Ganzo 710 rip off BM Rift

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My question is what else is going on between US knifemakers and Chinese manufacturers?
I see HK knives made in China for BM/HK and sold at Big 5 for $49-$15 depending on the sale going on. One of these models has handle very close to an old BM model.
http://www.big5sportinggoods.com/st...-knife/0510134180011/_/A-5140827#.VhaqXvlVikq

Here is a knife made in China for Coast and it has that same "Rift" handle design.
https://coastportland.com/product/dx345/

Are US makers having products made in China and by way of that giving the Chinese factories their product designs?
I would like to know who Benchmade used in China to make their old/discontinued Red product line. Because elements of their product designs keep showing up in cheap knock offs.

BTW I will never buy a Ganzo/Enlan etc. because I would rather spend more money for an higher quality product with premium steel not "just any old stainless".
 
Well one thing's for sure. Chinese knife manufacturers aren't dumb. And their equipment is newer than ours is on average. So once they have a design in hand, it's not difficult for them to reproduce it convincingly. And therein lies the rub. It would make life a whole lot easier if all of the counterfeits, clones and knockoffs coming out of China were junk. Some of them are, of course, particularly the really cheap ones. But the more expensive ones are well-made regardless of how much some folks, most of whom have never seen them, would like you to believe otherwise. That leaves only one effective way to combat them, and that's by convincing people that it's wrong to buy knives from thieves. Sometimes that works. More often it doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
Clones and counterfeits exist in many different product lines. Fake watches, fake knives, fake clothing, jewelry, basically knock-off everything. Despite this, Brands like Rolex and Benchmade still seem to be going strong. The fact that I own the Ganzo 710 being discussed here has not stopped me from buying Benchmade knives. In fact, I am waiting for one to be delivered today.

It should be obvious that counterfeits, knock-offs, and clones can exist alongside genuine, original products, because they always have.
 
Yes. But that doesn't mean it's ethical to buy them . . . even the ones that are well-made.

Each person has to decide for themselves which side of the ethical divide they're on with respect to buying counterfeits, clones and knockoffs. Once someone has made their decision, however, it's difficult to get them to change their mind. What those who are opposed to counterfeits, clones and knockoffs call "excuses" for buying them, those who buy them call "reasons".
 
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In my opinion, morals and ethics, just like religion, are a very personal matter. And I don't believe that people should try to impose their own sense of morals and ethics on anyone. Nor should anyone be so quick to publicly judge or criticize the morals and ethics of another.

If someone screws you on a knife deal, then yeah, I think you have every right to publicly question their ethics. But to publicly question, criticize, or judge the ethics of someone because they choose to purchase a LEGAL product from a LAWFUL vendor is crossing the line in my opinion.

Who is so pure that they are in a position to pass such judgement? Of course some men will claim such purity, but any such claim should be met with serious skepticism.

If people don't want to buy a particular brand of knives, for whatever reason, then that's their choice, and I say more power to them. And if people want to try and discourage others from buying certain knives, then I think that's their right as well. And if people choose to buy a LEGAL product from a LAWFUL vendor, even if it's made in China, then I say that's their choice as well. And none will be judged by me.

On a related note, and at the risk of being repetitive, when it comes to the subject of "copies", I would suggest that people do a Google search and take a look at the Camillus model 886, the Schrade Bear Paw, the Utica folding hunter, and the Kershaw Wildcat, and tell me those aren't copies of the Buck 110. I don't know how to post pics off the internet, otherwise I would post them here. If those companies are guilty of copying the Buck 110, does that make it unethical to buy knives from those companies? And how about buying knives from the vendors who sell those knives, or those brands?
 
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They exist because consumers make it profitable to continue doing business that way. Just like drugs, if you buy they never go away. I don't have to be convinced and swayed on subjects like counterfeiting. You are either ethical or full of excuses, that's your business.
I'm fortunate not only to have had great parents mold me into the person I am, but naturally have common sense, ability to rationalize,integrity, ethics, honesty. I'm very fortunate how clearly I'm able to see life and the ramifications of my decisions.
 
killgar said:
In my opinion, morals and ethics, just like religion, are a very personal matter. And I don't believe that people should try to impose their own sense of morals and ethics on anyone. Nor should anyone be so quick to publicly judge or criticize the morals and ethics of another.
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The powers that be in this community have made their thoughts on knock offs quite clear and they do not agree with you. There a rules regarding the discussing and propagation of these counterfeits.

