom knives investments" thread because they never seem to tun out pretty.

 

[Pete Crowl]

Those that are full time need to sell knives to pay the bills. Those that are part time don't.

Keith, I respectfully disagree with the second sentence. As a part-time maker in this business, I HAVE to sell knives to pay the bills generated by being in business. Web sites, Attending shows, Supplies, Advertising(I'm working on) etc. Those thing all have upfront costs. I won't use my day job income to support my "part-time" business.

I might understand the point you want to make. I won't starve if I don't sell my knives. I just won't be in business anymore.

This is a good thread

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think that some people have said that full time makers who have a wife with a good job and health benefits, etc are not the same as a maker who makes his income solely from knifemaking without a spouse to take up the slack.
I am a full time maker who has a wife with a state job and benefits, but I still need to make a certain amount of money each week to supplement her income and to pay for my bills associated with knifemaking.
As a full time maker, I do not feel that I have the time to make the really nice pieces that I know I am capable of. I have to concrentrate on the value added bread and butter knives that will put food on the table. I am going to try to work harder to break that tradition by attempting to do a upscale knife once a month and maybe have a few for the shows that I attend.
I would suggest that maybe someone who has a little time on their hands create a survey and divide the makers among a number of collectors and call the makers listed in the back of the Knives 2008 annuals and compile the information that you are looking for. I'm sure that would be the best way to find out approx how many full time makers are currently making knives.

I agree with you Bobby as I know quite a few full time makers whose wives work to help supplement family income, especially form the health insurance standpoint.
But you still have to be profitable in your knife business. It must be incredibly difficult to support a family these days entirely on making knives. And not only that, it must be a hard way to make a living in general from a labor standpoint in making knives full time.

To your next point as to finding the number of full-time vs part-time makers. There so much information that's only a guess in regard to the custom knife industry such as;

How many custom knives are sold each year?
How many full time makers? Part time?
How many collectors?
What's the average value of custom knife collections?

I'm in the process of negotiating a CKCA group membership discount with a major collectible insurance company, however they want to know answers to questions such as the above.
Other collectible entities that get group discounts such as stamp and gun organizations are able to quote this information.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I did say a maker who has the luxury of only making 10-12 knives a year has an opportunity to perhaps produce a better knife than a maker with similar skills that has to make 40-60 knives. Take Jerry Fisk, Tim Hancock, Don Hanson for example. If these guys had a whole month to complete one knife, how perfect would their knives be? Jerry makes about 45-50 knives a year to amazing standards.

You have not factored in the 40 to 50 hours a week that part time makers put into their regular jobs. When you work it all out, part time makers that are making 12 knives a year have no more time to work on each knife than do full time makers that make 50 knives a year.

 

[jdm61]

Keith, I respectfully disagree with the second sentence. As a part-time maker in this business, I HAVE to sell knives to pay the bills generated by being in business. Web sites, Attending shows, Supplies, Advertising(I'm working on) etc. Those thing all have upfront costs. I won't use my day job income to support my "part-time" business.

I might understand the point you want to make. I won't starve if I don't sell my knives. I just won't be in business anymore.

This is a good thread

Good point. I said earlier that in this game, you tend to graduate from "hobbyist" to part timer. To me, when you have a hobby, most of the time all of the cashflow is outbound. By contrast, it seems that most knifemakers, even the ones who call themsleves hobbyists, would like to be able to at least cover their costs. The "hobby" seems to have developed into a business while we weren't looking

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Keith, I respectfully disagree with the second sentence. As a part-time maker in this business, I HAVE to sell knives to pay the bills generated by being in business. Web sites, Attending shows, Supplies, Advertising(I'm working on) etc. Those thing all have upfront costs. I won't use my day job income to support my "part-time" business.

I might understand the point you want to make. I won't starve if I don't sell my knives. I just won't be in business anymore.

This is a good thread

Of course part time makers still have bills related to their knifemaking, but their other jobs supply the money (maybe with help from their wives' jobs) to pay the big bills. Full time makers (also maybe with the help of their wives' jobs) have to sell knives to pay the morgage, food bills, car payments, kids braces, etc. The pressure to sell knives is much different for full time vis a vis part time makers.

