Got my first CRK Sebenza yesterday. The Emperor's new knife.

[BellaBlades]

Never mind.

 

[AusLoX]

Three words...... IN YOUR OPINION




In mine, they are worth exactly what they cost. And I don't buy 12 thousand dollar purses either


I appreciate your input, but I respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said about CRK. Just because you "own a knife shop", doesn't mean you're an expert on knives. There are plenty of extremely knowledgeable knife guys out there that would say that sebenzas are in fact UNDERPRICED.

The above statement has several fallacies of argument within. (not going to list them all) But the terms overpriced or underpriced are based on, will someone will buy the knife or not. CRK doesn't seem to have a problem selling his knives and he will continue to sell them at about the same rate he always has. If he were to lower the price his sales will increase quantity wise, and possibly dollar wise depending on the increased quantity sales. I think what dragon is trying to say is that for the materials used they are over priced.

 

[Krissig12]

Do you collect?

I'm not a "collector", but I own a sebenza. I find it to be a perfect Edc knife and absolutely worth the cost. Your assertion that they are only for "collectors" implies that they are more of a novelty than a good usable knife for everyday carry.

Just pointing out that the cost is, in fact, inflated.

In fact? There you go again stating your opinion as fact

Whether or not something is overpriced is HIGHLY subjective

 

[Krissig12]

The above statement has several fallacies of argument within. (not going to list them all) But the terms overpriced or underpriced are based on, will someone will buy the knife or not. CRK doesn't seem to have a problem selling his knives and he will continue to sell them at about the same rate he always has. If he were to lower the price his sales will increase quantity wise, and possibly dollar wise depending on the increased quantity sales. I think what dragon is trying to say is that for the materials used they are over priced.

Materials aren't everythkng. How the hell do you explain the cost of customs if you only take materials into account?

 

[brancron]

Sounds more like you are the one trying to stir something up. All I did was post my observation. You CRK guys seem to upset easily though. I have no problem with the knives, I just dont see why they are as popular as they are. Maybe if I owned one I would.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

 

[bhyde]

Well its like the Prada purse example I used. Charging that much is what keeps them on the high end of the market and leads to the type of overhype you see with stuff like this. Lowering the price and making it a knife for the masses just makes it plain and ordinary. I'm sure I'm gonna get an earful for that statement, but its true. Yes its a well made knife, but face it, you aren't paying normal mark-up, you're paying a premium for it. Try ordering a knock off from China - and before you start I know its cheaper in China for a variety of reasons - but for $87 you can get a damn good copy with very similar tolerances. Its because CNC machining today is sophisticated and inexpensive. Oh and before I get all beat up for comparing CRK to a China copy, I have a print out FROM CRK warning people against buying from non authorized dealers due to the copies being so well made that its difficult to tell the difference between the fake and one of his. Of course the fake is garbage steel, but the f&f you all crave is very close; and close enough to fool so many people that CRK had to notify its consumers and even retailers.
If it sounds like I'm bashing the sebenza, I'm not. Just pointing out that the cost is, in fact, inflated. I'm sure you're all very happy with the knife cuz its a great knife, its just overpriced. If you're on the fence for buying one, I'd ask: Do you collect? If you dont, buy a Benchmade or Spyderco. They will serve you well and the price is right. If you collect and love knives, definitely ontt count this knife out, but also dont buy it sight-unseen because you might be in for a shock. Also, if you dont believe in paying more than something is actually worth, I'd say look into something else or look for a used CRK in good condition (after all, they are very hard to damage). I believe that was the original point of this post. That's an honest opinion from someone who works with all brands and types of knives 8hr a day, 40 a week. Maybe that doesn't make me an expert, but I'd say it helps

The bolded part of your quoted text...Where did you get this information from?

 

[AusLoX]

Materials aren't everythkng. How the hell do you explain the cost of customs if you only take materials into account?

Because its no longer a custom knife...

 

[AusLoX]

The bolded part of your quoted text...Where did you get this information from?