And as for your open support of such knock offs: "Oh, and I also currently own 4 Ganzo knives. And I plan on buying more. " (taken from this post: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...o-G704-amp-Ganzo-G712?p=15278494#post15278494), I find it ironic. You are some what of an ambassador of sorts to new folks with your "we were all new here once" sticky yet you offer some of the very worst advice on a very important issue in our hobby and on this forum.

So, now I am am speaking directly to you. You have made a very long post legitimizing your reasons for supporting knock offs. Congratulations. Your support of rip offs hurts the knife industry, the knife hobby, and this forum. So go ahead, make another long post trying to wiggle your way out of the facts here, but most likely it will just be more legitimization of your support of theft. I won't be responding to you further.
 
Some people really cannot wrap their heads around the principle of intellectual property.

I know of one other forum that for several reasons has "banned" the discussion and posting of content related to sub par products that happen to originate from a certain country, though not exclusively. It seems to be for the better of that forum, I don't know why sticking our heads in the sand on these knives would hurt anything.

Copycats, counterfeiters, and other ilk of their kind do not run proper businesses. They thrive on word of mouth, and free exposure. The same way the silk road functioned for how ever many years. Some exchange student that worked an internship with a major drug manufacturer sent the stolen formula home to government agents, who then started a government run lab to manufacture the drug and then sell it cheaper than the patent holder online. These knife makers work the same way. Denying them any exposure on "the largest knife forum" (?) makes obvious sense to me.
 
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craytab said:
The powers that be in this community have made their thoughts on knock offs quite clear and they do not agree with you. There a rules regarding the discussing and propagation of these counterfeits.
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There's a big difference between a "copy" and a "counterfeit". A "copy" is one knife that looks like another, with similar design features. A "counterfeit" is a copy that is advertised and sold as the real thing. Counterfeiting is fraud, a crime, and nowhere have I supported counterfeits. In fact I have spoken out against them on this forum and said that those responsible should be severely punished. "Copying" a knife design is not a crime. And if there are no patent infringements, then I don't see the problem in making one knife in the same shape, with the same lock, as another knife.

As far as "the powers that be", I've never seen them close a thread merely because "copies" or Ganzo knives were discussed. And there is no posted rule on this forum that says "copies" cannot be discussed. Furthermore, a Moderator has participated in this thread, and has not seen fit to close it down.

So, now I am am speaking directly to you. You have made a very long post legitimizing your reasons for supporting knock offs. Congratulations. Your support of rip offs hurts the knife industry, the knife hobby, and this forum. So go ahead, make another long post trying to wiggle your way out of the facts here, but most likely it will just be more legitimization of your support of theft. I won't be responding to you further.
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If you truly believe that I am hurting this forum, and if you hold firm to your principles, then by all means you should appeal to the Moderators to have me banned. I would certainly do the same if I believed that a member was truly hurting this forum. We'll see what happens.
 
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So I was just browsing Onestopknifeshop.com, the online knife store owned and operated by the owner of Bladeforums. And I noticed that they sell the Boker model 01SC002, which is Bokers copy of the Buck 110.

I also noticed that they sell United Cutlery knives. United Cutlery copies several of Cold Steels knives. One that comes to mind is the United Honshu Fighter model UC2630, which is clearly a copy of the Cold Steel Tai Pan. Onestopknifeshop.com sells the United Honshu Fighter for $37.84 (they sell the Cold Steel Tai Pan for $312.)

So, if you believe that "copies" hurt the knife industry, the knife hobby, and this forum, does that mean you will boycott Onestopknifeshop.com? Will you boycott this forum as well since the owner is selling a copied knife design? I certainly hope not. I think that would be silly.

Personally, I fully support Spark and his knife business. He's conducting a lawful business, and selling legal products. More power to him. I'm happy to mention his store. Unfortunately he didn't have the knife I was looking for, so I have to shop elsewhere.

Something tells me "the powers that be" here at Bladeforums aren't going to be banning any discussion of knife "copies" on this forum, or the companies that make them, or the vendors who sell them. Just call it a hunch.
 
