Functional knives?

Jerry,

Thanks for your comments. I don't want to side track the thread, but I have to ask a question or two regarding your commment about a MS asking a prospective JS to forge a blade to shape.

It takes me a couple of weeks, an hour here and two there to forge a blade at proper temperatures (not sure what percentage of final shape it is when I'm done). If I was asked by my testing Master to forge a blade, would I be allowed to raise the temps of the steel so that I could get it forged in a couple of hours? Or would I be allowed to use a smaller stock than I currently use (1" round 5160). But then, the forging temps are critical to a blades performance, so would I be asked to demonstrate that also? I want to make sure I'm fully prepared when I eventually test. Maybe you could share what you have asked prospective JS's to do during their testing with you.
Thanks,
Rick
 
Rick

The ABS was formed to promote and teach the art of the forged blade. To my knowledge, that charter has not been changed.

In the testing process for status as a journeyman or master smith, the superviseing master smith must be convinced that the applicant has the ability to produce a forged blade. If He/She has never observed the applicants work either directly or indirectly, then the requirement to forge a blade may well be included as part of the test. After all, that Master Smith is certifying to the ABS board of directors, that the applicant can and did forge his/her test blade to its final shape.
Is that to say that it must be forged to 95% shape? Few smiths can forge that close. What it does say, is that in the experience of the ABS over that past 26 years, the closer the blade is forged to its final shape, the better it will perform.
This is no "picked out of thin air" theory, Hundreds of ABS bladesmiths, and also many non-ABS bladesmiths, over the past quarter of a century have shown this to be solid fact, "Carved in stone"
The idea that getting the steel hot, smacking it a few times on each side and grinding it to shape has never, to my knowlege, been acceptable as a truely forged blade.
So as not to get anyones undies in a wad, I DID NOT SAY THAT THE ABOVE BLADE IS A BAD ONE, only that the blade forged to final shape has proven, over time, to be a better one.

The ABS board of directors includes a high percentage of experienced knife collectors. This is no accident, they know knives as well, and in some cases, better than the makers.

We who make knives dance to the tune of the collector, or we dance alone

:)
 
Brett and Pete,

I'm a collector, not a maker, so I haven't made any knives at all. What I know has come from reading books, message boards and websites on the internet, conversations with collectors and makers, and shop visits.

I don't doubt that forging plays a major role in the performance of a blade. If the closer to shape you forge the better your blade will perform, at what point does any more forging add just a fraction of a percent in performance? At some point you may just be saving time at the grinder and not gaining much in terms of performance. Based on the stats that have been posted, if you start out with larger stock and forge it down to an approximate shape, you're getting 28 times more reduction in steel. Could that make more of a difference than forging less but closer to shape? There are many variables involved in making a knife and some might make a difference in how close to shape you need to forge to gain the same benefits.

If possible, I'd like to hear some opinions on different heat treating methods. Do some require that a blade be thicker, or thinner, in order to work properly?

I never got the impression that you were bashing stock removal makers, but maybe taking the grinding process for granted a bit. I think it can be an art form in and of itself, that requires just as much skill. Again, I admit I may be wrong, but I think that your skill at forging/HT will determine how precisely you can control the properties of the steel you're working with but it's your skill at shaping the blade that's going determine it's efficiency. As much of an art form as forging a blade exactly to shape is, in terms of pure function, it's the properties of the steel and the edge geometry that are going to make the difference, regardless of how much time you spent grinding the blade.

If you're going to the Blade show this year, I'll be at table 25T, stop by and I'll buy you a drink...:D
 
Now that we have some empirical information on reduction by forging ratio's let me ask the question:
In order to be considered 'forged to shape' is there any requirement that the blade have a foged drop-ped edge?
 
