Full-time or Part-time; Any difference?

This is a strange game. How many hobbyists have you ever heard talk about how many radio controlled airplanes, model ships, ceramic ashtrays, or dry flies they have to sell before their expenses are covered? The current state of the knifemaking hobby seems to dicate that you run it using some kind of business model. The cost of equipment surely has something to do with that, but that cannot be the whole story. My late uncle was an aeronautical engine who had a complete home metalworking and workworking shop for building model airplanes and to the best of my knowlege, he never sold a single one........hell, he was his father's son in that he probably never completed half of the huge volume of projects he had going on just like my grandfather, who could have been the inspiration for Rube Goldberg's cartoons....lol. The "informal" expectations not only of the market, but that knife guys put on thereselves are pretty high......about as high as any formal requirements that the various knifemaking organizations have set.
 
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B . Buxton said:
Kevin, Yes I did use the words "shouldn't dictate" and I stand by them, and I do live in the real world. I can/will guarantee any knife that leaves my shop to be the best I can make it and I don't care how far behind I am.
This profession is as much a labor of pride as it is anything else, anyone willing to skimp on that gives knifemakers full or part time everywhere a bad name and should be avoided..

Have a good evening,

Bill
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I also agree.
 
RogerP said:
Agree completely - this is as it should be. A maker of integrity (full or part time) will only let a knife leave his shop when it represents the best work he can do. It's not a question of having the "luxury" of extra time, but the dedication to commit the time and effort necessary to do the job right.

Roger
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Have you ever heard the saying "there's no such thing as the perfect knife, however if there were no one would be able to afford it". ;)
 
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What is a GOOD knife, anyway?

Does this have any basis in reality, or is it just one man's idea?

Sorry for the tangent but this conversation goes there.
David
 
2knife said:
What is a GOOD knife, anyway?
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A Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, when asked to define pornography, once said " I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it."

I kinda figure that is as far as we will ever really get in trying to put a label on what makes a good knife. It's a definition that probably works for everybody. I think I am just saying what Keith did, just using an example.
 
I was one of the makers that approached Kevin about this full time part/ part time concern.

Let me begin by stating a few things so my words are not taken the wrong way.

Full time makers do not guarantee quality, collect-ability, or sound business skills.

Being a part time maker does not mean your work should not be taken seriously, collected, sought after, and praised.

The best part time makers can do wonders for the full time maker.

When I approached Kevin about this subject it was in the hopes that the new collectors association could help collectors understand the benefits of buying knives from the SERIOUS MAKER. Full time/part time is probably not the correct distinction. I think Kevin understand this completely. Kevin is a collector trying to advance the knife world, hence the CKCA.

A serious maker in my opinion is someone who builds knives not only to the best of their ability but also does everything he can to help put value back into those knives over time benefiting the maker and collector. By doing this the maker would probably do things to increase his exposure like shows, website, advertising, having photos shot of his work, staying in touch with his collectors, and representing the knife world the best he can. He would also continually seek a better way to create his work through classes and self analyzing of his own practices.

I have many friends in the knife world I consider non-serious. These makers build knives, maybe quite a few a year, but do nothing to advance the knife world or the value of their own knives. Many of these guys sell a perfectly clean folder/fixed blade with little to nothing wrong with the knife for drastically less than would the SERIOUS maker. They are fine gentleman with the best of intentions but they are doing this for fun and are not concerned with the value of their knives in the future. It's only about making a knife, and then selling it to make another.

My view is bias and I understand. Trying to make it full time with three young kids, house land and shop payments, three vehicles, equipment additions to my shop, show expenses, day care, material purchasing for future knives, and oh yeah fun have made me a bit sensitive to this subject. My situation is no different than most full time makers. My wife does teach school which gives us health benefits and the extra money that makes this ship float. Her income allows me to put more "knife" money back into my business which go to the things I mentioned about like training, equipment, tools, materials, etc. We could not make it without the others income.

Many part time makers, some mentioned in this thread are actually helping the full time maker. They are making killer work and charging what the knife actually warrants because if it doesn't sell it won't break them. Many full time makers are afraid to charge that extra 1000 because they need the money right away. That extra 1000 is their profit.

