Getting impatient...

Hi JR,

Excellent point, I don't think most of us considered as we have been focusing on those who sell out before the doors open.

How about those makers who don't sell out (they outnumber those who do), or even sell enough to cover expenses. if makers can't cover the expenses of a show, ultimately they will have to drop out.

This is yet another way knives are removed from a show that no one will ever see or have a chance to buy.

If this happens to several makers at a show, this will have a much bigger negative impact than makers selling out soon after the doors open.
 
Wulf,
I asked what time you got in for a reason. You came in with the VIP crowd at noon. That gave you a two hour head start over the regular paying public that wasn't lucky or smart enough to get a VIP pass. Should you feel bad about that? No. Apparently you knew the value of that pass.

FWIW, I had a gentleman call me before the show and ask (beg) about a particular knife. I happen to have one of that style and told him I'd hold it for him if he told me he would be there. He said he would be at the show by the time it opened on Friday. Saturday afternoon I still had the knife and no sign of him. A few minutes later I sold it to a good customer that I'd mentioned it to that morning.

As a maker, I simply can't understand the reasoning that I should turn away customers and hold knives in hopes that some other buyer might come by and purchase it. To me, that's a no brainer. Sell to an established customer or hold it a day, maybe two, for a buyer that I've probably never met before that may or may not show up, and want that particular knife. :rolleyes:

RWS, in answer to your question of percentage, some of the knives I brought were started right after last years show, some thru the winter and most were done in the nighttime/weekends/holidays of the 42 days prior to the Blade show during those 12-14 hour days. I worked long hours for the right to sell them to whoever I want to. For me, that's just the way it is and has been for the almost 20 years I've been doing shows.

I could keep typing, but it's late, my head hurts after a long day in the shop with an evening of making knives for the Guild Show, and about 6 more weeks of 12-14 hour days.
 
Kit's example of hiumself getting stuck with a knife must be hypothetical, as if Kit doesnt sell out the first day. :)
 
Some good points by all. As a maker I would like everyone at a show to see all my knives. It is not possible. As Kit said; the long, sometimes frustrating hours in the shop makes us a little independent. A couple of months of 18 hour days will really put an edge on that independence.
Why can't the collectors who want to see some of the harder to get items at a show pick up the phone two or three weeks before the show and ask about a knife or two. There are dealers out there doing their homework. Some collectors too.
Here's how it goes before a show. We get a call. They don't have a twenty question list. "will you have me a couple of pieces" they ask. You reply that you have a couple not spoken for. They say fine, shoot the bull a minute or two then they are off on their mission. We don't discuss price or material or any of that. They trust your work; you trust their word. It takes years to forge those kind of relationships.
Collector, maker, dealer; it doesn't matter; we all have to pay our dues. Those first few years of having to go home and sell off some stuff just to pay the show expenses is not soon forgotten.
Those long time collectors and dealers expect consideration before the show. The VIP's expect consideration before the general public. The average show goer wants to see it and hold it and not have all you work sold online. We hope they can.
It goes around and around. It's the knife business.
mike
 
Kit Carson said:
Wulf,
You came in with the VIP crowd at noon. That gave you a two hour head start over the regular paying public that wasn't lucky or smart enough to get a VIP pass. Should you feel bad about that? No. Apparently you knew the value of that pass.
Click to expand...

Good point. I'm always disappointed when makers sell out prior to the show, but I guess I'm not exactly in a position to criticize. I always make sure to get my VIP pass for Blade, so that I can get in early (not to mention, save a couple of bucks :)). In 2002 (before you could buy early admission for an extra $10), that VIP pass allowed me to get a TNT from Tom Mayo. In 2003, I was already at his table when Bailey Bradshaw unwrapped a damascus and black lip pearl folder; the next person didn't even have a chance to see what they'd missed.
 
Interesting. Some of those who are arguing with me are agreeing with me.

WoodWorkGhost, you wrote: "The reality is that most shows are having fewer and fewer people attend each year. This is due in large part to the availablity of knives on the Internet. I know I travel to fewer shows and take the travel money and spend it on knives."

This is precisely what I've been talking about.

Thanks for repeating it while arguing an opposing viewpoint. :confused:

Just so we're clear:
--> If makers pre-sell knives to VIP collectors and dealers long before the show doors open, and then proceed to show less interest in the show attendees, then the broader collector community has less of an incentive to attend the show.
--> Lower attendance at shows hurts the show promoters.
--> Lower attendance at shows hurts the less known knifemakers who rely upon those shows for exposure.
--> Lower attendance hurts those more established makers who miss out on the opportunity to forge new relationships, promote their work, cultivate new VIP collectors and make their knives even more desirable (allowing them to raise prices).

So who benefits? A few VIP collectors and dealers. And they do so at the expense of show promoters, the knifemaking community, and the knife buying community at large.