Rick
Ole Pete said most of it. The testing master needs to satisfy himself and be able to acknowledge to the board that the testing smith has the ability to forge a blade properly. There fore he can let him forge as he wishes, or as time permitts and questions can be asked to cover what ground time will not premitt by acutal forging.
This really is a benefit to us all to make sure the smiths are on a certain level or above. Some masters will have different ideals at times but the end results should get us all there on a certain level. Once you are at that level it is up to you if you wish to go on or not. Getting your MS stamp for instance is about the same as getting your college degree. You have the degree, now get out to work and put it in practice and get better. This is my opionion.
jf
 
Jerry,

Good post, I agree. The MS stamp only reflects the work that you've done, or were capable of, at a specific point in time. Hopefully you will retain a passion for knifemaking and continue to learn and get better. IMO, the proof is in the maker's work. I think it's important that he strive to make every knife better than his last.

-Jose
 
Jose
My post above made the assumption every knife was properly ground, heat treated and finished.
Poorly done work will turn out a POS be it stock removal or forged.

Bailey Bradshaws post about the structural alignment during the forgeing process is what seems to make the difference on forgeing close to final shape.

Ed's work on 52100 is well known. How he goes about getting it down to his likeing, seems to work well for him. Ray Kirk makes a mean cutting knife out of 52100 and only starts with 1 1/2 round stock.
Ray passed his Journeyman test at my shop 3 years ago with a 52100 blade (3 master smiths were there). As far as I know Ray's cutting competition knives have never failed. 52100 is an unforgiveing steel, If done properly it is outstanding, but can bite the maker in the backside if he is not on his toes.


Ed
You are NOT a smack it a few times one each side kind of guy. Hope you didn't take it that way.(I had the Barrel Killer in my minds eye when I said that).

As to the drop choil, some knives need it to look good and some don't.
A drop choil on your knives would look out of place.

:)
 
Thanks Jerry and Ole Pete for your replies. Very informative. My biggest problem in life is that I have a tendency to read between the lines, sometimes even when there are no lines to read between:D .

The question or comment that I have now is this...

Once I can consistently forge a blade that will pass the ABS's perormance tests based on my own preferences and philosophies of forging. It seems like I had better find a Master Smith that practices similar techniques or at least has a very open mind incase I'm asked to forge a blade for him/her. It sounds like a lot of latitude has been left to the judging Master Smith to determine whether or not someone would pass or fail a forging demonstration.:confused:

Jerry - What would you/the ABS be looking for from a prospective JS if you asked him/her to forge a blade for you? Would you be looking for the dropped edge or "heal" to be forged in or would you want to see the applicant forge a similar knife to the one he tested with? How closely to shape does the ABS expect it's members to forge to? Do they expect the blade bevels to be forged in along with the distal taper and profile? Or, could an applicant get by with just forging the distal taper and profile and grinding in the blade bevels as long as it passes the performance test?

I totally agree in the "college degree" analogy. IMHO, the smith's rating is really nothing more than a stepping stone in what is hopefully a much longer journey. It's up to us to continue to search for improvement or be left behind by those of us that do.

Thank you for your comments and insight.

Rick
 
Rick
You dont want to be a weannie. You want to pick out the roughest toughest ugliest MS you can and then do all he asks. That way you can walk away with your head held high. There is some latitude but in the whole picture there are guild lines for him to go with that he cannot deviate from the minimum requirements.
For instance when I tested John Fitch. There was also Roger Massey present as a witness. After John cut his rope and two by fours, I wispered to Roger that please witness that he did the required cutting. John did not know this of course. I told John that since he was so big, he would have to cut 12 two by fours and 12 pieces of rope before he would pass and must go through knots on each board. You could not have drove a nail up Johns butt, but he did it. The knife still shaved fine. Now, I was messing with John but he did not know that. It was not till that time that John really tested his knives. After that test John held his head high, and should have, and really got out there on his own testing to see just how far they would go. That makes a guy worthy of his stamp. I was not doing that to be mean, well, maybe a little out of fun, but I also knew that if the knife was done right it would be fine. John just was not sure at that time. If I found out a guy was shopping around I would make it as hard on him as possible. Why is he shopping around I would ask myself? Is he unsure? This is my personal thoughts. Not ABS thoughts or guidelines. If he is unsure then I will help him learn. I owe that to him and the craft to help him learn and discover what little I can.

