GEC 47 Viper: Brand New, Won't Take An Edge

Northwoods made by GEC are my favourites.My keepers are all sharpened to my liking.That Viper looks just fine to me.
 
knarfeng said:
Thanks, Derrick
I'd done ROM estimates based on my knowledge of factory production costs in the past when such questions had arisen and had come up with a similar figure. Good to have somebody with access to actual costs to confirm it.
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I second this, it is interesting to hear this speculation confirmed by an insider. I think the edges on new GECs are mostly even and consistent, in that you don't see the ugly 'micro-recurve' on GECs that you see on some of the other competing brands. (though sometimes uneven on each side). If they just switched to a steeper angle at this stage, it would not add to the price (or would it?). However, I think I still prefer these less finished blades, as they provide a good basis for sharpening, and people can put their preferred edge on it, be it 30°, or 40° or convexed, losing minimal steel.
 
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Having seen old Sheffield cutlers put a razor-sharp edge on a knife in under a minute, I'm astonished it would cost so much extra to produce consistently sharp knives. I realise though, that those skills may not be readily available any more. I do think knife companies should consider a sharp edge on their knives important, but even more important is that they're well ground. While I've had blunt GEC knives, I've not yet had one that had a badly ground edge. We don't seem to have as many posts and threads about dull GEC knives as we did in the past, and while that could be that the posters here just take it for granted that they'll have to spend (hopefully) a few minutes sharpening them themselves, it could be that GEC have taken the issue seriously and are working on improving their edges.
 
I don' t mind at all putting the final edge on a new blade and actually expect to do so. I also enjoy it. What I despise however is having to reprofile a thick edge, this is downright unacceptable. Give me a consistent 30 degree coarse belt finished edge for me to refine and I would be a happy camper. It takes no longer to provide this than what GEC is doing now.
 
blademan 13 said:
I don' t mind at all putting the final edge on a new blade and actually expect to do so. I also enjoy it. What I despise however is having to reprofile a thick edge, this is downright unacceptable. Give me a consistent 30 degree coarse belt finished edge for me to refine and I would be a happy camper. It takes no longer to provide this than what GEC is doing now.
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See, this is my point. I sharpen my blades often, it's no bother, but give me a good grind for my money at least. Many folks agree with the sentiment we share but there are just as many that have some delusion that it's okay for a knife to come with literally no edge. To me, that's just laughable. I buy a knife thinking it needs a touch up at most, not an entirely new profile. It's a KNIFE right? What good is a blunt knife? What about the guy who buys a knife and isn't some collector or connoisseur?
 
Thanks again to all the gentlemen (and ladies) that've been supportive about this and understanding as well. I'm encouraged to post more in this section of BF knowing how cool some of you all are :)
 
midnight flyer said:
Well, if anyone would know, it would be you!

But I have to wonder why all my Kershaws (especially my US made Kershaws) arrive so sharp...
A US made Leek can be had for $40, so I am trying to wrap my head around $15 to $30 for sharpening...

And the only two Spydercos I owned were really factory sharp...

And I am 50/50 on the last 6 Queen knives I bought. 3 of them were actually pretty dang sharp, two were so so, and one was awful. The sharpest of the lot were under $40 to $55, and were multibladed D2. I don't know, but I would doubt Queen has nearly half the price of the knife or more into the sharp knives I received.

The boys at the gun show using their paper wheels and compound can put a really scary, mirror/razor edge on just about any knife regardless of profile (and even blades that are butter knife dull) for $1 and inch, $5 minimum. My three bladed Boker stockman was $7, and he let me test the edge on a piece of copy paper to make sure it was to my liking. All three blades were less than 5 minutes.

I know your knives are gorgeous and very well made. Your reputation as a vendor is impeccable. Your product is fairly priced and enormously popular, too. Obviously you know what you are doing! So can I ask how you came up with that number of $15 - $30? At one time we all expected knives to have a good edge from the factory, but all of us understand now that it is a crap shoot regardless of the maker. And as noted, sharpening isn't that big a deal for most of us as I reset the edges on just about every knife I buy except Kershaws.

Am I not understanding the semantics? Are you talking about a finely honed edge? Thinking of the time I put in my knives to get them where >> I << want them, I could see that kind of cost if done by hand. But I think that what a lot of us would like to see is an even grind and a factory edge like we used to get years ago, and not much more. Nothing "shaving sharp" or anything like it. But to get decent factory edge instead of an unusable blade, I will say what I started with, if anyone would know, it would be you. I hope you will humor me and explain.

As a general contractor I am always interested in what things cost.

Your thoughts?

