Glock 17 alternative

I can reccomend STI GP6 (actually it is Slovakian design). Rotational lock up system, very short trigger reset... Even I was able to shoot good double taps :p. Glock is great gun too, but i don´t like its ergonomy - doesn´t feel good in my hands.
 
STAGE 2 said:
Friends don't let friends shoot grocks. :D

Seriously, if you want something thats as reliable as a glock, but more refined and more accurate, then get a walther P99. Probably the most ergonomically comfortable pistol out there, a tack driver and very very concealable.

I've got all sorts of nines, but my walther would be the last to go.
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There are reasons that most any LEO agency that carried a P99 has dumped them. You don't see any that are carrying Sigmas either.

They may be reliable for casual shooting, but there have been enough failures and range problems with LEO's that I would not carry one.

Yours may work well, but how many rounds have you put through it, and under what conditions? It may work well for you, but unfortunately you have a sample of one, and agencies with larger amounts of guns have shown trends where they are no longer in service with many officers.
 
troutfisher13111 said:
RAT people, thanks for all the responses. I think what I am going to do is hold out for exactly what I want, and that's a Glock 17. I may consider gunbroker, I just have to get over my buying a gun on-line fears.
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The only negatives I have experienced with buying online is the costs of next day shipping for handguns, so if you find a deal it becomes less so once you have it shipped, and the need to find an FFL willing to handle transfers cheaply. Online dealing has been the way things have been going for a long time for many dealers, as they get more customer exposure.

I would like to agree with the others to consider a G19. I've carried Glocks for almost 10 years professionaly, and not by choice when I had to. They have grown on me, and are excellent weapons. If you are looking for the perfect compromise of defense and concealability, the G19 is really hard to beat. I prefer the larger G17 for duty, but would have no problems with the G19. People have suggested the S&W M&P, and I can also recommend this gun. A number of agencies around me have either transitioned to this gun or are seriously looking at it to replace their Glocks or other weapons.

I currently carry a G23, which is basically the same with the exception of the different caliber, and for many years carried the fullsize G22, again, same but in a 40SW. Consider getting some larger G17 magazines, as if you're in a fight and need to reload, why not reload with as much ammunition as you can carry? I also carry the larger magazines as they are easier to grab and work with. I only use the compact magazines if I'm looking for very very concealed carry.

In case someone discusses it with you, and you are persuaded to go towards
the 40SW Glocks, be aware of problems Glock has had with frames made from 2005-2008. There are threads documenting issues officers are having with malfunctions. It deals with the slide velocity and the round hanging up slightly on the feedramps it seems. Glock has different magazines and followers to solve the issue, it it solves it for some and not others. It has been a difficult problem to fully diagnose. It has been enough to shake my confidence in my sidearm actually.

On the other hand, if you don't mind that, I've got a G23 I'd sell so I could get a G19 or G21SF! :D Anything but a 40SW Glock at the moment for me!
 
I love my Glock 19 in the 40 S&W. The lite weight for carry, and the fit that gives me the confidence that I do not miss-makes it my choice for my back country big game hunts and my "insurance policy" for my current construction project in a seedy part of town..Steve
 
TacticalSquirrel said:
There are reasons that most any LEO agency that carried a P99 has dumped them. You don't see any that are carrying Sigmas either.
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My buddy who is around 53 who has shot all his life and is a fellow Sig and HK guru had a P99 and sold it because He said It was extremely heavy. I've never held one, But I trust him.

O my.. When I worked at SW, I had a guy come talk to me about how he was Concealed carrying a Sigma and asked me what I had.. At the time all I had was my 220. He lectured me for about 20 minutes about how I wasted my money on a gun that wasnt near as reliable and accurate as the SW Sigma. :eek: Some people just dont have a clue.

My cities PD is one of the few in the DFW area that Issues HK USPs to their LEOs.
 
troutfisher13111 said:
Well, I have been in the market for a Glock model 17, and according to both my local gun shops, there are none to be found. Whats the next best thing? I have heard the Springfield XD's are nice, but I have never shot one myself.

I am asking this here because as far as Internet people go, I trust the opinions of many people on this board.
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Order one from here, $520 shipped to your FFL:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/764503502170.html
 
cz375hh said:
I love my Glock 19 in the 40 S&W. The lite weight for carry, and the fit that gives me the confidence that I do not miss-makes it my choice for my back country big game hunts and my "insurance policy" for my current construction project in a seedy part of town..Steve
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Glock 19 is in 9mm. Glock 23 is in 40 S&W.

FYI
 
troutfisher13111 said:
Well, I have been in the market for a Glock model 17, and according to both my local gun shops, there are none to be found. Whats the next best thing? I have heard the Springfield XD's are nice, but I have never shot one myself.

I am asking this here because as far as Internet people go, I trust the opinions of many people on this board.
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http://www.summitgunbroker.com/1838356.html

Great guns or the price. Very reputable dealer, and you can always sell it locally for what you paid.
 