In my shop I ask them to forge the style of knife they brung with them. That way I will know if he forged it or not. Personally, I want it forged to shape, but, if he brings in one without a dropped choil. Fine by me, no problem. Just be able to forge that to shape. And it needs to look like a knife when he is finished forging. I forged a couple of them to shape without a choil, it does take a bit of time but you can do it without a problem. So just be able to forge what the master asks. Guys do it all time. If you forge well, it is not a problem. Good luck at it and hang in there. This forum is a good place to learn as there are so many guys that can give you good pointers. I lurk a lot and also learn a lot here. And while you are learning to forge be sure and keep with with posts
jf on learning the business end of the knife business folks like Les Robinson can save you a lot of grief down the road.
 
Ed,

I'm still not too clear on the subject. I guess technically you'd have to have the bevels and everything forged in for it to qualify as forged to shape. My question is this, if you start out with larger stock and forge it down into the shape of a blade, without the bevels, how much control do you lose over the steel. Given more time to forge the steel down to shape, is it still possible to align and refine the grain, or are all the benefits gained when the bevels are forged in?

Pete,

Thanks for the reply. I took it for granted that everything be done properly as well. They say there's more than one way to skin a cat and I'm sure that applies to knives as well. Although some ways will undoubtedly produce better results, depending on what qualities you're looking for. Saying that the closer to shape you forge the better seems like a bold statement to me. Are there no exceptions to that rule? Wether it's the type of steel, or the forging or HT procedure, or any other variable? Although that may be the case if you're looking at it from an artistic perspective. With my limited knowledge, it just doesn't seem right that unless you forge in your bevels you're a stock removal maker, even if you forge your own blades.

Jerry,

That's hilarious, you've got a lot of cojones messing with a guy that big...:D

-Jose
 
With my limited knowledge, it just doesn't seem right that unless you forge in your bevels you're a stock removal maker, even if you forge your own blades.
Click to expand...

Forging a blade includes forging the bevels. At least that was the way I was taught by a few Mastersmiths and also at the ABS/Texarkana College School of Bladesmithing. The class was also taught by ABS Mastersmiths.

Brett
 
Jose,
naw, I was not talking about him personally. Just about any smith, when they are talking to their collectors later and if the collector asks who he tested under etc, it always looks good to have a mean ugly tester. We got lots of ugly ones.
Sometimes it might not make a differnce and sometimes it might. There has been a lot of testing smiths have Moran test them,again cause it looks good. And it does.
In a related theme, if you have not seen the thread on testing you ought to read it. It is funny to read about it but scarey as crap when you are the testing smith. Man, I still remember when I went for mine.
 
Brett,

Yes, but to what end, for art or function?

Jerry,

I don't think I've read that thread, but I'll search for it. You wrote earlier that the key is testing and I agree 100%. Even if you're happy with the level of performance you've reached, if you're serious about it and continue to test and alter your methods, it can only help.

-Jose
 
Jose

When I spoke of forged to shape, that includes the overall profile, the bevels,(Saber,flat,convex,hollow, and clip if it has one), Taper from ricaso to tip, and the tang. (Annealing, as stated by Ed and Bailey, is also part of this process)

What Ed does with mass reduction is prior to this step. You will note that when the mass has been reduced, He takes the steel himself and forges it to shape, basically the same as any other smith would do.

The selection of steel, proper grinding, edge geometry, heat treat,
finish, and final sharpening all play a part in how well the knife performs, be it forged or not.

Hope this clears things up a bit

:)
 
Trying to answer the before questions and thoughts:
Forge the bevels: What for? Art or function?
I fully realize that many smiths do not have the capability to work down large stock. There for they need to work the steel as much as the can, in this case forging the bevels may be of benefit.
Worknig down 5 1/2 inch round stock results in approximately 19,000% reduction by thermal mechanical process. If the forging is all done exactly right, great benefit can follow. All hammer blows are to the sides of the blade and what will be the cutting edge from 3 x 3 billet to final shape of blade. This results in grain size of about 6 in the spine and 10 at the cutting edge before heat treat. Indications are that this can be improved with further thermal maniplulation ( new experiments).

