GEC 47 Viper: Brand New, Won't Take An Edge

[Zeta33]

I know you are upset, but let's watch the colorful expressions. Ladies are present.

Sorry, what expression? I don't believe there is any profanity present in this thread...unless you mean the reference to a fart? Is that not humorous in good taste? Apologies...

 

[Bladenoobie1]

Something is just not hitting right. There is next to no chance that one knife in a 1095 sheet stamping and treatment batch is bad; and there is no other talk of similar problems. Take it to a friend that also knows how to get a good edge and leave it with him. Don't tell him the problems, don't tell him what you've done, just ask him to put a good medium angle edge on it and see what happens. If he has the same problem, send it to GEC with a note asking them what is going wrong.

This is a great idea. Also Zeta I didn't say you were in your early days of sharpening nor implied it. I was just stating mistakes I used to make and completely overlooked them. It was my impression that GEC does heat treat in batches the reason why I was doubtful that there was something wrong with the steel and rather an error on the user end. I apologize if you were offended. I personally have never had a issue as you described the reason for me bringing up different possibilities. Anyhow sending your knife to your buddy with the WE is a good idea as the WE is a very consistent system that is minimally influenced any possible user end errors. Please give us an update after you send out the knife to see if it is indeed a heat treat issue.

 

[Chris Montgomery]

Why not just call or contact GEC? You seem to know what your doing. The edge you showed looked even and we'll honed. GEC puts out great quality and quit a few knives and even with the most careful processes things can still happen.

That being said is there anything else about the knife that gives you concern? Not that that one isn't the most important, it's got to be sharp. I am just saying that if the rest of the knife looks right and we'll finished it shows that they want to put out a quality product, which makes me believe that if there is a problem they would want to know.

Whatever you do please let us know the resolution.

Chris

 

[Zeta33]

This is a great idea. Also Zeta I didn't say you were in your early days of sharpening nor implied it. I was just stating mistakes I used to make and completely overlooked them. It was my impression that GEC does heat treat in batches the reason why I was doubtful that there was something wrong with the steel and rather an error on the user end. I apologize if you were offended. I personally have never had a issue as you described the reason for me bringing up different possibilities. Anyhow sending your knife to your buddy with the WE is a good idea as the WE is a very consistent system that is minimally influenced any possible user end errors. Please give us an update after you send out the knife to see if it is indeed a heat treat issue.

Okay, at the risk of ending up somewhere in the W&C area provided it takes on a super sharp edge, I will do just that. Sorry for misunderstanding you and thanks again for trying to help. And thanks to everyone else who has tried to help. This is a very good community at BF. I really would like to figure out what I'm doing wrong though. It puzzles me because in the past 3 weeks I've put ultra fine edges on both of my Sebenzas, a Sebenza I sold, my SAK Cadet, a Benchmade Presidio....All well beyond shaving sharp.

Why not just call or contact GEC? You seem to know what your doing. The edge you showed looked even and we'll honed. GEC puts out great quality and quit a few knives and even with the most careful processes things can still happen.

That being said is there anything else about the knife that gives you concern? Not that that one isn't the most important, it's got to be sharp. I am just saying that if the rest of the knife looks right and we'll finished it shows that they want to put out a quality product, which makes me believe that if there is a problem they would want to know.

Whatever you do please let us know the resolution.

Chris

The knife was absolutely gorgeous. Fit and finish was top notch, and I've known GEC to be a top quality manufacturer of knives both through owning them and countless positive reviews. I will contact GEC, only after my friend tries to put an edge on this. I wouldn't want to waste their time.

 

[Fish30114]

Zeta, it sure seems like you are being patient to the extreme, I like you line 'I bought a knife not a DIY knife kit' at this stage I would agree with Chris Montgomery and call GEC, as I said before I appears you have gotten a dud, I don't care what folks are saying about 'batch heat treated' or whatever, you obviously know how to sharpen a knife, and you are right, you shouldn't have to go to this extreme.

Let us know where you end up.

 

[Bladenoobie1]

I do admit coming across as a bit belittling and too doubtful so I am sorry for that. I wasn't following my own signature enough. I believe you are indeed a proficient sharpener and it is strange that you've gotten good results on all your other knives. 1095 is a easy steel to sharpen and wharncliff blades just require you to push forward with minimal to no hand/wrist movement. Perhaps the HT is bad, but you'll find out eventually.

 

[Zeta33]

Guys, I'm absolutely open to the idea that I'm doing something wrong. In fact, considering all this "batch treatment" talk, I'm close to certain there is user error involved. Maybe I just expect too much? Maybe I'm just a jerk?

But for anyone who still has doubts (not directed towards your Bladenoobie1) how sure are you that I can't sharpen a knife?

 

[Zeta33]

So...The knife stays with me, no wicked edge sharpening for this one...

