Fun on the way home last night

Hmmmm... interesting. I would file a complaint. However, I really wonder how this stop would have progressed if the plates had not been ... uhh... illegal?

Did he look at your CCW or id before he cuffed you? Is your id a picture ID? Here where I live, according to the daily news, there are a LOT of stolen cars, and a lot of people driving them that might just as soon shoot the officer as look at him. Yeah, the guy might be stupid to tell the officer that he had a permit and gun (well, actually, that would be very stupid here, since we don't have CCW
rolleyes.gif
), but I wouldn't put it past some of the "brain surgeons" I see on the nightly news.

It sounds like the guy ran the plates before he pulled you, and knew that the plates were not legal. That would automatically put him on guard. Then a gun is introduced into a "stolen car" scenario.I dunno, I can sorta see his side. But, it does sound like he went far enough to warrant a formal complaint.

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iktomi
 
I don't understand why people feel they have to change their behavior around cops because they're carrying legally. There's no need to turn on the dome light, glue your hands to the wheel, and hand over your CCW when you get pulled over, unless you're in a state that requires it. I'm not saying that you should exhibit a negative attitude towards cops when pulled over. I certainly don't. But I really have better things to do than worry about how difficult it is for him to do his job. If he wants to see my permit or my gun, he can ask for it. No one ever has.
 
satire follows...

gee Kris,

it's good you don't live in a POLICE STATE where you can be stopped on a public street for some petty thing, ordered out of your car, handcuffed and searched. Then have your legally owned property taken from you and generally let yourself be treated like a piece of s***. It's also good that you didn't get too huffy about the whole thing and FORCE the police officer to beat you senseless, or possibly waste State Money on ammunition to shoot you full of holes (It's a wallet.).

Yeah, it's a good thing. So the next time you send in your taxes, be sure and and write that police officer's badge number on your check.

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http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
The first rule of not getting harassed by police officers is to make sure your automobile is properly tagged, inspected, insured, and so forth.

The second rule is to be unfailingly honest when you are questioned -- but never, ever volunteer information for which the officer has not asked.

All in all, I think you should consider yourself lucky. You came out of the encounter with as many weapons as you went in, and your only tickets were for the tags. I'd be grateful our neverous little LEO didn't slap you with some weapons charges that would have really fouled things up.

I'm as rabid a civil libertarian as you're going to find, but giving cops a very visible excuse to pull you over will invariably lead to this sort of thing, justified or not...

Just my less-than-one-cent after taxes.

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

 
As a state prosecutor and former defense attorney, I can say the following:

1. Police have a horrible job and dangerous beyound compare for sudden acts of violence against them.

2. Police have an attitude that is upsetting to most law abiding citizens because they seem to be on a power trip. If they did not have this almighty power attitude, they could not do their job with the punks of the world.

3. Most police are not well trained. Let's face it, 6 week academy and then training hours once maybe twice a year is not enough.

4. Most police are over zealous when it comes to arrests, tickets or just plain harrassment.

5. Most police will comfront a law abiding citizen more forefully than they will a drug addict for this reason. The police officer can vent some steam on the law abider and make himself feel he is the "Man" because the law abider cowers to him.

6. Most lawyers I know dont want to mess with ticket cases and as such the harrassed citizen is left to his/her own devices and the police are rarely if ever challenged. When I was in defense work, I challenged tickets and stops and won much more than I lost. Most police are wimps when they are on the stand. I have them and treat them like they treated my client. They can not take it.

7. I have been stopped by several police officers over the years and I can tell you with a straight face, most of the stops were done simply because of the cars/trucks I drive. Once I was pulled over by a police officer, I was in my 4x4 with my cowboy hat and my rifles on the back window (now I dont have rifles on my back window period). I was also in my suit because I was going to jury trial that morning. The office stopped me and when I asked him why he stopped me he told me my left blinker was out. I found this strange so I put my left blinker on and stepped from my vehicle. It was working properly. I asked him to explain this and he couldn't but he did stutter alot. I told him that next time he should be more careful.