After this amount of reduction I do not forge the bevels, they are close to final shape, but I seriously doubt that one would realize a significant benefit by the final 1/16 inch reduction. One benefit I feel results in better blades (our steel and methods) is the ability to clean the steel (by grinding 1/32 inch off each side) to abolute cleen steel before heat treat. If the bevels were forged, this would only complicate the future operations.

The edge immediately infront of the ricasso and at the tip need physical attributes that result in strength for power stuff. The tip also requires the ability to penetrate to get into your work with the strength to acomplish tuff stuff.

We have invested a great amount of time and finances thoroughly evaluating all aspects of the forged blade. Our thoughts are based on testing and understanding the nature of the blade resulting from the nature of the steel.

There are many forged blades that have developed with man's invlolvement in cut. The dropped edge is but one family of the forged blade, there are many others. The bladesmiths of India, Germany, and the Phillienes and many other outfits have all contributed to our heritage. All need to be considered when we seek to understand the forged blade.

I was very pleased to read that the ABS does not consider the dropped edge a requirement to the acceptable forged blade. I consider this as a positive attitude.
 
Hallo!
I've been reading this thread pretty closely. Would it be OK if I asked a quick question to Mr. Fisk? We met breifly at last June's bladesmithing class. I was the great big guy in overalls. You watched me forge a bit. And I showed you the knife that I passed ther JS performance test with. We only talked for a minute.

On an earlier post you told Rick Baum (Hi Rick!)to not be a weanie. You mentioned that he should pick out the toughest MS to do his testing. Is there different standard among the testing Mastersmith's?

Not trying to start anything here. Last June at the Blade school I was told that if I expected to earn my JS stamp that ..."you had better damn well include a Moran style fighting knife..." as one of my test blades. So I do get the idea that there is a lot more to getting a JS rating than creating a fine blade.

What's your thought?

Shane
 
Shane
Yea, I remember you. A mountain in overalls. You were forging well at the time also. Hope it is going well for you now with it.

Thats an interesting comment. No, to be honest and looking at it from the judges view point, I dont care what you show up with, design or style. It just has to be good for what you are bringing. In other words, make sure it is clean and designed well. The judges dont care if you bring anything Moran looking. It will not add a single point if you have one of them or not.

You are always better if you take 5 different styles of knives in the judging room. This way you can show off you versitility. If a maker shows up for his masters judging with all of one style you can pack up and go home before we look at them reguardless of style.

Reguarding the performance test itself, a few masters make it a bit harder than acuatlly called for, but for a reason. For instance if I test a good friend, I will make it harder than normal simply because I do not want it said that I was partial. And, I have failed several friends first time, but they came back and did good second time.
Now, again, when I say make it harder I dont mean really hard. Maybe an extra two by four. Like John Fitch, he acutally passed his 2 boards and that would have counted. I was just messing with him when I had him cut the other 10 boards. That is all a smith would do to make it harder. The test is set and cannot itself be diviated from.
HOpe this helps. Let me know if I need to clear up anything I said or not. And, No, I am sure Rick is not a weannie, I was referring to any testing smith. Test and retest.
jf
 
Jerry, are you calling me a weinie?!?! :eek: :p :p :p :eek:


:D :D Nick :D :D

*edited to add* For those of you wearing stiff pants, that was a big joke. Sorry if I got off topic.
 
Pete and Ed,

Thanks for the replies, your explanations do help. As far as the dropped edge is concerned, and also wether the edge is hardened up to the choil, or into the ricasso, and how that might effect the strength of the blade, I'm still giving it some thought. Ed, I remember the first feature that really caught my attention, when I bought my yearling, was the tip. It's the only thing I miss on my bowies, although they make up for it in other ways...:D

Jerry,

I took a look at the MS tests thread so I see what you mean. Didn't see your story there, any details? Who'd you test under?

-Jose
 
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