I ended up getting it extremely sharp, actually while responding to this thread. I've figured out what the issue was, and it's not the heat treating or my inability to sharpen. It's how dull the knife actually was. I wasn't kidding when I said that it couldn't cut a piece of paper. The knife was simply dull. It was essentially edgeless when I got it and surprisingly thick where the edge sits. I guess many of you were right, but it doesn't change the fact that no knife should ever be that dull, brand new. Am I disappointed in the knife? Yes, because I had to modify it immediately after receiving. Do I like it in general? Absolutely, it feels great in the hand, and looks awesome. I got very frustrated having to try and sharpen it over and over again thinking "it couldn't possibly need to be thinner", and in doing so, left some bad sharpening marks. I have sanded the blade up to 1000 grit so far and will be pursuing a mirror polished blade to hide the damage done by sharpening too shallow and hitting the face of the blade. Thank you for all your suggestions, and for keeping me company while I "fixed" this knife...

P.S. I know the knife isn't pretty anymore, and I've lost a decent bit of steel. Hopefully mirroring the blade will successfully rid the finish of the scratches. It is currently scratchy all over from prepping towards a polished blade.

P.S.S. The edge is 34 degrees inclusive.

 

[liamstrain]

A shame that one got through QC. I've had some dull GEC's but not THAT dull. :/ But I'm glad you got it sharp! Enjoy. It's a great pattern.

 

[Bladenoobie1]

So...The knife stays with me, no wicked edge sharpening for this one...

I ended up getting it extremely sharp, actually while responding to this thread. I've figured out what the issue was, and it's not the heat treating or my inability to sharpen. It's how dull the knife actually was. I wasn't kidding when I said that it couldn't cut a hypothetical release of tail expelled gas, or a piece of paper. The knife was simply dull. It was essentially edgeless when I got it and surprisingly thick where the edge sits. I guess many of you were right, but it doesn't change the fact that no knife should ever be that dull, brand new. Am I disappointed in the knife? Yes, because I had to modify it immediately after receiving. Do I like it in general? Absolutely, it feels great in the hand, and looks awesome. I got very frustrated having to try and sharpen it over and over again thinking "it couldn't possibly need to be thinner", and in doing so, left some bad sharpening marks. I have sanded the blade up to 1000 grit so far and will be pursuing a mirror polished blade to hide the damage done by sharpening too shallow and hitting the face of the blade. Thank you for all your suggestions, and for keeping me company while I "fixed" this knife...


P.S. I know the knife isn't pretty anymore, and I've lost a decent bit of steel. Hopefully mirroring the blade will successfully rid the finish of the scratches. It is currently scratchy all over from prepping towards a polished blade.

Glad you got a resolve. GECs often come with dull apexes. When you reprofile you need to make sure the bevel is going down to the very edge until your new profile completely replaces the old one. That's why it didn't make sense when you said, "it feels like I'm close to getting a burr." You either get it or you don't. If you don't then you'll simply be refining a nice bevel with a dull apex. My go to reprofiling stone is a nubatama 150 grit waterstone. Cuts practically any steel. Only steel I had a little trouble with was s110v but still worked. On small slip joints I'll use a DMT coarse stone often. Sometimes it looks like you should be getting a burr or nearly there when really that old apex is still at the tip. Having good equipment makes this a breeze. My last reprofiling stone was a 500 grit stone. Took way too long for full jobs. I'm just saying this as a speculation--perhaps on all the other knives you've had no trouble sharpening you were refining/sharpening an already existing bevel and in this case the knife needed an entirely new bevel and you weren't used to cutting down an edge so much? Aside from your arkansas stones and sharpmaker what other equipment do you have? What brand is your diamond stone? My GEC viper came dull as a butter knife, but the edge was thin as with most all GECs. Took me maybe 5-10 minutes to set a new bevel on my coarse stone.

 

[Macchina]

This is a strange looking knife. Just to confirm: are you sharpening the flat edge or the curved one?

 

[Zeta33]

Glad you got a resolve. GECs often come with dull apexes. When you reprofile you need to make sure the bevel is going down to the very edge until your new profile completely replaces the old one. That's why it didn't make sense when you said, "it feels like I'm close to getting a burr." You either get it or you don't. If you don't then you'll simply be refining a nice bevel with a dull apex. My go to reprofiling stone is a nubatama 150 grit waterstone. Cuts practically any steel. Only steel I had a little trouble with was s110v but still worked. On small slip joints I'll use a DMT coarse stone often. Sometimes it looks like you should be getting a burr or nearly there when really that old apex is still at the tip. Having good equipment makes this a breeze. My last reprofiling stone was a 500 grit stone. Took way too long for full jobs. I'm just saying this as a speculation--perhaps on all the other knives you've had no trouble sharpening you were refining/sharpening an already existing bevel and in this case the knife needed an entirely new bevel and you weren't used to cutting down an edge so much? Aside from your arkansas stones and sharpmaker what other equipment do you have? What brand is your diamond stone? My GEC viper came dull as a butter knife, but the edge was thin as with most all GECs. Took me maybe 5-10 minutes to set a new bevel on my coarse stone.

