Fun on the way home last night

We should never expect the police to do for us, what we can do for ourselves. In my home town of 15,000 (26,000 county) we have 4 officers on a shift at any given one time. That is above average accordoing to my IACT book. The Indiana State Police have one (1)officer covering 3-4 counties and several hundred miles of State roads and highways on most shifts (sometimes no State Police are even patrolling in the AM hrs in our area).

RIGHT, call 9-1-1 and sit on your thumb waiting for assistance with a home envasion. The B/E would have time to kill you, rape your wife, eat dinner out of your fridge, rape your daughter, have dessert and drive away in the van he brought to haul your household goods away, before a LEO got here to Serve and Protect.

There is all too little serving and protecting going on. Every officer I know is a police officer for various other reasons than money. And EVERY ONE OF THEM have told me countles times to depend on myself for protection!! Many of them are serious type "T" personalities, and if it wasn't for being a police officer, they would be mountain climbers, jumping out of planes, or wrestling alligators, to get the adrenalane rush. The Barney Fife's with something to prove are usually culled out before they have an opportunity to cause much damage (or promoted out of contact with the public). Even their fellow officers are embarrased by their attitude and behaviour.

I'm with Don, there are a lot of good officers out there and I'm proud to know several and count them as my friends. I've had the opportunity to do ride alongs with all of them, and things aren't always as they appear folks!
 
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This is for your own safety, you have to be cuffed...

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[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
All,

Remember the scrawny kid in high school that all the other kids made fun of? You know, the kid that wanted so badly to be liked by the "cool kids," but just didn't fit in? Well, after a while, he got fed up. He said to himself "one day I'm gonna show them who's boss." Sure enough, he's now a badge-wearing, gun-toting LEO. He walks his beat or patrols his neighborhood with only one purpose in mind: showing people who's boss.

Now consider the other people you went to high school with. Think of the ones that would've made good cops. The honest, intelligent, hard-working kids that just oozed integrity and respect. What are they doing now? Well, chances are they're not cops. Chances are, with so many career options available to them, they thought that their value to society would be maximized elsewhere. With so many resources at their disposal, why waste their time badgering law-abiding citizens for driving with a broken tail-light? And if they were the type of people who thrived on the pride and satisfaction they got by helping others, they probably became doctors, social workers, or school teachers.

The lower ranks of law enforcement attract the lower ranks of citizens. This is an unfortunate fact, but one we need to accept. As long as a career in law enforcement means low wages, little respect, and high danger, the good people of society will find more effective ways to use their skills for the benefit of their families, their neighbors, and their fellow citizens.

When the Rolling Stones said that "every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners saints," they weren't too far from the truth. After all, why do people become cops? So they can get away with all the things they used to dream about - pushing people around and commanding respect not because they EARN it, but because they WIELD it.

A POLICEMAN'S BADGE IS NOT A LISCENSE, IT IS A RESPONSIBILITY.

The duty of a police officer is perhaps one of the noblest duties any citizen could endeavor to fulfill. Unfortunately, this duty is very rarely the underlying motive for those people with whom we entrust our safety to earn their badge.

All cops should be subject to the same level of scrutiny to which they subject us. If they assume ill intent of anyone, then we should do the same. To protect yourself, don't ever trust a cop, and always assume ill intent.
 
Now that is painting with a broad brush.
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[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
Don,

Yes, I did generalize a bit, and in so doing I am perhaps guilty of the very thing I so despise in others - profiling and prejudism. In response, let me apologize publicly for causing offense to any law enforcement officers who may have read my post. However, in my defense let me add that I am NOT prejudiced against any man or woman carrying a badge. Instead, I am offering a commentary on why we all too often hear anecdotes like the one posted above. The fact remains; law enforcement today does not always attract the caliber of men that it should. Whether this is a symptom of the society we live in, a poorly managed government, or basic human nature is a topic for another debate, and one I can only comment on based upon my personal experiences.

My response to Kris and others who have posted in this thread is this: an officer of the law, or any agent of a governing body, must earn the trust and respect of those he is bound to protect and serve, just as any citizen must earn the trust and respect of the LEO. No matter what kind of hat we wear, we are all just human beings underneath, and as such we are all subject to the same laws and the same code of ethics.