CNC refers to the use of a computer to control and monitor the movements of a machine. The machine could be a milling machine, lathe, router, welder, grinder, laser or waterjet cutter, sheet metal stamping machine, robot or many other types of machines. The computer is generally an on-board dedicated controller in the case of the larger industrial machines, but could be an external PC in the case of smaller, more hobbyist types of machines or with some retrofits. The CNC controller works together with a series of motors and drive components to move the machine axes in a controlled way, executing the programmed motions. On the industrial machines there is usually a sophisticated feedback system, constantly monitoring and adjusting the speed and position of the cutter. They a cost about $12,000 or about the cost of 24 CRKs

 

[bhyde]

CNC refers to the use of a computer to control and monitor the movements of a machine. The machine could be a milling machine, lathe, router, welder, grinder, laser or waterjet cutter, sheet metal stamping machine, robot or many other types of machines. The computer is generally an on-board dedicated controller in the case of the larger industrial machines, but could be an external PC in the case of smaller, more hobbyist types of machines or with some retrofits. The CNC controller works together with a series of motors and drive components to move the machine axes in a controlled way, executing the programmed motions. On the industrial machines there is usually a sophisticated feedback system, constantly monitoring and adjusting the speed and position of the cutter. They a cost about $12,000 or about the cost of 24 CRKs[/QUOTE]


No...this is patently FALSE

You responded to something I know ALOT about.. I have a good portion of my life dedicated to programming and running these machines..and a whole lot more.

I want to know from the poster that works in a knife shop where they got their information from that CNC's are cheap to run.

 

[Krissig12]

Because its no longer a custom knife...

How did that in any way answer my question? I asked how you would justify custom knife prices if you only factored in materials.

And while you are correct that CRKs aren't custom knives, that doesn't mean there isn't more going into the price than just the materials used. The machines used to make them aren't just run of the mill CNCs. They had to design and develop them over many many years to get them to the point where they could produce knife parts of such tight tolerences. Then factor in the fact that there IS in fact a decent amount of hand work that goes into the making of each knife, and well........there ya go.

 

[Todd21969]

It is my opinion seeing how this is a forum. Post u refer to was me talking to someone else who said I was "insulting him" with my opinion. Again, calm down everyone, I said its a great knife, just over priced. The fact I work at a shop means I get to handle many knives - along with many other very expensive knives as well. Plus I know many collectors and get to see private stuff many people dont get to see. All I can say is that the cost of his stuff is about $100 too much.

Just a thought....perhaps your boss could cut your pay and benefits?

Then he could lower his overhead, lower his retail price, and charge his customers what you feel the Sebenza is really worth?

 

[k_ozdragon]

The bolded part of your quoted text...Where did you get this information from?

CNC machine is an investment to be sure, but cost to operate it isn't super exorbitant. I base that off of knowing several people who run shops and own one. They can make AR-15 foregrips at a cost of roughly $50 and sell them for $300+ a pop due to cheap cost of operation, and the market willing to pay outrageous prices for such simple items.

 

[k_ozdragon]

Just a thought....perhaps your boss could cut your pay and benefits?

Then he could lower his overhead, lower his retail price, and charge his customers what you feel the Sebenza is really worth?

So pay me less so Chris Reeve can over charge for his knives.... There's a genius thought. Better yet, why dont I work for free so we can practically give them away? All hail Chris Reeve!!!!
And btw, we quit carrying Chris Reeve because or store isn't located in the rich area of town where people have money to just piss away. In order to sell them, we put them just barely above wholesale, which is bad business. I can see why so many of you wonder where my pricing came from too. Looking at the internet and seeing people doing just that, selling them for $10 over wholesale. We see this a lot. This is also why we went from roughly 15 knife shops in this area down to 2 currently. Coincidentally one of the few shops to sell them where I live is also located in the mall along with Prada and Louis Vuitton... but I wonder where I get the idea they're kinda pricey...

 

[bhyde]

CNC machine is an investment to be sure, but cost to operate it isn't super exorbitant. I base that off of knowing several people who run shops and own one. They can make AR-15 foregrips at a cost of roughly $50 and sell them for $300+ a pop due to cheap cost of operation, and the market willing to pay outrageous prices for such simple items.

Sounds like you are in the wrong business then...Rather than selling knives in a shop, you probably should get a CNC or a pack of them and try that out.

Here is some names of some machine tool centers. Feel free to look up these virtual ATM's so you can start right away! (will probably need a 4:1 ratio of CNC mills to CNC lathes

Okuma
Mori Seiki
Hurco
Makino
Mazak
Haas


These machines start around $100k for the low end machine Haas that may have some capacity to make the cash flow like water and go up from there. Most of the other machines are closer to $200k ea.
A seat of software to run program these machines..Capable CAM software is usually around $10-20k and CAD software is about the same
Let's not forget the tooling for these..Endmills, drills, taps- They are not included in the machine, nor are the qualified personnel that operated these machines.
Get yourself some industrial band saws, some laps (gotta get those handles flat now)
A few grinders, both bench and precision surface grinders.
Some industrial coolants, cutting fluids, and oils for the ways on the machines..
Don't forget the 3-phase power
The building to house all this in...


