GSM Outdoors acquires SOG Knives

[jbmonkey]

Oh , YES I do ! I really don't want a stainless at all in a large , long blade chopper , machete , or sword .

I want maximum toughness at a reasonable cost , that does NOT usually equate to anything stainless , IMO and experience .

I could be wrong , I'm no expert on metallurgy . I have only my own experience to go by .

420hc and aebl are stainless and very tough...very very tough. tougher than high carbon like 1095, a2, 01, 1084, 52100, d2 etc.

don't get lost on stainless cant be tough if heat treated right for toughness.

 

[DocJD]

420hc and aebl are stainless and very tough...very very tough. tougher than high carbon like 1095, a2, 01, 1084, 52100, d2 etc.

don't get lost on stainless cant be tough if heat treated right for toughness.

IDK ? I hope so , for the sake of the future of CS brand's reputation .

But this seems to contradict most of what I've read , unless the hardness suffers greatly ?

I never claimed much knowledge of metallurgy .

I miss the old style proof tests that had some validity for predicting performance .

 

[jbmonkey]

IDK ? I hope so , for the sake of the future of CS brand's reputation .

But this seems to contradict most of what I've read , unless the hardness suffers greatly ?

I never claimed much knowledge of metallurgy .

I miss the old style proof tests that had some validity for predicting performance .

this information came from Dr. Larrins ( a PhD in metallurgy) data. I didnt make it up or guess at it from hitting stuff with a knife in a "test."

no hardness doesn't suffer greatly for these 2 stainless steels I mentioned.

google is your friend on this topic...go and read up and see if what i said is untrue.

 

[jbmonkey]

IDK ? I hope so , for the sake of the future of CS brand's reputation .

But this seems to contradict most of what I've read , unless the hardness suffers greatly ?

I never claimed much knowledge of metallurgy .

I miss the old style proof tests that had some validity for predicting performance .

^borrowed from Dr. Larrins site......

 

[DocJD]

2 stainless steels I mentioned.

Did not include 4034 , however ?

420hc IIRC is somewhat similar , but not the same ?

 

[jbmonkey]

Did not include 4034 , however ?

420hc IIRC is somewhat similar , but not the same ?

he hasn't included that one...but remember I was saying dont count out stainless as not being tough...some are as I showed ya. I mentioned as examples of tough stainless 420hc and aebl.

4034 is

.42 to .50 carbon
12.5 to 14.5 chromium
1.0 manganese

420hc is

0.46 carbon
13.0 chromium
0.30 vanadium
0.40 manganese
0.40 silicon

so close but slightly different.

 

[Joshua J.]

The problem with the new 3V stuff is that it is ridiculously expensive , very unlike the Old CS high value .

This is nothing like the Old CS , which was always high value / performance for price level .

Edit : Also , much of the new 3V seems to be mostly unavailable "vaporware" and /or not competitively priced .

One of the most important hallmarks of the Old CS was the high value / low cost for a given level of performance .

That is largely GONE now .

The 3V blades are priced the same as the San Mai blades, they've always been expensive, but now the materials justify the cost.

Oh , YES I do ! I really don't want a stainless at all in a large , long blade chopper , machete , or sword .

I want maximum toughness at a reasonable cost , that does NOT usually equate to anything stainless , IMO and experience .

I could be wrong , I'm no expert on metallurgy . I have only my own experience to go by .

And as I've pointed out Cold Steel is producing a bunch of 1055 blades, just not these models.
My bet is the people planning products would have assumed there would be as much backlash for 1055 in a Trailmaster as there would be 4034, maybe that assumption is misplaced relative to the "Bladeforums Community", but generally speaking stainless steel is almost always the safer choice.
If they could just do a run of 14C28N I feel like that would be a good compromise, in fact I'd say they should try to keep that steel regularly stocked.
(Looking at the charts 14C28N is significantly tougher than a steel like A2 but also holds an edge better, 14C28N is practically a budget super steel.)