Robert
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The reason Kai and Spyderco can do it is that THEY do it. If GEC did it, it wouldn't raise the cost of the knife a crazy amount, but for me, I had to send it off to another company to do the sharpening. Also, if I could get someone to do it in my shop, it would be cheaper, but the risk of damaging an expensive knife by inexperience is just too high.

The guys at the knife show do get the knives scary sharp. I could probably have one of them do it, but when I have had the knives sharpened, I have gone to Bark River and had the whole blade reground to be more efficient. Also, any time someone sharpens a blade on a new knife like that, they have to be re-tuned--taking the kick down a bit. All of that leads to more seconds in a run.

The easiest way to handle the sharpness issue is to have the manufacturers take care of it. Both Queen and GEC believe they have done so. I, and my customers, generally disagree.

To me, the bottom line, is that outsourcing the sharpening is more expensive than it is worth.

OOPS...I meant to answer one more thing. When we have had them sharpened, they were the sharpest knives I have ever had out of the box. CRAZY sharp. We did it on several runs of Scagel and on a few runs of Northwoods.
 
okbohn said:
The reason Kai and Spyderco can do it is that THEY do it. If GEC did it, it wouldn't raise the cost of the knife a crazy amount, but for me, I had to send it off to another company to do the sharpening. Also, if I could get someone to do it in my shop, it would be cheaper, but the risk of damaging an expensive knife by inexperience is just too high.

The guys at the knife show do get the knives scary sharp. I could probably have one of them do it, but when I have had the knives sharpened, I have gone to Bark River and had the whole blade reground to be more efficient. Also, any time someone sharpens a blade on a new knife like that, they have to be re-tuned--taking the kick down a bit. All of that leads to more seconds in a run.

The easiest way to handle the sharpness issue is to have the manufacturers take care of it. Both Queen and GEC believe they have done so. I, and my customers, generally disagree.

To me, the bottom line, is that outsourcing the sharpening is more expensive than it is worth.

OOPS...I meant to answer one more thing. When we have had them sharpened, they were the sharpest knives I have ever had out of the box. CRAZY sharp. We did it on several runs of Scagel and on a few runs of Northwoods.
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That all makes sense, Derrick. Thanks for the excellent response.
I'll also add that the Scagel Fruitport I got from you is one of the sharpest knives I own.
 
What is the cost of the machinery Kershaw and Spyderco use for this process? What is the maintenance/turnaround/operator cost for this equipment? How does that amortize over sixty knives a day compared to a thousand or more?
 
knifeswapper said:
What is the cost of the machinery Kershaw and Spyderco use for this process? What is the maintenance/turnaround/operator cost for this equipment? How does that amortize over sixty knives a day compared to a thousand or more?
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I visited Kershaw. Total time on each knife? 68 seconds. I have a feeling that would be a little stretched out for a GEC. :)
 
First off, I'm really not trying to ruffle feathers here and all of this is just my opinion (as uninformed as it is). Every GEC I have is awesome, and the one Northwoods I had was awesome and I have several of each on my "to buy someday" list. That being said, it makes a lot more sense to me that sending them to a third party sharpening service is what would make them more expensive. Naturally that adds the distributed price of two way shipping, the hours put into the process by the dealer, and the actual cost of the sharpening.

I don't have many criticisms of GEC, in fact I am extremely proud to have them in my state and relatively close to my hometown, producing the absolute highest quality all American made by local employees production knives. The one improvement I would really like to see is more consistent sharpening. I have heard the argument that they do not sharpen their knives to the degree that some of us who use the knives might like because for collectors it allows for proof that the knife has not been used. However, if this were so, why then are the flat parts of the blade usually extremely sharp (if not the most acute angles) while the tips are barely ground (I've gotten knives that the very tip had not been hit by a stone at all)? I think all that it would take would be a desire or objective for the person sharpening to continue the even edge all the way to the tip, and the relatively little amount of time it would take to gain the ability to achieve a full edge to the tip. I do understand that the tip is more susceptible to over heating during sharpening, but that is a risk that other companies are able to overcome. In regard to the cost of added machinery, GEC has the machinery to make a good edge, as evidenced by the sharpness of many of the flatter portions of their blades.

Again, I'm not criticizing the knives, the company, or any employee's ability. All I think is needed is a push to ensure that the knives have edges ground evenly to the full length of the tip.
 
okbohn said:
The easiest way to handle the sharpness issue is to have the manufacturers take care of it.
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Agreed, but your sequencing is off. It works like this: make a knife, SHARPEN IT, sell it. Not make a knife, sell it, then get it back in the mail from the customer for sharpening.
 