To answer your equipment question: I have the Arkansas whetstones, coarse compound loaded strop, fine compound loaded strop, sand paper ranging from 100 grit to 5000 grit, micro abrasive cloths, rogue polishing compound for the micro cloths, Lansky diamond benchstones. I've been sharpening using more or less the same gear for 10 years now, so I've done my share of reprofiles. I think what made this particularly difficult was the fact that although both of our 47s came dull, mine was thick at the edge rather than thin like yours (which is very odd). I know about the burr either being there or not but what I was trying to say, and maybe not very clearly, was that each time I inspected it, it looked as though I was very close to raising the burr.

The knife I most recently reprofiled was a BM Presidio. I went completely through the initial bevel taking it camping several times and had to reprofile it entirely but it was much easier than this, for no reason other than my GEC 47 having an usually thick edge upon arrival (I can only assume anyway).

I didn't know GECs usually come dull. My last one, a 73, came quite sharp. Thanks for the info.

 

[liamstrain]

This is a strange looking knife. Just to confirm: are you sharpening the flat edge or the curved one?

Flat side.

 

[liamstrain]

I didn't know GECs usually come dull. My last one, a 73, came quite sharp. Thanks for the info.

I wouldn't say "usually" - but for me it's been about 3 out of 10 need a good sharpening before use.

 

[Bladenoobie1]

I've only owned 3 GECs so far. All of them came dull, but they were all very thin making it easy to sharpen.

 

[Sullie]

My 47 came with basically no edge as well. It was actually unbelievable how bad it was.
Great knife and no problems otherwise but I was frustrated with it too.
Glad you got it fixed up! Well done.

 

[Macchina]

What you describe is an incredibly frustrating experience, but usually only happens once.

I always use a marker when reprofiling. This is due to a very blunt knife I once spent a week on walking through the steps many times when I really needed to spend just a half hour on my coarse bench stone...

 

[Zeta33]

What you describe is an incredibly frustrating experience, but usually only happens once.

True. I was a bit of a fool. Had I not been so frustrated I might've seen the issue being as simple as it really was in the beginning. Hindsight, 20/20 and all that...

My 47 came with basically no edge as well. It was actually unbelievable how bad it was.
Great knife and no problems otherwise but I was frustrated with it too.
Glad you got it fixed up! Well done.

Interesting. This makes me wonder, maybe this is done on purpose to encourage the user to set up the edge their own way? Of the brands of knife I carry, GEC is my least familiar. I'd say my job was done poorly at best considering I scratched the blade but thanks for the encouragement regardless. Makes me feel a little less stupid about this, if only a little :thumbup:

 

[meako]

If at first you don't succeed Mr Wynt.
Try Try again , Mr Kidd.

 

[Bladenoobie1]

At least with what I use, even if the edge was thick it would take me 15 minutes TOPS to set a new bevel. If it's taking you guys hours you either need better equipment or better technique. It used to be both for me, but I greatly improved my technique and equipment with help from the fellas in the MTE subforum. I could see hours being possible if someone was trying to greatly thin and reprofile a thicker stock knife in a more wear resistant stainless like m390, but with 1095 it shouldn't take long. One of the reasons why I got into traditionals was the ease of sharpening. Some people go on about how sharpening is therapeutic and I can understand that to an extent. While I enjoy sharpening myself, if it goes on for hours it no longer becomes something relaxing but a hassle. I just received a old boker barlow that still had the factory edge intact, but was dull to where the edge was shining and you could rub your thumb over it fast with pressure and not get cut. Took about 20 minutes total sharpening and stropping combined to put a hair whittling edge.

A really good coarse stone that anyone can afford and does great work reprofiling (pretty much any steel) is the norton crystalon stone. I think its around $15, maybe less. It will do a superb job reprofiling most any knife and the silicon carbide cuts fast. Home depot usually has it, but there is a cheaper economy version that isn't as good quality. I personally do not like diamond stones much as I feel it doesn't give much feedback. Feedback is really important to me to tell me that my strokes are consistent. I started to use my arkansas stones a lot the past month since I've been getting more traditional knives. They work great as a finishing stone. They're smooth, feel good to use, and put a good edge. Only down side is that they cut slow so I would definitely not use them to reprofile anything unless it's minor work.

Found links from knifecenter:
http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/NO...on-Sharpening-Stone-8-inch-x-2-inch-x-12-inch
A smaller one can be purchased for less. A good bang for you buck.