TacticalSquirrel said:
There are reasons that most any LEO agency that carried a P99 has dumped them. You don't see any that are carrying Sigmas either.
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The only motivating factor for LEO agencies is $$$. A walther costs more to make than a glock so it isn't surprising.


They may be reliable for casual shooting, but there have been enough failures and range problems with LEO's that I would not carry one.
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Then I would ask for some data that shows problems with the german made P99's and not the S&W bastardized versions. I take this with a grain of salt because if you take a trip across the pond, there are plenty of agencies that have used the walther with great success. That tells me this is a money factor and not a performance factor.


Yours may work well, but how many rounds have you put through it, and under what conditions? It may work well for you, but unfortunately you have a sample of one, and agencies with larger amounts of guns have shown trends where they are no longer in service with many officers.
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Again, lets see some data. I've shot walthers for a long time and this is news to me.
 
Jake Bauer said:
My buddy who is around 53 who has shot all his life and is a fellow Sig and HK guru had a P99 and sold it because He said It was extremely heavy. I've never held one, But I trust him.
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You shouldn't. The walther weighs 720 grams. The sig weighs 870 and the HK 748. In other words, its the lightest of the three.
 
As was mentioned earlier, there is no substitute for a G-17. Some may feel they need an external safety and decide on an XD. You have to figure out what is right for you. :cool:
 
STAGE 2 said:
The only motivating factor for LEO agencies is $$$. A walther costs more to make than a glock so it isn't surprising.

That statement is a gross generalization. Budgets and dollars are important, but many agencies do agency tests to decide which pistols they prefer. If your statement was true, then Sigs shouldn't be carried by any agencies either. The agency I know that replaced the P99 went with Sig Sauer.

Then I would ask for some data that shows problems with the german made P99's and not the S&W bastardized versions. I take this with a grain of salt because if you take a trip across the pond, there are plenty of agencies that have used the walther with great success. That tells me this is a money factor and not a performance factor. This may be, but Walther P99 are not sold or marketed here to Police agencies. I know that there is a difference between the two. I tend to take "Across the pond agencies" with my own grain of salt, as I know that firearms useage and training seem to be different due to America's culture and heritage of firearms.

Again, lets see some data. I've shot walthers for a long time and this is news to me.
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I will admit that my particular information is anecdotal to the point that I am relaying observations from the individuals and agencies that had the issues and problems. However, if Agency A says that they have numerous parts failures from weapon 99, and these points are confirmed by individuals and agencies that put more rounds down range than you or I and anyone you can find combined, I tend to listen to their observations. These statements are ones that I have listened to from other officers in my professional communities who are relaying the info. Many agencies do not publish data or stats. There is no specific data in terms of the Glock 40 S&W failures they are having now either. However, the vast number of agencies that are saying they are seeing these intermittent problems is enough to show a trend, and in police work this is called a clue. You can discount my anecdotes if you wish. Or you can note that an issue has come up, and look into it yourself if you wish to find more info. It is out there.
 
TacticalSquirrel said:
That statement is a gross generalization. Budgets and dollars are important, but many agencies do agency tests to decide which pistols they prefer. If your statement was true, then Sigs shouldn't be carried by any agencies either. The agency I know that replaced the P99 went with Sig Sauer.
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Its not a gross generalization at all. The biggest reason why glock controls such a large share of the LE market is because of the massive discounts they give to agencies and the repair/armorer support. Don't get me wrong its a good gun, but there are plenty of good guns out there, most with better ergos than the glock. At the end of the day, it comes down to $$ and glock can undercut everyone.

This may be, but Walther P99 are not sold or marketed here to Police agencies. I know that there is a difference between the two. I tend to take "Across the pond agencies" with my own grain of salt, as I know that firearms useage and training seem to be different due to America's culture and heritage of firearms.
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A cop is a cop is a cop. Your average policeman, whether he's patrolling in chicago or munich, isn't a gun guy. He shoots to qualify and thats about it. He's not particularly anal about cleaning or maintenance. Granted there are historical preferences (we like bigger calibers to get the job done whereas they dont) but this doesn't have anything to do with the function of the gun. The P99 is the standard service weapon for loads of agencies in europe and there aren't any problems that I've heard of.

Its not like it would be difficult to find a replacement if they didn't like the gun. HK and glock are in their backyard. So the fact that they use the walther to the extent they do tells you something.


I will admit that my particular information is anecdotal to the point that I am relaying observations from the individuals and agencies that had the issues and problems. However, if Agency A says that they have numerous parts failures from weapon 99, and these points are confirmed by individuals and agencies that put more rounds down range than you or I and anyone you can find combined, I tend to listen to their observations.
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Ok, so lets deal with some specifics. Like I said above, most LEO's aren't gun guys. Just because someone is in law enforcement is no guarantee that they shoot more than I or any other gun owner does.


