GEC 47 Viper: Brand New, Won't Take An Edge

[Zeta33]

At least with what I use, even if the edge was thick it would take me 15 minutes TOPS to set a new bevel. If it's taking you guys hours you either need better equipment or better technique. It used to be both for me, but I greatly improved my technique and equipment with help from the fellas in the MTE subforum. I could see hours being possible if someone was trying to greatly thin and reprofile a thicker stock knife in a more wear resistant stainless like m390, but with 1095 it shouldn't take long. One of the reasons why I got into traditionals was the ease of sharpening. Some people go on about how sharpening is therapeutic and I can understand that to an extent. I enojy sharpening myself, but if it goes on for hours it no longer becomes something relaxing but a hassle. I just received a old boker barlow that still had the factory edge intact, but was dull to where the edge was shining and you could rub your thumb over it fast with pressure and not get cut. Took about 20 minutes total sharpening and stropping combined to put a hair whittling edge.

A really good coarse stone that anyone can afford and does great work reprofiling (pretty much any steel) is the norton crystalon stone. I think its around $15, maybe less. It will do a superb job reprofiling most any knife and the silicon carbide cuts fast. Home depot usually has it, but there is a cheaper economy version that isn't as good quality. I personally do not like diamond stones much as I feel it doesn't give much feedback. Feedback is really important to me to tell me that my strokes are consistent. I started to use my arkansas stones a lot the past month since I've been getting more traditional knives. I really like using the black arkansas as a finishing stone. They're smooth, feel good to use, and put a good edge. Only down side is that they cut slow so I would definitely not use them to reprofile anything unless it's minor work.

Found links from knifecenter:
http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/NO...on-Sharpening-Stone-8-inch-x-2-inch-x-12-inch
A smaller one can be purchased for less. A good bang for you buck.

Thats all good and well, but, consider this; none of my knives ever get fully dull. Not like this one came, at least. They all, for the most part, come sharp. That's something I've come to expect from knives, who'd have thought right lol? Most are stainless as well. For 95% of everything I've ever sharpened, I haven't needed anything under 250 grit. Until today, I haven't even considered it. It's the equivalent of rubbing against a brick. I use my knives, strop them, use them, strop again if possible, then sharpen fully, and repeat till going through an initial bevel. Then I re-bevel them and get a good bevel going in a few minutes, (10-20) at 250 grit. It takes me a pretty long time to go through a bevel though, on most of my knives anyway. So, maybe I could use "better equipment" but I've got my bases covered pretty well there I think, save for a hardcore reprofiling stone. I ended up using 100 grit paper taped to my bench. Technique? Yeah, I could stand to improve at creating edges, since most of my time has been spent sharpening existing edges

 

[Peter Parker]

I'm glad to hear you got the lovely little jack going again! I had almost the same problem with my 53 Furtaker except it didn't come dull. I to was about to give up and then I tried lifting off my preferred 30 degree angle to a 35 or 40 degree and also did some stropping which I hardly ever do and it fixed it. Now the this two blade 53 is almost as sharp as my 3 blade 53. I do have to say the wharnecliff is my least favorite user blade it's just to flat for me. I did have the same trouble with both blades but more so with the wharnecliff. I think at least for me it seems like on some of GEC's models they run the RC a little to hard for 1095. For me to hit a hair if I'm using a wharnecliff or even a sheepsfoot I sometimes have to use the tip or rear portion of the edge when using the test for keenness.

 

[knifeswapper]

Spending time and money on the equipment and expertise to get a uniform razor edge is not a priority for the US slippie makers. Some do better than others, but I expect their thinking is that they will spend a minute on it and then let the new owner make improvements (if they see fit). Trying to guess at what bevels and edges a customer is going to want and then spending 20 minutes to get something fairly close adds a lot of expense.
I do wish they would spend a bit more time or build some guides to help them on the belts. But if their knives were much sharper I wouldn't have any fingers left....

 

[Zeta33]

Mistakes happen and I made one. It appears to be perfectly normal for GEC blades to come completely dull. I've read through a fair bit of lecture in this the read (not all bad at all) but the issue is obvious here. I wasn't going coarse enough because I honestly didn't think I'd need to be entirely beveling a brand new knife. Judging by the responses, I'm not the only one that thought so either, and I'm not the only one who got a 47 with an edge that was surprisingly thick and needed serious re-profiling not just a change in angle. That is what I thought was wrong initially, just an improper angle or poor heat treating when in fact the edge was too thick.