Yep..Mere pocketchange..It's a wonder everybody isn't doing it!!

I'm sure you know next to nothing about this equipment and how expensive it is. You are falling into a trap that most people fall into; You relate cost to size.

 

[k_ozdragon]

Btw what mods has Reeves made to the 25? I know the lock-up has been made more aggressive, which I like, as well as adding the ceramic ball in the contact area - another feature I like.
Also, is s35vn softer than the regular "sXv" series steels? I figured that since niobium is a carbide it would strengthen the hardness, but also improve tensile strength by binding the other carbides more uniformly.

 

[Memphis Tiger]

To repeat what many others have said, it comes down to quality in manufacturing. If you appreciate the high tolerance design and machining, you pay for it. If that is less important to you, you can find many other knives that use the same steel for less money.

When it comes down to it, I prefer quality over quantity (which I forego, as I could have many more cheaper knives if I didn't own two Sebenzas). While I like my Bucks, Benchmades and Spydercos, a Sebenza is usually in my pocket.

 

[k_ozdragon]

Sounds like you are in the wrong business then...Rather than selling knives in a shop, you probably should get a CNC or a pack of them and try that out.

Here is some names of some machine tool centers. Feel free to look up these virtual ATM's so you can start right away! (will probably need a 4:1 ratio of CNC mills to CNC lathes

Okuma
Mori Seiki
Hurco
Makino
Mazak
Haas


These machines start around $100k for the low end machine Haas that may have some capacity to make the cash flow like water and go up from there. Most of the other machines are closer to $200k ea.
A seat of software to run program these machines..Capable CAM software is usually around $10-20k and CAD software is about the same
Let's not forget the tooling for these..Endmills, drills, taps- They are not included in the machine, nor are the qualified personnel that operated these machines.
Get yourself some industrial band saws, some laps (gotta get those handles flat now)
A few grinders, both bench and precision surface grinders.
Some industrial coolants, cutting fluids, and oils for the ways on the machines..
Don't forget the 3-phase power
The building to house all this in...


Yep..Mere pocketchange..It's a wonder everybody isn't doing it!!

I'm sure you know next to nothing about this equipment and how expensive it is. You are falling into a trap that most people fall into; You relate cost to size.

Damn why even buy one then? There's people using CNC machines to make micarta grips at $90 a piece, they must be crazy!!! I might not know all the bs you do, but the shop that makes those paid $80k or so for it. Also, several high schools around here have them... so yeah. If a qualified tech can teach highschool students to do it. Still though, if the costs outweigh the profits, I guess they do it for the love of manufacturing and making things that make engineering nerds squeal "omfg look at those tolerances!!!!"
I'm sure after 20+ years of making Sebenzas CRK is just now paying his off. Now I feel sorry for him.

 

[Twindog]

Initial impressions: ZT 0562CF vs Sebenza 25CF. I thought it would help this discussion to compare two USA-made knives that are fairly similar, but much different in price and technology.


Both of these knives are roughly the same size: The handles are each 4.8 inches. The Sebenza packs more blade length into that handle: 3.625 inches to 3.5 inches for the ZT. The ZT is slightly thicker, but both are just under a half inch thick. The ZT is a little wider, so it will take up a bit more pocket real estate.


Both are frame locks. Both are made in the USA. Both have a carbon fiber scale. The ZT’s carbon fiber is nicer to my eye and has a little more grip. The ZT’s carbon fiber is thinner (0.0850 inches) and needs a liner. The Sebenza’s carbon fiber scale is thicker (0.1445 inches), but has no liner.


The big difference is the price: $485 (Knife Art) for the Sebenza vs $240 (GP Knives) for the ZT.


There are other differences, too.


The ZT handles much better. It is a flipper with ball bearings for the pivot. The Sebenza has old-school washers, although they are perforated to better hold grease. Much easier to open the ZT.


Blade play: Zero for both knives.


Steel: The ZT’s M390 is probably a better EDC steel than the Sebenza’s S35VN. It’s likely to hold an edge longer, but the Sebenza will probably be easier to resharpen. Toughness (resistance to chipping and breaking) are probably close. The Sebenza blade is 58-59 Rc, which is a bit soft. ZT doesn’t say, and I’ve looked but cannot find that hardness. It’s hard for me to believe that a company like ZT will not make that information available right up front. Knife companies that sell these ZT knives don’t say, either, which is also amazing to me. There is no excuse for a high-end knife company to hide the hardness of the steel it uses. I remember how difficult it was to get ZT to acknowledge that its 0560CBCF (S110V) was left soft at 59 Rc, and maybe softer, since no production knife maker ensures that hardness range at just one point of hardness. We know it could not have been harder because it would have melted the copper brazing on the composite blade.