Many here have emphasized repeatedly the value of relationships in the custom knife world. Once again, I agree with you. But keep in mind that when I buy a knife from a maker, I get great satisfaction out of that purchase, and through direct interaction with the maker he gets the satisfaction of seeing a truly gleeful and happy customer.

When a dealer buys a knife, it's strictly a business transaction. He's not buying that knife because he likes it. He's not buying that knife because he likes the maker. He's buying it so he can make money from it. And you know what? A lot of your VIP collectors are the same way. I see knives get "flipped" for a quick profit all the damn time. That's just plain shallow.

But if that's the nature of the relationships some of you would prefer, then fine. Have fun with it. They will last only as long as your knives have profit potential for someone else.

I want no part of that kind of BS because the relationships that matter to me are genuine, lasting, and real. And they mean a great deal to me.

Kit Carson, you wrote: "Wulf,
I asked what time you got in for a reason. You came in with the VIP crowd at noon. That gave you a two hour head start over the regular paying public that wasn't lucky or smart enough to get a VIP pass. "

Lucky or smart had nothing to do with it, Kit. I bought my early bird pass from the admissions booth for an extra $10. Everyone else at the show had the exact same opportunity.

You also wrote: "As a maker, I simply can't understand the reasoning that I should turn away customers and hold knives in hopes that some other buyer might come by and purchase it. To me, that's a no brainer. Sell to an established customer or hold it a day, maybe two, for a buyer that I've probably never met before that may or may not show up, and want that particular knife. :rolleyes: "

I'm not sure why you told me this story about the guy that begged you for a knife and never showed up. After all, in my previous post I wrote:

"I don't want special treatment from anyone. I don't deserve special treatment from anyone. I'm just a regular guy. I never ask a maker to hold a knife for me, I never ask for right of first refusal, and I never ask for any special rights or priviledges."

That is a direct quote. Guess you missed it...

Now, as I quoted you above, you said "I simply can't understand the reasoning that I should turn away customers and hold knives in hopes that some other buyer might come by and purchase it." It bears repeating because it's exactly the same sort of thing I've been talking about. Pre-selling or holding knives for VIPs and dealers denies regular folks who really want them the opportunity to buy them, and denies you the opportunity to sell them to the regular folks who really want them.

Once again, the only ones who benefit from this kind of arrangement are the VIP collectors and dealers who did their best to cut in front of the line.

Also, please note the words I just chose. Cut in front of the line. That's exactly what it is.
 
My biggest gripe is that when you examine some of the makers who make 30-50 knives a year and they bring 4-6 knives to a show and sell them all to various dealers on Friday morning.

That is a sad case of low self-esteem. These makers would have no problem selling these knives by Sunday to regular folks for a 20-30% premium over dealer price. That would require selling and standing behind the table however.

Makers like this should try and keep their dealers supplied outside of knife shows in my opinion. Whats the point of showing up there in person otherwise? To stand in front of 5 knives that say sold on them fo 3 days?
 
Wulf, great post. This is an interesting issue with many facets. After reading your post, four things came to mind, in no particular order and defending no particular position:

1) If a collector has one of those cherished, valuable relationships with a maker, he should have no trouble getting a VIP pass or exhibitors pass to a show. Regarding Blade, I've found that all I've had to do is ask...but not at the last minute.

2) I know of instances where a small handful of VIP collectors/dealers (and sometimes they are one in the same) are responsible for supporting an upcoming knifemaker through the early years, by buying the knives others walked right by, and starting the drumbeat that helps these makers become legends. Lets face it. If these guys were nobodys, most of us wouldn't be fighting over their knives. The loyalty and risk-taking of the early patrons deserves to be rewarded.

3) Custom knifemaking is a form of art. In the rest of the art world, past and present, it was the patrons and sponsors who kept starving artists going. The reward for that patronage was special treatment. First refusal on new works, getting on the fast track for orders, etc. Why would the knife world be any different?

4)The knifemakers guild has taken a stand on the issue of handmade knives vs. parts manufactured by others going into handmade knives. If the issue of ethical sales is a big one, perhaps they need to give some attention to it.
 
Will someone PLEASE tell me how pre-selling is some how unethical or unfair?

I e-mailed Bob Lum before Blade, simply to ask where his table would be, as I had been trying to find a chinese folder for 2 years. Bob said he was unsure of his table, and wouldn't know till he go there, but he would have only one chinese folder. I told him I would try and find the table as early as I could.

I showed up at Blade, and Bob didn't get a table, as none opened up for him. He was there walking around. He turned down several people on the chinese folder waiting to find me. He found me and I bought the knife about 2 seconds after he pulled it from the bag.