As long as there are criminals, there will be cops, and as long as there are cops, there will be some who break the very laws they are entrusted to uphold and enforce. My only advice is to treat cops the same as you would treat anybody else; with respect, dignity, and honesty, but if you ever grant them more trust than they've earned, you put yourself at risk of having that trust violated and used against you. In other words, don't withold information, and don't volunteer more information than that which is asked of you.

My regards to all,
Wulf

 
Sorry it took to long to get back. Well bad tags could be a stolen vehicle with switched tags "drive into his office then". Who knows who your talking to out there. I still stand the officer should be able to cuff a guy for Both persons safety, period. You had six knives and think that would not be a little weird to an officer? Is to me Sorry folks . Hey, believe it or not people lie to police all the time.

I forget the dead officers name but he was a Texas officer who was very laxed and "nice" when he encountered three individuals who wolf packed him and killed him stemming from a "simple car stop".
 
Hmmmmmmm..... Wolf packing isn't unique to criminals. Ever see the Rodney King video. Now that is a wolf pack out of control. And listen to the traffic on the L.A. Radio's while it was happening.

Regardless of what happened prior to the King stop, that kind of thing is unconscionable behavior from ANY professional LEO. There was absolutely no self control displayed. How many times has it happened when a citizen hasn't had a Video Camera rolling? Ever see the 20/20 report or other News Digest sting on police.

Is that what happened with Kris, No... But had he acted upset or been indignant, offered an excuse or resisted the unlawful act of false imprisonment by being cuffed, I wonder how far it would have escalated.

This is an undefendable action by a person not worthy to be called a professional Law Enforcement Police Officer.
 
So, if I walk out my door, I am "walking into the cops office"?

Wow, I don't like the sound of that. It's just a matter of time, like Don says, until we get pulled over at a check point and get searched for "weapons". A sad day for knife knuts everywhere.

Anybody read Feinstein's new gun control bill she's trying to pass? Don't worry, LEOs. You will soon be the only people allowed to carry weapons of any sort, seeing how every bill that restricts such has an exemption for federal, state, and local law enforcement types.

As far as 911 goes, that is a very good system, provided you require ambulance or fire department personnel.

Too many citizens in this country are willing to give up liberty to gain safety, unaware that this course of action will gain them neither liberty nor safety. Long bumpy ride ahead, folks.
 
I don't think walking out your door is any reason for a Police officer to stop you either. I did not state anything remote to that. Where did Fienstien come from? WOW .Handcuffing a person under under the circumstances is not an arrest either. There was no corruption involved . I just feel officer safety should be respected. Of course we can argue by example and it will solve nothing. I'm a card carring member of NRA if your wondering. I'm done.
 
My point, Mr. Castle, is that people are willing more and more to allow Government and Law Enforcement to take extreme measures "for safety". Go ahead and handcuff everyone stopped, as long as it is for "safety". Set up road blocks and search vehicles at random, as long as it is "for safety's sake".

You can't carry an automatic knife, or a balisong in many states. Why? For public safety. My point was that when you give an inch, a mile is sure to follow, and at the end of that mile you will find fewer rights and civil liberties. And once taken, those liberties will NEVER be given back.

Where did Feinstein come from? California. The safest state in the union.
 
It did not appear that there was any "probable cause" to search the car, much less handcuff and detain a person for a non-moving violation (tags). I would also file a complaint. I doubt this is standard practice in your area, just one lousy cop.

Twice I've been in traffic situations where I've told the cop I was armed and showed them my CWP (once with about six guns in the backseat coming from the gun range) both times they just said "okay, thanks for letting me know" and went on with the incident at hand. This is how it should be unless you give them some reason to expect criminal intent. Having a concealed weapon permit is NOT criminal!!
 
I always like to point out that Ms. Feinstein is one of California's elite CHL holders herself.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

Nothing like throwing a few gallons of gas on the camp fire, eh?


[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
K,
I think the mistake was yours for volunteering your CCW and the info that you had a firearm in the car. I would not do that unless my State law required me to do. The Police officer didn't know you and hell CCW's might be able to be copied like other forms of ID have been. He was being cautious.
 