A SERIOUS maker would not under cut his own prices. If I make and sell a knife for 1000 and the next week make and sell the same knife for 500 I've just screwed the first collector out of 500. The SERIOUS maker would price the first knife according to time, materials, and percent of profit desired and the only option for the second knife is to sell it for the same price, or better. If the maker is good he'll figure out how to make it faster and in turn make a better profit.

I do not begrudge these makers for being part time. Any maker that's 45 and near retirement with a pension should go for mental help if they quit and go full time knives.

CKCA Goal
I would just like to see collectors quiz makers on their careers a bit more. Here are some questions. Whether you are full time or part time I would think a serious maker could answer these questions in a way that gives that collector confidence that he won't be gone the next day.

Are you full time or part time? (If not why and how much time do you dedicate to knives a week or month.) (If so, do you enjoy it.) Hopefully he will show a passion for it.

What are your goals in the knife world?

What are some new things you are learning or working on?

Do you attend shows, have a website, advertise, or have photos taken of your work?

Collector questions to himself

Does this maker seem dedicated?
Does he sound like he is doing everything he can to improve his work, his exposure, his business practices, and his collect-ability?
Is the knife I'm buying priced in a way that reflects the makers effort and dedication to his craft?

This is not for everyone and I understand that. Some guys make for fun and collect with no regard for the future.

I love making knives and love interacting with you collectors. Thanks for having this debate. Sorry for rambling so long.
 
severedthumbs said:
WOW somehow collecting knives isnt fun anymore.
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In reading this thread I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

I realize it is a livelihood for many and it IS a SERIOUS business, but for me I collect knives for fun.

Naturally, I spend time here and in educating myself about knives because it brings me enjoyment. When it doesn't, I will probably do something else.

In the posts within this thread, many different financial requirements for those making knives have been put forth. One thing that stands out to me is that it is by no means a lucrative way to earn a living and very few people are fortunate enough to be in a good financial situation solely by making and selling knives.

I think it is an artistic endeavor and those that do it are in it mostly for the love of the art.

When I consider buying a knife, I simply consider what I am getting for the price and while the makers reputation is part of the equation, whether they are part time of full time is irrevelant.

Peter
 
2knife said:
What is a GOOD knife, anyway?

Does this have any basis in reality, or is it just one man's idea?

Sorry for the tangent but this conversation goes there.
David
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What constitutes a GOOD knife is subjective. What one collector recognizes as a GOOD knife another will fine defects.

A knife that one maker determines is fit for delivery to a customer, would never leave another maker's shop.

Different makers, collectors and dealers have different standards as to what constitutes a good knife.
 
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The best example of a part time maker who does incredible work, is highly sought after, only makes 10-12 knives a year and has a secondary market that doubles or triples the price of his knives is -
Wolfgang Lorchner.
 
betzner said:
A Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, when asked to define pornography, once said " I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it."

I kinda figure that is as far as we will ever really get in trying to put a label on what makes a good knife. It's a definition that probably works for everybody. I think I am just saying what Keith did, just using an example.
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As was stated during the CKCA seminar at Blade, we will approach this from two angles:

First and more immediate, we are creating a "Virtual Knife Inspection".
One of our maker/members will take members through the knife inspection process step by step on video. How many times has a new collector bought what he/she considered the perfect knife only to have the first person he shows it to point out defects.

And second, which will require an enormous amount of time, input, communication and coordination from makers, collectors and dealers is a "CKCA Certification and Testing" process which will universally address both forged and stock removal knives.

Both of these processes are currently under development.
 
Back in the day, the collectors did not look forward to seeing a maker to go full time because the makers who went full time usually had to double their prices to be able to make some sort of a living.
BB
 
severedthumbs said:
WOW somehow collecting knives isnt fun anymore.
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I hesitated to make the post I did and maybe I shouldn't have.

Collectors should be able to collect for fun but they should also understand some of the dynamics that make up the knife world. This was not a poor me post. I am one of the makers that is very lucky to have been successful in this. But I see many makers that love to do this but just can't make it.

I apologize if I cast a dark cloud on the subject but sometimes the curtain just needs pulled back a little. By doing so maybe it will help the maker and collector a bit down the road.
 
I think what you will find is that most of non-serious makers are those that are making knives as a hobby, not a profession. As Josh stated, part time or full time makes no difference when it comes to being a serious knifemaker.