I am not a true traditional knife enthusiast like the rest of you. I buy knives that I like and most of mine are modern. The majority of my traditional folder experience has been with Victorinox, and like all other knives I've ever purchase, they come sharp. The dullest SAK I ever got barely needed more than a few licks on my fine strop. Now that I know what to expect, my future traditional purchases will be well informed, thanks to you all. I'm not turned off by GEC at all, I still like their product, I just consider this my "traditional knife culture shock".

 

[glennbad]

I'm glad you were able to get an edge on it after all. That's disappointing that it came like that from the factory. I guess one slips through QC every now and then. Your issue reminded me of a sharpening issue of my own recently.

I did a pass-around on a knife I modded, kind of a mashup pattern. When I got the knife back, I decided to spruce up the edge and carry her for awhile. The only problem, there was no edge. I can't imagine how the last participant was able to use the knife, it was so dull. It took me over an hour on coarse stone to set the bevel back in. I got it back to near scary sharp, but I was amazed at how long it took to get there. I can see how you would think something was wrong with the steel.

Glenn

 

[SonnyJim]

Glad it worked out for you in the end. I have a Schatt & Morgan trapper that had the same issues, and I felt like I was scraping away for ages, and the problem was compounded by the fact that it was D2. It is a seriously fat blade. But in the end, it was a real cathartic experience when it finally did take an edge and I got an insane amount of pleasure from it Now it's one of the sharpest of the lot :thumbup:

Mistakes happen and I made one. It appears to be perfectly normal for GEC blades to come completely dull. I've read through a fair bit of lecture in this the read (not all bad at all) but the issue is obvious here. I wasn't going coarse enough because I honestly didn't think I'd need to be entirely beveling a brand new knife. Judging by the responses, I'm not the only one that thought so either, and I'm not the only one who got a 47 with an edge that was surprisingly thick and needed serious re-profiling not just a change in angle. That is what I thought was wrong initially, just an improper angle or poor heat treating when in fact the edge was too thick.

 

[Jack Black]

Glad it worked out in the end :thumbup: It certainly sounds like you got a duff one there

It appears to be perfectly normal for GEC blades to come completely dull.

It is certainly more common than it should be.

This makes me wonder, maybe this is done on purpose to encourage the user to set up the edge their own way?

Apparently it is not intentional. Lots of threads on the subject here.

If at first you don't succeed Mr Wynt.
Try Try again , Mr Kidd.

LOL! Excellent cultural reference sir! Top marks

 

[Zeta33]

Thanks guys. I'm happily carrying and enjoying the knife now. It looks alright too, considering. Still need to mirror the face on the blade but it's getting there

 

[Badhammer]

My blood red jigged bone actually came pretty dull. First GEC I've ever gotten this way. About 15 minutes on my Sharpmaker with the medium and fine stones and it was good to go. Not an issue really, just out of the norm from past orders.

 

[jrawk]

This thread just saved me days of frustration, i'm sure of it. So, Thanks!

I received a #47 Viper Green Micarta from CollectorKnives.Net yesterday and it's exactly the same condition as Zeta33's out of the box. I too find it strange to get such a dull edge from factory. I'll have to find where i hid my course stones and reprofile it tonight.

No complaints about CollectorKnives.Net. Will buy from them again.

 

[Jack Black]

It's such a shame that GEC's knives have earned a reputation for having dull edges. The 1095 is great, and sending them out sharp would be the easiest thing to fix. I know most of us just accept it, and hopefully GEC are getting better, but for many buyers or potential buyers it's a big factor, and if they get a dull knife they're disappointed.

 

[fatcorgi]

glad it worked out, even after having reprofiled many GECs with coarse diamond stones, I still occasionally find getting an edge frustrating, partly because the size or angle of the bevel can be different on each side, so one side is easy, then you find yourself grinding away the other side forever and even taking away the bevel on the reverse.

a popular youtube knife reviewer gave an interesting reason as to why factories won't put a beautiful mirror edge on their blades - he added up all the extra time it would take, and it would add at least 30 dollars to the cost of the knife.

 

[B.F.U]

Most gecs I've gotten new were sharp to my liking everywhere but the tip and some of the belly. Keeping an angle to the tip wouldn't take any more time once the person sharpening knew how to do it.

That said, though the edges are sharp they're usually thicker than when I sharpen them.