In my opinion here's how it works. If you are unhappy with a product, vote with your wallet. If enough folks feel and do the same, it'll get fixed. If not it won't.
I think a knife should have a serviceable edge when I receive it. Cutting is kinda job #1 for a knife.......
This might end up in GB&U.
 
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Peregrin said:
In my opinion here's how it works. If you are unhappy with a product, vote with you wallet. If enough folks feel and do the same, it'll get fixed. If not it won't.
I think a knife should have a serviceable edge when I receive it. Cutting is kinda job #1 for a knife.......
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Exactly.

I didn't exactly think this thread would turn out to be this long. I figured everyone would get irritated or otherwise put off reading my complaints but a lot of interesting things have been brought up.

So the main point is that, if we want consistently sharp edges out of GEC, it will cost $15-$30 more? Their knives are otherwise great, so I could deal with that since their prices are fair already but, a sharp edge isn't something that warrants extra charges when what you are buying is inherently supposed to be a sharp blade with a handle, imo .
 
Peregrin said:
In my opinion here's how it works. If you are unhappy with a product, vote with you wallet. If enough folks feel and do the same, it'll get fixed. If not it won't.
I think a knife should have a serviceable edge when I receive it. Cutting is kinda job #1 for a knife.......
This might end up in GB&U.
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That is indeed how the marketplace works. The silent majority is still the majority; in a world where the minority gets the loudest. Not at all to say that GEC/Queen/Case couldn't do a better job at putting on a final edge; but if they are getting a knife 15 minutes away from you making it your baby - it could be worse. Some days I think they skip the honing or sink a pin a little deeper just to give the forums something to talk about. Like today's hollywood actress dancing naked down the street or checking into rehab and having 10 job offers waiting on her when she gets back home.

The factory could do much better, but I laugh a little inside every time I buy a collection of older knives (Case, Remington, Winchester). They are talked up to be from the era of knife nirvana; but if you slapped a GEC shield on them the forums would light up with complaints about what pieces of junk they were. Gaps, nailbreaking springs, underbladed, miserable edges, etc. that would cause mass hysteria if one of today's factories, which are trying to make knives like our grandad's, turned out the same. And for GEC and Queen on the same equipment and the same processes - do you really think today's craftsmen are more skilled than your grandad? NO. Modern equipment has made knives better than they were; and whether it is nostalgia or economics - that is not the path these companies have chosen to take. If factories have a successful product they must choose to stay small and focus on their strengths; or get larger and focus on quantity while maintaining quality. GEC started because they wanted to make knives like they made them 80 years ago; and they are not all getting rich. Bill has called me before to tell me that he was going to be 30 cents higher per knife than he originally quoted; that is how tight he calculates what he has in every knife.

Knives are expensive, and we work hard for our money. If some factories can do a great job, then everything else being equal, others should be able to as well. But I am not going to pretend I know the complexities of putting out a perfect knife any more than I am going to pretend I know what is going on in your life today. Give GEC the benefit of the doubt that they are doing the best job they can and hold on to your hard earned money until you feel like they can suite you. It is no good for anyone to read posts that start like "I had read that GEC didn't put a great edge on a knife, so I bought one and am now here to complain about the edge on my GEC knife."

Friends: GEC does not do a great job at sharpening a knife. GEC is not consistent on eliminating blade play in lockbacks. GEC does sink their pins in non-uniform or thick slabs. GEC does leave their tips riding a little high. If any of these are problems for you and you still want to order one, put in the notes what is a deal killer for you and the dealer will accommodate or cancel the order.

I will apologize ahead of time for those that will think I am the factory apologist or see things thru rose colored glasses. But I talk to these folks every day, and many times about what the current chatter is on the forums. I see them making changes in a fashion that allows them to try to get to where the customers want them while still paying 21 salaries to feed as many families. When you sit in the middle of this business day in and day out, issues like this almost feel like your kids are fighting.
 
Zeta33 said:
So the main point is that, if we want consistently sharp edges out of GEC, it will cost $15-$30 more?
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If you want a specific edge, send me your knife and I will do my best and pay to send it back. I am no pro, but have a Wicked Edge system and can get you a lot further down the road than the factory edge in most cases. I can't do it in 15 minutes and in a previous life my time was worth more than that - but now I count it for nil.
 
knifeswapper said:
If you want a specific edge, send me your knife and I will do my best and pay to send it back. I am no pro, but have a Wicked Edge system and can get you a lot further down the road than the factory edge in most cases. I can't do it in 15 minutes and in a previous life my time was worth more than that - but now I count it for nil.
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I bought the knife from you, told you the service was great, sharpened it myself and got it scary sharp already, and have been a happy camper for some time.

I've tried to express how grateful I was about the service I received from CK. I'm a return customer. Everything is all good. Thank you for the offer.
 
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