It is understandable that some people think that all the importance that is being put on makers and collectors supporting the aftermarket, and knives as an investment in recent threads, takes away from why the collect knives; for the fun of it. However, you can still have fun collecting knives while learning about making your purchases sound investments. In fact, it can add to the enjoyment, because it increases your knowledge and helps you make better puchasing decisions.

Josh, you don't have to apologise for your post. People should be able to understand where you are coming from. What you posted about happens whether people read or hear about it, or not. It shouldn't take away from the fun of collecting. It just helps people to be more informed.
 
I hesitated to make the post I did and maybe I shouldn't have.
Josh
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Josh, I actually applaud you for posting this:thumbup: I think that if we (makers and collectors) both understand the dynamics of this part of the collecting world/business better it will benefit both in the short and long term.

Collecting knives is FUN but also has to be perceived as a business from both the makers and collectors otherwise there soon wouldn't be any makers or collectors left:D;)

Marcel
 
Very interesting discussion. It made me think: If I am selling a knife for $250 as a part-time maker with full benefits at my main job, could I afford to sell it for $250 if my making was required to fund my insurance and everything else by itself?

Perhaps part-time makers price a bit lower simply because they have not been forced by necessity to evaluate the TRUE cost of each knife they make. ( and maybe they don't want to realize what their actual hourly salary is, haha!) I consider my time and the materials, but as a part-time maker, don't usually consider my tool depreciation, electricity, heating or property tax into my knife prices. Its a luxury to not have to since those things aren't solely dependant on selling knives.

All that being said, beyond intrinsic value of a maker's name, I think that a knife's value has nothing to do with if the maker is part-time or fulltime. The hours to complete it are the same, the materials are the same, and its quality should be the same. In theory, if I went fulltime and had 3x the shoptime available, I should simply put out 3X the volume of work at the same quality. I would assume I would put out a bit more than a straight percentage increase, though, since consecutive hours in the shop would allow me to work on things in sucession rather than having to start and stop over and over.

My skills, though, would increase faster than a straight-line increase, I think. Building muscle memory is very dependant on constant repetition...so doing things part time probably puts me on a much longer learning curve than someone equally skilled with more time in the shop. I think that if I practiced grinding for 10 hours total in one-hour blocks once a month for 10 months, someone practicing for 5 hours a day in two days would yield more gains, but thats just a guess.
 
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peterinct said:
In reading this thread I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

I realize it is a livelihood for many and it IS a SERIOUS business, but for me I collect knives for fun.

Naturally, I spend time here and in educating myself about knives because it brings me enjoyment. When it doesn't, I will probably do something else.

Peter
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MOST people started collecting knives for fun, and if they stay with it, would hope that it continues to be.

However, when you have spent high five figures or more, some thought must be given to the "investment/return/saleability" of your knives, unless you simply plan on buying until you run out of room.

Thinking about the economic worth of your collection may not be fun, but ignoring it, and "hoping for the best" for any serious collector, is LESS fun.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kevin Jones said:
As was stated during the CKCA seminar at Blade, we will approach this from two angles:

First and more immediate, we are creating a "Virtual Knife Inspection".
One of our maker/members will take members through the knife inspection process step by step on video. How many times has a new collector bought what he/she considered the perfect knife only to have the first person he shows it to point out defects.

And second, which will require an enormous amount of time, input, communication and coordination from makers, collectors and dealers is a "CKCA Certification and Testing" process which will universally address both forged and stock removal knives.

Both of these processes are currently under development.
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As I was typing my point about what a "good" knife is, this very point came to mind. I chose not to address the fact that the CKCA intended to, in some way, discuss taking on the challenge of this definition.

I, for one, believe that a true attempt to come up with a certification for a knife, one that will safisfy most with out driving them away first, may be destined for failure unless it is broad in scope to the extreme. But I wish the CKCA luck!!
 
When it comes to the kind of knives I collect, which are users not safe-queens, part-time vs. full-time is not as important as experience. As put by Mr. Schott, "building muscle memory is very dependant on constant repetition..." Hobbyist, or part-time makers with only a few years experience, can be spotted instantly by their final edge grind. Inexperience will tell, maybe not on every knife, but on many.

Don't forget, a part-time maker that's been doing it for 20 years has more experience than a guy in his early 20s that's full time but only for 2 years.

However, inexperience in some areas, such as heat treat cannot be spotted "by eye" and that's where I'd put my trust in the maker with some years under his belt and some knives in the field.
 
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