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Sosa said:
I challenge someone to live on Chinese canned goods for a year.
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Why on earth would anyone choose to live on canned food for a year? I wouldn't want to, no matter where the food was canned, not if I had a choice. That would get old really quick, so fortunately for me, I have a choice. I prefer fresh foods.
 
ron_m80 said:
I know of one other forum that for several reasons has "banned" the discussion and posting of content related to sub par products that happen to originate from a certain country, though not exclusively.
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Interesting. Are objective criteria used in the other forum to determine what constitutes a sub par product? If so, who establishes the criteria and what do they consist of? Or are all products automatically deemed to be sub par if they happen to originate from a certain country, though not exclusively, and they're made by copycats, counterfeiters and other ilk of their kind? Is it possible for a product to fall into that category and not be sub par? Or is a discussion of that possibility even allowable on the other forum? If it isn't, I'm glad I'm not a participating member of that forum. Censorship and racial bias, exclusive or otherwise, just aren't my thing.

Hatas gonna Hate!
-- HPIC
 
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TOMBSTONE said:
but naturally have common sense, ability to rationalize,integrity, ethics, honesty. I'm very fortunate how clearly I'm able to see life and the ramifications of my decisions.
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just an observation.....
most people feel that way about themselves and their decisions.
there is no single view of "life" that you can see and others cannot. every choice we make is the result of comparing the ramifications of choice A and choice B, granted some people dont put as much thought into it as others..... but i feel it is incorrect to say that people who make a different choice then you dont have "common sense, ability to rationalize,integrity, ethics, honesty." or the "ability to life and the the ramifications of my decisions"
they simply came up with different answers to the same question.

please dont take any of this as disrespect, i am fully against buying knock offs. I just felt what you said in your post would make a good discussion into how we view the choices others make and how we form opinions based on our assumptions about the reasons for their actions.
i understand the conclusion you came to and agree with parts of it i just think its important to consider these issues when forming an opinion about another person (in every aspect of life)
sorry if that was a tad off topic, things like this really interest me and i feel the world would be a far better place if we spent more time thinking about how a person got to a point instead of judging them for it.
 
I'm planning on buying a knife from Schrade, so I was browsing their selection on Knifecenter.com. And as I was browsing I couldn't help but notice some strong similarities between several Schrade knives, and several Chris Reeve knives.

For example, the Schrade SCHF3 Extreme Survival fixed-blade looks an awful lot like the Chris Reeve Pacific. They look like twins. Especially the serrated version of the SCHF3.

Schrade also produces a line of hollow-handled fixed-blades ground from a solid bar of steel (also part of their Extreme Survival line). They look an awful lot like the line of hollow-handled fixed-blades ground from a solid bar of steel that were once produced by Chris Reeve.

And then there are the TWO Buck 110 copies that Schrade makes, the "Cave Bear", and the "Bear Paw" (also known as the LB7).

So I'm curious to hear peoples thoughts, not that it will affect my decision, but I'm still interested. Do you think it's unethical to buy knives from Schrade? Do you think it's unethical to buy knives from the vendors who sell these knives, or the Schrade brand? From what I've seen, there are quite a few vendors selling the Schrade brand. I'll bet some of them are even paid sponsors of this forum.

I wonder what happened to the OP. I'd like to hear his thoughts on all this.
 
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Sosa said:
Schrade was liquidated a long time ago.
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The Schrade brand and models are still being made (owned now by Taylor Brands). And those knives are widely available from US vendors.

But if I understood the OP, this thread is about the ethics of buying copies. Not who actually owns the company that makes the copies (Taylor Brands is headquartered in Tennesee).
 
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killgar said:
But if I understood the OP, this thread is about the ethics of buying copies. Not who actually owns the company that makes the copies (Taylor Brands is headquartered in Tennesee).
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Well it's really about both. Can you separate a company from the products it makes? Some say yes. Some say no. If a company makes both original products and copied products, is it OK to buy their originals if you don't buy their copies? Some say yes. Some say no. Last but not least, if a company makes copies, is it OK to disparage the quality of those copies if you've never personally seen or handled them but you're serving a "greater good"? Some say yes. Some say no. So where do I draw the line?

There's enough of the skeptic in me that if you're going to disparage the quality of a counterfeit, copy or knockoff, you're going to have to prove it. Otherwise, we can argue the ethics and morals of doing business in them until we're red in the face and very little will change.
 
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