Steel finish: The Sebenz finish is much better than the ZT’s, which has grind lines and a noticeable scratch.


Tolerances: I have no idea. I presume the tolerances on the Sebenza are tighter, but not that I can tell.


Edge: The Sebenza’s edge is better ground. The grind is even, although fairly obtuse at 20/20 degrees per side. The ZT’s edge grind is uneven and the edge angle is 20/15 dps. The ZT’s edge is sharper out of the box.


Ergos: The Sebenza’s egos are mediocre. The ZT’s are good to excellent.



Blade geometry: The Sebenza is supposed to be a thick hollow grind, but it’s really a flat grind. I pressed a ruler against the edge and held it to the light and could detect no hollow grind.


The ZT’s blade grind is also flat ground. The ZT is supposed to be a slicer grind, but that’s a marketing lie. The edge shoulders on the ZT are 0.035 inches wide. The edge shoulders on the Sebenza are 0.025 inches wide. Neither is a great slicer, but the Sebenza is better. Blade stock is 0.1545 on the ZT and 0.1390 on the Sebenza, both measured at the base of the blade. Neither geometry is optimized for slicing.


Lock up: Both blades lock up solidly. The ZT locks up at about 40 percent. The Sebenza locks up at 90 percent. My old Large Regular Sebenza’s lock up has moved from 55 percent to 95 percent with just moderate use, so the Sebenza lock looks to be poorly fitted for longevity.


Pocket clip: The ZT has a deep-carry clip that is secure and easy to draw. The Sebenza has a high-rider clip with an extra clamp at about the 60 percent level. It’s easy to think you’ve pocketed the knife, when in fact it’s sticking way up. When it is fully pushed down, the knife is difficult to withdraw.


Miscellaneous: The Sebenza is simpler, more elegant. Fewer bells and whistles. The exception is the lanyard, a kind of short, tight pig tail with a Ti bead. It gets in the way of handling the knife and looks bad, to boot, although it does help overcome the resistance of the upper clip clamp. The ZT has more whistles — a lock bar stabilizer, a steel lock bar insert.


Overall initial impressions:


I like the ZT a lot better because it’s much nicer to handle and has better ergos. Both knives have excellent fit and finish, with the edge going to the Sebenza. The ZT has better steel and technology.


For the price, the ZT seems to be a better value by a large margin.

 

[bhyde]

Damn why even buy one then? There's people using CNC machines to make micarta grips at $90 a piece, they must be crazy!!! I might not know all the bs you do, but the shop that makes those paid $80k or so for it. Also, several high schools around here have them... so yeah. If a qualified tech can teach highschool students to do it. Still though, if the costs outweigh the profits, I guess they do it for the love of manufacturing and making things that make engineering nerds squeal "omfg look at those tolerances!!!!"
I'm sure after 20+ years of making Sebenzas CRK is just now paying his off. Now I feel sorry for him.

Well, that is the point now isn't it? They are not in it to give away their products...Would you give away your products having paid all that? I would hope not..That is the machine of economics in action..It's the big reason why people have jobs like yourself. You sell those products and that in of itself isn't a bad thing...Without getting too political, manufacturing is GOOD for our economy as we can't be a service industry alone.

I will tell you a secret about CNC's. Not everyone has the capacity to run one...There is a huge difference between the people that set them up and run them than there is a person that sits in front of the machine and cannot interpret the code that is on the monitor.
There is a very steep learning curve to them and to say you know it all just means that you have simply stopped wanting to advance. Also saying that they have them in high schools doesn't mean much now either...They also have Calculus in high school too,..that doesn't mean everyone can do it..Most don't.

Ever think of asking those friends that have CNC's for a job? I'm being totally serious here.. Machinists can make good money.

 

[k_ozdragon]

Actually I have, but dont have the education. Instead of engineering I'm going for a psychology degree. Still considered looking into other ways to machine stuff, such as micarta grips using a router or etc. If they can do art with it, it should be able to outline scales fairly easily enough - at least that's the thought lol. Haven't researched it just yet cuz I'm getting setup to try and do professional sharpening along with learning to Anodize and making sheathes.