The more I think about this, the more I think Kris should do more than file a complaint. He should find a lawyer (there's that guy who has the huge practice in Nashville even though he can't enter the state of Tennessee because there's a warrent for him on some sort of rape charge or something. I wish I could remember the name of that firm. They advertise on TV all the time though, so Kris knows the one I'm talking about. That firm will take anything... and win.) Kris should get a pit bull lawyer and sue Metro for defamation of character and for the mental suffering that he endured when that officer publically humiliated him by handcuffing him in public without a justifiable reason. Kris, my guess is an out-of-court settlement for $100,000. You might end up pocketing about $25,000 of it (not a bad pay rate for the time you spent cuffed), and the deparment will then have to review its policies about handcuffing peaceful citizens and maybe give the officers some training on the matter.

So, Kris, give that law firm a call and file that suit.



------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
I must have not been to clear when I mentioned the "calling 911" above. By NO means am I sayiny dial 911 then wait.What I said is I dont think anyone would hesitate to call. As far as quality of officers go believe it or not everyone in this thread can sit on a hiring board for police.Yes you will get a run around but there is a position for one to two members of the community on every board.Do *******s get through?YES!! How can anyone 100% make sure they won't? If someone can give me a foolproof way that will work even in just my dept.I promise to use it.
Yes there are those who are there putting in their "20" or just for the check,or the power ,believe me I would like to see them gone. Too many good officers get passed over so quotas can be met in hiring and promotion practices.I am in no way sticking up for hoodlums with badges.As far as telling an officer you have a weapon in the car that is your choice,if they don't ask.
For the person who started this thread if you feel like an injustice has been done to you RUN, DON"T WALK to your local police and let them know you want to make a complaint with internal affairs. Most departments would rather work short of people(shorter than they already are)than to be fully manned with jackbooted thugs.
I can only speak for myself,I am proud to be law enforcement,I will remain law enforcement until either I am no longer physically able or until they put me to pasture.Regardless of low pay long hours,blah,blah,etc. etc. As I have always done I will continue to be the best officer I can be.I WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO RETURN ME TO MY FAMILY AT THE END OF MY TOUR.
 
Sorry to Josh and others who posted about things I have stated. I just felt the need to remove the posts and add little picture lessons for the learning impaired.

Apparently, some think that America is a place where this sort of activity should not only be condoned but promoted.

This is not Cuba...oh, but they sent the Boy back there to be a slave, public opinion you know, I can see now how that happened.

What an appropriate day to go back and free myself from the handcuffs I placed on myself with my keyboard.

You just cannot reason with some folks.

I asked over and over why it was a necessity to handcuff a man who had every opportunity to shoot the officer on the officer's initial approach, not a taker on that one.

I asked over and over again why it was a necessity to handcuff the man after he showed them a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

"What we've got here is...failure to communicate. Some men, you just can't reach... Then you get what we had here the other day which is...the way he wants it. I don't like this, any more than you men."

~From "Coolhand Luke."

As you watch the fireworks tonight and on the drive home you wonder, what a different place this Home of Our's called America...may have been had the British won our little 11 year war we fought.

Then...facing the stark reality that we are less than a decade of attitude, public opinion and legislation...away...from being Britain...enjoy the freedom you think you possess...for it is but an illusion, a fleeting glimpse of a reality you only think you understand.

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
Don,
Once you mention the word gun or that you have a gun people will freak. Drivers licenses being forged differ because it doesnt have to do with the G-word. BTW, when I go into my local police department for something, or any police department, I am usually armed, I would never volunteer the info cause it is not necessary. I have the right to carry concealed and the fact that I can legally hide my gun, means that I can also legally hide the fact that the gun is on my person to a police officer or anyone unless a legal statute states otherwise.
 
Well I run the risk of another written rant of abuse by Mr.Rearic .

In my uneducated opinion I would say being handcuffed is being detained and not arrested.You are under arrest when you are read your miranda rights.I may be wrong as stated im just a ignorant highschool dropout.