Well it seems that our police hero, was on his way to court too, because the State has subpoenaed him. And as fate would have it he was on my case. I should have recognized the name but I was so mad at the illegal stop that I could not think to put them together.

Needless to say, the police officer and I had a lovely four hour chat on the stand concerning police stops and proper proceedures. He even admitted on the stand that he stopped me that morning for a broken left blinker that was not broken.

--------------------------------------

File the formal complaint against the officer. Did he follow proceedure??? I dont know. But when an officer says he is doing something for YOUR protection, this is my interpretation.

First, the Constitution come into play with contact by the police. In order for the police to be able to violate the Constitution or other laws protecting the rights of the citizens, the officer has to come up with an excuse for the intrusiveness of the stop. And I assure you, that the safety of the suspect is always used by the police. It is a red herring as for as I am concerned, that this officer is attempting to gain evidence illegally and is trying to circumvent the law. When an officer claims he is doing something for the safety of the suspect, he usually miraculously finds evidence (drugs, weapons or the like) and then the officer will claim, he was not doing a search for weapons or drugs, but only searching to insure the safety of the poor helpless suspect that was handcuffed and could not defend himself.

Be careful in todays society, the police are not working for the law abiding citizens, they are working for the government.

I am sorry I was so long winded but this really upsets me.

God Bless you all

Judge Blackhawk



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Government's ability to
ABUSE and EXPLOIT is directly related to it's ability to DISARM it's LAW ABIDING citizens. - Judge Blackawk
 
I don't think the LEO's actions were too extreme. He pulled over a car with bad tags, the driver showed his CCW (as required under TN CCW law I believe)and acknowledged the presence of a weapon in the vehicle under the seat. Based on what was in the original post, it sounds like the officer was alone. Ask yourself whether you would as a solo officer want to be poking around under the seat of a car while an unrestrained individual had a clear shot at your back.

Furthermore, after the individual was cuffed the officer discovered 6 knives which reinforces his original decision to cuff and search before recovering the firearm.

From the officer's perspective it was a good night. He went home alive and unhurt. So did you. Your feelings and your sense of personal freedom were certainly affronted but from the LEO's viewpoint his actions were quite reasonable to ensure complete control of his environment and reduce any potential risk to his safety.
 
Perhaps the judge can comment again here since his comments were so valuable.

You see, I'm going to take a position that will upset a few people. I'm not a lawyer nor am I a judge. But, based on my highschool civics class, I'm going to assert that here in America, my personal dignity and freedom is actually more important than the officer feeling safe.

Unless I'm mistaken, the suspect (and we use the term "suspect", not the term "criminal" here) is assumed innocent until he's proven guilty. Proof will, of couse, ultimately have to come in a court, but even in the field the same principle applies. The officer should treat the _suspect_ as an upstanding, peaceful, law-abiding citizen until he either discovers some physical evidence to the contrary or until the suspect makes some action that indicates to the contrary. Lawfully carrying a handgun is not evidence to the contrary. Statistics overwhelmingly show that citizens who lawfully carry their guns do not use them to attack police officers. Lawfully carrying a legal knife (or two or three or even six) is not evidence to the contrary. Having one's auto registration out of order is not evidence of any violent intent. The citizen in this case has given the officer no reason to violate the citizen's freedom.

If the officer wanted to look in the car and felt uncomfortable looking in the car under the circumstances, the officer should have called for assistance.

When an officer is dealing with a peaceful citizen, the officer has to perform his job without violating the citizen's rights and freedoms. This may be uncomfortable, inconvenient, or less than expeditious from the officer's point of view, but it's the structure under which we require our police to work and it's what protects us from degrading into the proverbial police state. If a police offer is inconvenienced, made uncomfortable, or even put in danger by having to respect a citizen's dignity, rights, and freedoms, well, that is, as I understand it, "the American way."


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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
Chuck,

your post is one of the best, most intelligent posts I've ever seen on this forum. You summed things up perfectly. I don't think it should upset anyone who believes in freedom and liberty.

The thing that should upset people is what happened to Kris.