I never asked him to hold the knife. I never asked for special treatment. Bob did this for me because he knew I wanted the knife. I had never had contact with Bob prior to this.

When makers treat customers like this, they gain repeat customers. I know when I save up enough money, I will be ordering a folding tanto or fixed tanto from Bob.

When makers treat customers special, by holding knives and such, they ultimately help themselves and increase sells in the long run.

I was talking with Kit last year at Blade. I commented that his prices were low, considering what I was seeing on the secondary market. Kit told me that he makes money from other venues, he makes the knives because he loves to make knives and loves knife people. For makers like Kit, it is more about making friends and treating people special then just selling knives to more and more people to increase customer base and make more and more money. So they treat friends and long term customers a little special. And I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.

JR
 
Jeremy Reynolds said:
Will someone PLEASE tell me how pre-selling is some how unethical or unfair?
JR
Click to expand...
I think Wulf summed it up best.
Your cutting in front of the line.

For the knifemakers I'm referring to, like Kit,
there is no need to pre-sell to dealers at a knife show.
I'm still on the fence about whether or not it matters to me if a good customer gets lucky at a knife show before the doors open and buys a knife.

However, I don't think dealers should even put the maker in that position. From what I understand, most dealers don't even buy a table at a show so you can see what they bought on Thursday night.
 
Hi Wulf,

I wasn't agreeing with you that show attendance is descreasing because of knives being sold early. I was pointing out that show attendance is more negatively affected by the Internet and to some degree the problems people perceive "flying" knives.

Truth is that there are shows added every year. This years big addition is the show that Ed Wormser is putting on in the North Suburbs of Chicago in September.

Last year, it was Dan Delevan's Invitational in California and the ABS Show in Reno.

Lots of big name makers at all three shows.

I suspect that there are some shows that are taking hits in attendance. That probably has more to do with the "product mix" than knives being sold early.

I think you need to factor in what Mike and Kit said. That before todays hot makers were todays hot makers. There were a lot of show where selling out was only a fantasy. Those people who bought early (regardless if they were collectors or dealers) will, and rightfully so, expect to be taken care of before those who are now jumping on the band wagon....and that is fair.

As I wrote earlier, the Interpersonal dynamics play a big part in the custom knife business.
 
RWS,

No one has yet pointed out how it is unethical or unfair. How am I cutting in line when that option is open to everyone? It's still first come, first served. Some people choose to do it 2 months in advance to be first.

Like my example with Lum. I have never talked to him. He had no clue who I was or if I was even good for the money. I simply enquired about his knives, and he held one to give me first chance at the knife without being asked to do so.

Again, if pre-ordering is available to all, how is it unfair? I didn't cut in front of anyone, I was there first with an e-mail/phone call/face to face conversation.

I see it this way. If there is something specific I am looking for, and I am paying $1,000 in expenses to get to the show, I am going to do what I can to insure I get it. If I have nothing specific I just want, then I will take my chances that something will jump out and grab me.

I don't think complaining about pre-selling is gonna change or help anything. It's the way business has been done for many years. It garuntees the maker a sell, which helps cover expenses. And not trying to be rude, but if you aren't going to be willing to call and order in advance, then don't complain when what you want isn't there. If you are unwilling to secure it up front, you run a big risk of not getting it.

JR
 
I do not want to upset anyone here, but Jeremy seems to understand. My friend WoodWorkGhost also sums things up well "Interpersonal dynamics play a big part in the custom knife business."

I do not become friends with people for what they can do for me. This year at Blade I had knives scattered all about the hall that are in my collection. Makers contacted me before the show to ask if they could display them on tables. Other makers asked if they could mail their knives to me in advance of the show so that they would not be taking the chance of putting them in their luggage.

The answer is to make friends genuine friends. You will be surprised at the opportunities that come about because of friends of your friends. It also makes collecting a heck of a lot more fun. If it were not for the people I can honestly state that knife collecting would not be as near as big of a part of my life that it is.

Here is an example of one that got away this year. The ABS MS dagger at the auction this year was made by several folks who got there stamps last year.
I have 4 M.S. test daggers from that group. I bid the collaboration dagger to 2500 before the auction on the A.B.S. website before the show and was prepared to go quite a bit higher during the auction. I really wanted the dagger, but time got away from me. It was being auctioned at the time the doors opened and by the time i got to the auction it had gone for 2700. (one of the best bargains at the show.)

Funny that I had dinner at the A.B.S banquet with the gentleman and his young son who got the dagger. I made a new friend and am glad I did not get into a bidding war with him. It all goes back to what I have been saying here for years that took me a few years to learn. It is about the people.
 
For all you guys who think pre-ording is evil and cutting in line, try something for me.

Go to the SuperBowl this year. Show up on game day and go to the front gate. Ask to buy a ticket to the game.