Every time a LEO responds to a call its Different...YES in Kris's case he was totally honest with the officer who pulled him over. Things could have been handled several ways..I would feel sure in saying that when the officer pulled Kris over for his plates not matching his guard went up..When he approached the car and Kris stated he had a weapon and a permit to carry it,the officer didnt go::FACT: not one single permitholder has ever shot or even shot at a cop. Im safe::.No he said **** this guys got a weapon, his tags dont match and ive got no backup close..hes been honest so far but im gonna detain him just in case..Doesn't seem unjust to me.Im not gonna sue and possibly cause this officer to lose his job just because my pride or ego took a hit from having to sit in the back of a squad car.

Again..As I stated in a eariler post..KRIS..IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED UNJUSTLY THEN PLEASE ISSUE A COMPLAINT. FOLLOW UP ON THAT COMPLAINT AND MAKE SURE YOU GET THE ANSWERS YOU DESERVE.

When I read about a situation like this I try consider how both people would feel..It's just something my momma always told me..

 
when the officer pulled Kris over for his plates not matching his guard went up..
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Fine, be on guard. I do it all the time. But, if I don't like the looks of the guy standing behind me in the movie line, I can't just turn around and handcuff him so that I'll feel safer. If the officer wants to be on guard, he can do that. I would encourage him to do that. But, he has to do that within the limits of respecting a peaceful citizen's rights, freedom, and dignity.

When an officer is dealing with a peaceful citizen, the officer has to perform his job without violating the citizen's rights and freedoms. This may be uncomfortable, inconvenient, or less than expeditious from the officer's point of view, but it's the structure under which we require our police to work and it's what protects us from degrading into the proverbial police state. If a police offer is inconvenienced, made uncomfortable, or even put in danger by having to respect a citizen's dignity, rights, and freedoms, well, that is, as I understand it, "the American way."
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*

I'll bet that had Kris been a 95 year old grandma in a string of pearls and a little pillbox hat taking her '56 Buick out of a spin having forgotten to renew the tags... several years ago, the officer would have handled the situation a lot differently. But, as we found out in a thread here a few weeks ago, even grandma hand have a CHL and a pistol in that embroidered purse. No, this officer just didn't like the way Kris looked. It's a case of profiling.

Now, I understand that officers are gonna use profiles despite every court order and every policy not to. Whether you call it profiling or just "instinct" or "gut feel", we all do it. You could also call it "human nature." If the person standing in line behind me at the movies was a 95 year old grandmother with the pearls, the pillbox hat, and the little embroidered purse, I'd probably be less nervious too. An officer may put his guard up, but he still has to treat every peaceful citizen with dignity and respect.

The idea of handcuffing a person in front of that person's child is especially disturbing. A typical child has seen hundreds of people handcuffed... On TV. On TV, especially the "family-oriented" sort of TV that most parents confine young children to, only the bad guys get handcuffed. To see their own beloved daddy handcuffed and searched, etc., treated like a bad guy, could be quite traumatic for a child. In fact, it could take millions of dollars worth of expensive therapy, trips to Disneyland, a lot of that sort of quality time that a parent can only spend with a child when the parent is independently wealthy...

I'm serious here, Kris. The more we've discussed this the more indefensible the officer's actions have become. He humiliated and degraded you in public, treated you like a hardened criminal when all you'd done is neglected a bit of DMV paperwork. I urge you to you get a tenacious, pit bull lawyer and sue Nashville and Metro Davidson County. Do in not just for yourself, but do it for every peaceful, law-abiding citizen of Nashville and the surrounding communities. A nice big law suit will force the police department to seriously consider these issues themselves.

You can get one of those "no fee" lawyers. Sure, you'll get very little of any award, but you've got to do it for the good of your fellow citizens, not just for your own reward. You might think this is a pretty weak case and that a lawyer is gonna shy away from it. But, it's the sort of thing that cities settle out of court all the time with very little effort out of your lawyer. So, I'll bet you won't actually have to much trouble finding a lawyer.

You may also want to write the ACLU. This is just the sort of thing they often take up.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

* "Next to the originator of a good sentence is the first quoter of it", Ralph Waldo Emerson. So, if you quote yourself, you're both #1 and #2.

[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 07-04-2000).]
 
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