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http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
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[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
What an interesting day I've had with three pauses to consider this thread.

The first came when I went for groceries. As I pulled into the strip mall where the Albertson's is, I couldn't help but notice a police car with the full flashing-lights effect going. The officer was standing at the window of the car he'd blocked in. A routine traffic stop, I assumed, and went in for my groceries. As I came out some half-hour or so later, I noticed that all of tables outside the coffee shop where occupied and everyone was looking out in the same direction. I looked too and saw that the one officer I'd already forgotten about was still there and had been joined by several of his fellow officers. There were now three cars in full light-show mode (is it really necessary to have the lights on on all three cars?) and the officers were going through the suspect's car. I asked one of the people sitting there "What's going on?"

The first gentleman at the table responded something like "The cops pulled this punk out of this car, put him up against the car just like on TV, cuffed him, and locked him in the back of one of the squad cars. Now they're searching his car!" The second fellow added, "They've taken a bunch of stuff out too." And the lady at the table introjected, "Drugs, probably!"

Well, it really wan't my place, but I had to scold that woman right there. There's no reason to assume it's drugs. The whole thing could just be a misunderstanding.

The point is that a big crowd had gathered around to watch and those people were jumping to conclusions. People do that.

When people see police handcuff someone, they assume that that person is some sort of dangerous criminal.

Now, what if while our friend Kris here was standing beside the road in full public view with handcuffs on, a car drove by and the driver, attracted by the flashing lights, happened to glance over and see Kris in that condition? What if, a few days later, Kris finds himself being interviewed by that very man for a job? Do you think that what that man saw, Kris being handcuffed by the police, might influence his opinion about Kris and even his hiring decision?

The second thing that happened today that brought this thread to my mind was listening to Riders Radio Theater on the radio. Riders in the Sky cornered the evil vilian Slokum in the Sally B Diamond Mine. Too Slim, the Man of Many Hats, suggest that they could just throw a stick of dynamite in and that would collapse the mine and they'd finally be rid of Slokum for good. Ranger Doug, The Idol of American Youth, replied, "We could do that and nobody would be the wiser, but I belive that when you abrogate the rights of one man, you compromise the rights of all men. Blowing the mine and Slokum up would be the easy way... but it wouldn't be... The Cowboy Way!"

And the third reminder of this came while I was glancing at the Oregonian newpaper. Earlier this year, the Portland police department was shaken by a scandal involving many officers who had deliberately misentered timecards in order to collect overtime pay they did not deserve for hours they had not worked. The money came from a federal grant that the city had received to put more police officers on the streets. In fact, many officers conspired in this fraud. Now, anywhere I've ever worked, an hourly employee who deliberately and repeatedly submitted fraudulent time cards to get unearned pay, would be dismissed. But, because of their union, no Portland officer has been dismissed. The leader of the group was the most severely punished. He was demoted one whole rank. Now, he is suing the city for twenty-two million dollars claiming that he was improperly demoted. The police union is backing him. He says that the city defamed him. Well, if demoting him one rank for leading a consiracy that defrauded the city of upwards of a hundred thousand dollars is defaming, what do you think the officer does to a law-abiding citizen when he handcuffs that citizen in public during a minor trafic stop?

If police officers wonder why some of us worry about the potential for abuse, why they are not respected, maybe this sort of thing has something to do with it.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com


[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Approx. 0320 hrs 14 July 1996(my 4th anniversary as a LEO) I stopped a 20 yr old male and gave a verbal warning that his left tail light was out.I did not issue a ticket. The driver was very curteous thanked me for not giving him a ticket and began to pull away an arm came out the drivers window and fired a .38 round at me. Thank God it missed.After a high speed felony pusuit the individual rolled his vehicle and was arrested by a fellow officer. This is the short version. Anyway ,This is the "paronoid" mentality we LEO's have.I wonder why? What did I do to this person? I didn't even give him a ticket,like I was supposed too!!!