 

[B . Buxton]

Kevin, I'm sorry but the number of knives a maker puts out in a years time shouldn't dictate the attention to quality and detail. If I make 10 knives this year or 100, each knife will get the same attention to quality and detail as the last or the next, hopefully improving with each one.. Just because a full time maker produces more, doesn't mean lack of anything, it just means he works harder. I can't speak for Don or Jerry, but I'd bet they work as hard on every knife as they can, to produce the very best they can, numbers mean nothing.
I put the amount of time into each knife as it requires, many times this gets ridiculously long and my wages drop lower and lower with each passing hour, but when I'm done I know I've done my very best and didn't skimp just because I had to start another one tomorrow or the next day, I feel my customers deserve my very best and thats what I give them. So please don't say that a part time maker can perhaps produce a better knife because he produces fewer.

Have a good day,

Bill

 

[lwrhea]

Of course part time makers still have bills related to their knifemaking, but their other jobs supply the money (maybe with help from their wives' jobs) to pay the big bills.

That all depends on how you set up your business. Yes, the seed money has to come from somewhere. But after a while the business should support itself and pay back the seed money too.
Lin

 

[Keith Montgomery]

That all depends on how you set up your business. Yes, the seed money has to come from somewhere. But after a while the business should support itself and pay back the seed money too.

If you are going to make knives, it doesn't matter if you are part time or full time, you should make it as profitable a business as you can.

 

[betzner]

Many knifemakers can make a knife without solder. Sure it takes a careful fit but its not that hard.......it is MUCH harder to do a solder joint like Steve Johnson, and the whole purpose of the effort, which is considerable, let me tell you, is to seal the junction so there can NEVER be any rust creeping out of said juncture.

I gotta chime in again. I would rather see an absolutely perfect fit, which most makers never achieve, than look at the best of solder lines. I suppose it's a personal preference, having Drapers, Ericksons and Warenski that date 20 to 40 years old - without solder, just perfect fits - and without any rust.

I suppose if the knife is to survive a couple centuries, solder would be important to me - I would just rather see the craftsmanship of the fit.

But I do agree it takes alot of special effort for the solder line to "blend". I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it, as it was a little off subject to begin with. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, I'm sorry but the number of knives a maker puts out in a years time shouldn't dictate the attention to quality and detail. If I make 10 knives this year or 100, each knife will get the same attention to quality and detail as the last or the next, hopefully improving with each one.. Just because a full time maker produces more, doesn't mean lack of anything, it just means he works harder. I can't speak for Don or Jerry, but I'd bet they work as hard on every knife as they can, to produce the very best they can, numbers mean nothing.
I put the amount of time into each knife as it requires, many times this gets ridiculously long and my wages drop lower and lower with each passing hour, but when I'm done I know I've done my very best and didn't skimp just because I had to start another one tomorrow or the next day, I feel my customers deserve my very best and thats what I give them. So please don't say that a part time maker can perhaps produce a better knife because he produces fewer.

Have a good day,

Bill

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here Bill. You use the words shouldn't dictate above. And I agree that quantity of knives shouldn't dictate quality, however this is the real world and knifemakers are human. I have witnessed first hand more than once where a maker (full or part time no matter) has gotten behind on his knives for a show and the result is a noticable difference from what one has been accustomed to seeing.

I certainly don't dispute your work ethic or your knives as I have never had the pleasure of handling one, however I will dispute your general claims regarding fulltime makers.
Because being designated a "fulltime" maker doesn't necessarily make one the hardest worker or give the ability to make the best knives.

As far as fulltime/part-time as I said, I don't put much weight in those labels as it more describes one having one or two jobs rather than their knife making ability.

 

[B . Buxton]

Kevin, Yes I did use the words "shouldn't dictate" and I stand by them, and I do live in the real world. I can/will guarantee any knife that leaves my shop to be the best I can make it and I don't care how far behind I am.
This profession is as much a labor of pride as it is anything else, anyone willing to skimp on that gives knifemakers full or part time everywhere a bad name and should be avoided..

Have a good evening,

Bill

 

[RogerP]

Kevin, Yes I did use the words "shouldn't dictate" and I stand by them, and I do live in the real world. I can/will guarantee any knife that leaves my shop to be the best I can make it and I don't care how far behind I am.
This profession is as much a labor of pride as it is anything else, anyone willing to skimp on that gives knifemakers full or part time everywhere a bad name and should be avoided..

Have a good evening,

Bill

Agree completely - this is as it should be. A maker of integrity (full or part time) will only let a knife leave his shop when it represents the best work he can do. It's not a question of having the "luxury" of extra time, but the dedication to commit the time and effort necessary to do the job right.

Roger