These statements are ones that I have listened to from other officers in my professional communities who are relaying the info. Many agencies do not publish data or stats. There is no specific data in terms of the Glock 40 S&W failures they are having now either.
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They may not publish data, but there are plenty of searchable incidents that one can point to do demonstrate the problems with the glock 40. This is why I'm slightly wary. There have been enough failures with the glock to even coin a term for it and its still the mainstay of LEO pistols, but I havent found any info about these alleged walther failures and I'm to assume that they are the reason for agencies switching.

You can discount my anecdotes if you wish. Or you can note that an issue has come up, and look into it yourself if you wish to find more info. It is out there. [/COLOR]
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But you haven't even given me an anecdote. I asked you for specifics and you told me that a friend of a friend told you that there were "problems". That isn't an anecdote that the vaguest of thirdhand hearsay.

If you are going to make the statement that agencies are switching from the walther because of massive problems then at least provide some tangible evidence to support this claim.
 
STAGE 2 said:
Its not a gross generalization at all. The biggest reason why glock controls such a large share of the LE market is because of the massive discounts they give to agencies and the repair/armorer support. Don't get me wrong its a good gun, but there are plenty of good guns out there, most with better ergos than the glock. At the end of the day, it comes down to $$ and glock can undercut everyone. When Glocks first came out, this was definitely a reason how they were able to get a foothold. However, since then Glock's prices have risen enough that other models have become quite competitive. I still say it is a gross generalization because if it was all about dollars and cents, LEO's would be carrying Sigmas or Ruger P89's or P95's.

A cop is a cop is a cop. Your average policeman, whether he's patrolling in chicago or munich, isn't a gun guy. He shoots to qualify and thats about it. He's not particularly anal about cleaning or maintenance. Granted there are historical preferences (we like bigger calibers to get the job done whereas they dont) but this doesn't have anything to do with the function of the gun. The P99 is the standard service weapon for loads of agencies in europe and there aren't any problems that I've heard of. You're right, most cops are not gun people. HOWEVER, there are a number of officers and agencies that are more oriented towards firearms and tactics. They train more than just to qualify annually, and you have to admit that cops in America as a whole DO have more gun experience than the majority of Europeans. With our 2nd Amendment and history of hunting and shooting sports compared to the larger restrictions on firearms in Europe, we have more opportunities. You may not have heard of any problems, but discounting when someone has is akin to tucking one's head in the sand.

Its not like it would be difficult to find a replacement if they didn't like the gun. HK and glock are in their backyard. So the fact that they use the walther to the extent they do tells you something. You're right, I'm sure there is a reason why they pick Walther over Beretta, Sig, Glock, HK. I'll take it as a clue, and look into it myself as to why. I'd also be curious to know what the actual numbers are. It's something I can try to look up.

Ok, so lets deal with some specifics. Like I said above, most LEO's aren't gun guys. Just because someone is in law enforcement is no guarantee that they shoot more than I or any other gun owner does. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

They may not publish data, but there are plenty of searchable incidents that one can point to do demonstrate the problems with the glock 40. This is why I'm slightly wary. There have been enough failures with the glock to even coin a term for it and its still the mainstay of LEO pistols, but I havent found any info about these alleged walther failures and I'm to assume that they are the reason for agencies switching. The KB's in Glock 21's are different than the malfunctions occuring with the Glock 22's and 23's. The guns are not blowing up-they are malfunctioning during the firing cycle and having failure to feeds. Detroit PD and Milwaukee PD are two agencies that have recently dumped Glock in favor of M&P's.

But you haven't even given me an anecdote. I asked you for specifics and you told me that a friend of a friend told you that there were "problems". That isn't an anecdote that the vaguest of thirdhand hearsay. Actually, my information comes from one agency in a previous jurisdiction, who's officer's I interacted with on a daily basis that had trigger issues and failures to feed with SW P99's. The problems were so bad that after 6 months they were traded off for a different make/model sidearm at a loss. It comes from another agency who I spoke with one of the officer's that carried a P99, witnessed and had personal knowledge through the fact that his co-workers also had problems with parts breakages such as the sear housing to the point that they dumped the P99 in favor of a Sig model. It comes from Pat Rogers, a person who's classes I've attended several times for training. Pat is a person with industry and professional contacts that are indisputable, and when combined with the information he obtains as a result as well as the numerous observations of weapons that work and fail in the hundreds of thousands of rounds fired annually at trainings he conducts, he is able to draw conclusions from the trends he personally witnesses. When persons such as him and others relay those types of experiences, and say the P99 has problems, I personally don't need data. The information to me is good enough to be treated as reliable.

If you are going to make the statement that agencies are switching from the walther because of massive problems then at least provide some tangible evidence to support this claim.
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See above. NJ State Police reportedly had breakages during testing that led to them not selecting it as a duty weapon as one example. There are others that can be found.

I know that there have been numerous reports of persons liking the ergonomics of the P99's and have claimed great reliability. To that degree, my knowledge of issues is limited to the S&W versions, so that could be the difference in views we are having.
 
Let's all chill out or I'll lock the thread ... We all like guns and what not... to each there own...
I dont want to lock it or move it to a more fitting section.
 
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