Now for anyone who's wondering why they spent time in handcuffs for a traffic stop I hope this kind of clears it up for you. For those who are going to say this doesn't happen to every LEO, you're right and MOST are trying to keep it that way.Yes there are those who shouldn't wear the uniform. We're not supermen we're just doing a superhuman job
biggrin.gif
I hear people say all the time I wouldn't have your sh**y job for $1,000,00 I do it for a whole lot less believe me. I'll bet for every person in this thread who bitch about LEO's ""abusing"" power wouldn't wait a second to dial 911 if they or their family needed the police.Let us get a little 911 adrenelin to protect ourselves and go home to OUR familys and you'll start hearing "well thats your job" I have a challenge for the whiners,become an auxilary officer, do six months road time then come back to this post and see if you still feel the same as your original reply.
 
I haven't been stopped for speeding in many years. When I'm tempted to do so, I simply remind myself that driving 70 instead of 58 will get me to my destination 20 miles away about three and one-half minutes sooner. The fine in Oregon for 70 in a 55 is $250. My time is not worth $4229/hour.

I have been stopped a couple of times recently for equipment problems, brake lights out completely (turned out to be a broken brake light switch. Do you have any idea of what it takes to replace the brake light switch on an '89 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme? Don't get me started on those designers...) and once for having the cover on my rear license plate so dirty that you couldn't even tell if there was a plate under there or not.

In both cases, I promptly informed the officer that I am an Oregon CHL holder. In both cases, I happened to have a gun with me and I informed the officer of that too. In the later case, where my plate was totally obscured, I noticed the officer relax visibly when I told him that. In both cases, after discussing my problem with the officer (in neither case was I fined) I asked the officer "May I ask you a question?" In both cases the officer consented and I asked, "What do you think when you pull over a car and discover that the owner has a CHL?" In both cases, the officer replied something like, "I'm relieved because we just don't have trouble with CHL holders. When it's a CHL, it's aways an easy stop."

The second officer then asked me if he could ask me a question. I, of course, agreed. He then asked, "What kind of gun have you got?" I answered, "9mm H&K P7." He replied, "Wow. I've heard about those, but I've never seen one. Could I see it?" Well, of course I showed him my gun. We discussed it. He handed it back. And I went to the service station down the road to wash off my license plate cover.

I suspect that Kris either ran into a bad egg or simply caught the officer in a bad mood. But there should be no bad eggs running around with badges and guns. And a professional police officer should be able to control his bad mood. So, he should complain to the department and complain loudly.



------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
I'll bet for every person in this thread who bitch about LEO's ""abusing"" power wouldn't wait a second to dial 911 if they or their family needed the police. Bladerunner,

Sadly, in my town dialing 911 is almost pointless. By the time the police arrive the bad guys have already done whatever they wanted to do. It is a sad comment on the lack of pay and training that our local P.D. has. The town I lived in from the ages of 9-18 had a police force that would usually respond in 5 mins or less. I realize that in this city things are much more hectic than in my hometown, but, there seems to be a major lack of incentive for the cops.

Kris

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kwheeler3644@cs.com http://pub17.ezboard.com/bknfmnsforum
 
How anyone who enjoys personal freedoms could support this type of abuse is literaly beyond my scope of comprehension. The mere fact that Kris volunteered the information to the OffiCUR should have been sufficient proof he had no ill intent. The cop (IMHO)was (and proboably still is)an undertrained and undereducated liabilty to himself, his fellow officers, and his department, PERIOD.

I have close friends that are LEO's at the City, County, State, and even Federal level. So I have no axes to grind with professional LEO's. My son even graduated from college with a degree in Law Enforcement. But each time this happens, and is tolerated, it chips away at our personal rights (which are rapidly dwindling). Too many people are acting like sheep these days and I think our forefathers would puke if they saw how our country has allowed governemnt to decide what is safe, correct ,and for our own good.

File a complaint, as others have said, YOU probably won't see an action taken, but by allowing this to happen unreported, only encourages the behaviour to be repeated. With enough reports on his record, you may help someones wife or loved one keep from being victimized by this no balls Barney Fife.

 
Don't be a victim.


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KICK! ~

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
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