When the laughter subsides, complain about all those customers who cut in line before the day of the game and bought their tickets early.

Before you tell me the tickets were open for sale to the general public, so is pre-ordering a knife. You simply pick up the phone and make the order.

It's not limited to the knife world. It is a common and ethical business practice the world over.

Just an example I thought of earlier.

JR
 
Jeremy "gets it," but I don't... Jeremy understands that it is about the people but I don't...

Geez, Gus... :(



You know, to a lot of those dealers buying knives on Thursday, it's not about the people. It's about the business.

To some of those collectors contacting all sorts of makers ahead of time, or trying to get an exhibitors badge, or asking makers to hold something for them... to some of them it's not about the people either. It's about getting first stab at that high demand knife that can later be sold at a profit. Happens all the frickin' time...

To most other collectors, to most of the regular guys, and to me, well... well it is about the people. So I won't push someone out of the way or cut in line to get to a table first. I won't try to gain some sort of unfair advantage over others. I won't compromise my dignity for a piece of steel. I won't mislead anyone. I won't ask for special favors. I'll just play nice. I'll just be Derrick...

It was certainly nice to finally meet you, Gus. Thanks also for the introductions to Sava and Tai. I actually just bought a neat little "blacksmith" knife from Tai and ordered another one yesterday. He sure is a nice fellow. And talented too. I doubt I'll ever sell the bush knife he's making for me...

... have a good weekend, all.
 
Let me also quickly add that the dagger you mentioned was indeed a stunner. I can see why you were so interested in it (Buddy showed it to me after the banquet dinner), and I'm sure you're also quite relieved to know that it went to a great home. :)
 
Wulf my friend (and I mean that)
I used to get a table at certain shows and have a relationship with the people who run some of them. I get in with an exhibitors badge. I spent much of Thursday helping folks tote in wares and setting up.

Never ever have I used that badge to buy a knife and turn it. Ever. My dignity and the dignity of the collectors that I see on Thursday in the hall is intact. The knife collectors I know are not greedy.

I have been collecting knives for a long time (over 30 years) and during that period I have sold (actually traded one) two custom knives. Both went to dealers. Both were the first customs that I ever purchased.

The behavior that you are refering too is a negligible part of the behavior that I see from fellow collectors (actually I have never seen it from the Thursday crowd of collectors at Blade.). I agree that it is wrong, I disagree that it is significant.
 
Posted by Jeremy:
No one has yet pointed out how it is unethical or unfair.
Click to expand...

As somebody who has not been to Blade, or really any dedicated knife show, maybe I can be a bit objective here.

I personally dont see a problem with an individual such as yourself doing it the way you do. I know you have ordered knives from makers like Kit. You could wait on them to be done and delivered in the mail, or wait on them to be done, and pick them up at Blade. There is no difference to me except the method of delivery.

I think the thing that many people have an issue with is dealers snatching up things that they know are in demand at a show put on for collectors (the people, as it were). We have seen examples of makers (lets say BillyBob) attending a show. People know this, and they make plans to travel because they want one of BillyBob's knives. Maybe BB even posted pics of his knives in the gallery to show what he was going to have. Now imagine the guy who went there going to BBs table, and BB says "Oh gee, the dealer snagged all of my knives the night before the show even opened". Now that dealer probably had standing orders with BB and could have gotten them almost any time, but decided to wait until Blade so he could run home and post them on his site while "knife-fever" was still in the air. Un-ethical? Who knows. Illegal? Abosulutely not. Frustrating for the show goer? Absolutely.

It would be similar to going to the big gun show here and having a certain vendor letting it be known he would have certain items there. You drive there, pay money and go to his table and have him tell you that some dealer caught him at the hotel the night before and snagged it all. One would have to admit that they would be horribly frustrated. At the same time, it would be hard to blame the vendor, as he probably needs all the definate sales he can get to make sure expenses are covered.

And as Forrest Gump would say, thats all I've got to say about that.
 
As a maker I have to agree with Jeremy.I see nothing wrong with pre-orders or dealer sales.I would love to keep every knife out on the table for the public but with the expenses being the way they are it just isn't always possible.While most of us makers like shows for seeing old friends and making new ones, and a little time away from the shop, the bottom line is still making some money.To turn down sure deals with hopes of sales on Sunday will put the hurts on most makers.I have seen many makers sell out and still man the table for the duration of the show.I have never soldout at a show but would definately stay just to meet new people.Dave :)
 
Richard said:
....dealers snatching up things that they know are in demand at a show put on for collectors (the people, as it were).......
Click to expand...

I swore I wouldn't participate in this thread...but, what the heck.

QUESTION: Who do dealers sell to?
ANSWER: Collectors.

(and for what it's worth, I've yet to buy a knife from a maker at a lower price than what the dealer was charging)
 
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