It bothered me a lot at first, so much that i sent my charlow (first gec) back to be sharpened. Now I don't mind putting an edge on, cause it means i know what angle to sharpen at from muscle memory

 

[okbohn]

I know when I did the math to get quality edges on the Northwoods knives, it would add $15-30 to the end price of the knife. I opted to stop the sharpening because every little thing you do to a knife adds up and eventually it is pretty pricy. Sharpening is something most of us do without even thinking of it.

 

[CJF]

I have had the same issue with every GEC I have purchased, at first I thought they were just oddballs that had slipped past their QC. After doing some research I found this to be pretty standard, and I didn't feel so bad.
I love their knives, their designs and build quality is outstanding, and I will continue to buy their products.

I would encourage anyone who acquires a dull GEC knife not to be discouraged by all of this because once you get them sharp, they get scary sharp! Everyone I have will shave like a razor.
It really hasn't been difficult for me to get an edge on any of mine (I use a Sharpmaker also) just time consuming.

Chris

 

[Zeta33]

It definitely got scary sharp after I ground it down enough but it was absurdly thick. I'm happy with the knife, I end up carrying it a few times a week. Good knife, just a poor factory edge.

 

[knarfeng]

I know when I did the math to get quality edges on the Northwoods knives, it would add $15-30 to the end price of the knife. I opted to stop the sharpening because every little thing you do to a knife adds up and eventually it is pretty pricy. Sharpening is something most of us do without even thinking of it.

Thanks, Derrick
I'd done ROM estimates based on my knowledge of factory production costs in the past when such questions had arisen and had come up with a similar figure. Good to have somebody with access to actual costs to confirm it.

 

[B.F.U]

I know when I did the math to get quality edges on the Northwoods knives, it would add $15-30 to the end price of the knife. I opted to stop the sharpening because every little thing you do to a knife adds up and eventually it is pretty pricy. Sharpening is something most of us do without even thinking of it.

Well if +$30 per knife was the actual figure, thank you for opting out!!!

GECs were a big part in my refining of my freehand sharpening, so I don't mind now.

 

[jeffsenpai]

The dull edge issue is sort of what is keeping me away from buying more traditional knives. I recently bought a Bear and Son farmhand, and the knife was perfect in every regard except the butter knife-like edge. I could not do anything to make it sharp. And this is only 440 steel. I ended up sending it away to Jason B. on the forums here, and he put an amazing edge on it. Perfect knife now, but not out of the box.

I do not think its too much to ask a manufacturer to sharpen a knife before selling it.

 

[midnight flyer]

I know when I did the math to get quality edges on the Northwoods knives, it would add $15-30 to the end price of the knife. I opted to stop the sharpening because every little thing you do to a knife adds up and eventually it is pretty pricy. Sharpening is something most of us do without even thinking of it.

Well, if anyone would know, it would be you!

But I have to wonder why all my Kershaws (especially my US made Kershaws) arrive so sharp...
A US made Leek can be had for $40, so I am trying to wrap my head around $15 to $30 for sharpening...

And the only two Spydercos I owned were really factory sharp...

And I am 50/50 on the last 6 Queen knives I bought. 3 of them were actually pretty dang sharp, two were so so, and one was awful. The sharpest of the lot were under $40 to $55, and were multibladed D2. I don't know, but I would doubt Queen has nearly half the price of the knife or more into the sharp knives I received.

The boys at the gun show using their paper wheels and compound can put a really scary, mirror/razor edge on just about any knife regardless of profile (and even blades that are butter knife dull) for $1 and inch, $5 minimum. My three bladed Boker stockman was $7, and he let me test the edge on a piece of copy paper to make sure it was to my liking. All three blades were less than 5 minutes.

I know your knives are gorgeous and very well made. Your reputation as a vendor is impeccable. Your product is fairly priced and enormously popular, too. Obviously you know what you are doing! So can I ask how you came up with that number of $15 - $30? At one time we all expected knives to have a good edge from the factory, but all of us understand now that it is a crap shoot regardless of the maker. And as noted, sharpening isn't that big a deal for most of us as I reset the edges on just about every knife I buy except Kershaws.

Am I not understanding the semantics? Are you talking about a finely honed edge? Thinking of the time I put in my knives to get them where >> I << want them, I could see that kind of cost if done by hand. But I think that what a lot of us would like to see is an even grind and a factory edge like we used to get years ago, and not much more. Nothing "shaving sharp" or anything like it. But to get decent factory edge instead of an unusable blade, I will say what I started with, if anyone would know, it would be you. I hope you will humor me and explain.

As a general contractor I am always interested in what things cost.

Your thoughts?

Robert