 

[Joshua J.]

And now that I've sung the praises of 14C28N it's great to see 4034 (by Cold Steel) ranking only two places behind in the Cedric & Ada testing chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...L9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=43566811
Which does not mean 4034 is equal to 14C28N or superior to steel types like 440C that rank below, the chart is a list of averages and that just means Cold Steel doesn't skimp on heat treat and this is just one more example demonstrating the futility of judging steel by its chemistry.

I would still love to see 14C28N in some budget Cold Steel blades.

 

[DocJD]

Keeping things in stick lol

Welcome !

Not sure what you mean , unless about the Stickman ?

 

[DocJD]

The 3V blades are priced the same as the San Mai blades, they've always been expensive, but now the materials justify the cost.

And as I've pointed out Cold Steel is producing a bunch of 1055 blades, just not these models.
My bet is the people planning products would have assumed there would be as much backlash for 1055 in a Trailmaster as there would be 4034, maybe that assumption is misplaced relative to the "Bladeforums Community", but generally speaking stainless steel is almost always the safer choice.
If they could just do a run of 14C28N I feel like that would be a good compromise, in fact I'd say they should try to keep that steel regularly stocked.
(Looking at the charts 14C28N is significantly tougher than a steel like A2 but also holds an edge better, 14C28N is practically a budget super steel.)

I'm actually fairly confused right now , but I hope everyone realizes that the theoretical ideal , lab , small batch HT for any given steel formula may differ radically from what you'll actually get in real life from a large scale commercial HT which is more concerned for least cost than performance .

 

[DocJD]

he hasn't included that one...but remember I was saying dont count out stainless as not being tough...some are as I showed ya. I mentioned as examples of tough stainless 420hc and aebl.

4034 is

.42 to .50 carbon
12.5 to 14.5 chromium
1.0 manganese

420hc is

0.46 carbon
13.0 chromium
0.30 vanadium
0.40 manganese
0.40 silicon

so close but slightly different.

I'm actually fairly confused right now , but I hope everyone realizes that the theoretical ideal , lab , small batch HT for any given steel formula may differ radically from what you'll actually get in real life from a large scale commercial HT which is more concerned for least cost than performance .

 

[jbmonkey]

DocJD

not sure what you're asking me Doc, with my post quoted there above?

 

[DocJD]

DocJD

not sure what you're asking me Doc, with my post quoted there above?

More a general statement of my current state of confusion .

I respect Larrin very much , but the actual real world commercial HT for any given steel formula may differ greatly from the ideal potential possible .

 

[jbmonkey]

More a general statement of my current state of confusion .

I respect Larrin very much , but the actual real world commercial HT for any given steel formula may differ greatly from the ideal potential possible .

its well known that 420hc and aebl are very tough stainless steels. its not just the Dr. Larrins testing only.

two examples you might already know..... David Mary has used aebl to make tough knives..

Buck has been using 420hc for awhile now. I even have a limited edition throwing axe Buck made in 420hc....and they have 5160 they could have used and its very tough carbon steel....but the 420hc was tough enough for that. dont get too hung up on all stainless not being tough. many stainless steels are quite tough for pocket knives and fixed blades and have good edge retention.

 

[David Mary]

I even have a limited edition throwing axe Buck made in 420hc....and they have 5160 they could have used and its very tough carbon steel....but the 420hc was tough enough for that.

Very cool! Pic?

 

[DocJD]

its well known that 420hc and aebl are very tough stainless steels. its not just the Dr. Larrins testing only.

two examples you might already know..... David Mary has used aebl to make tough knives..

Buck has been using 420hc for awhile now. I even have a limited edition throwing axe Buck made in 420hc....and they have 5160 they could have used and its very tough carbon steel....but the 420hc was tough enough for that. dont get too hung up on all stainless not being tough. many stainless steels are quite tough for pocket knives and fixed blades and have good edge retention.

Yes , thank you ! I am somewhat aware of these examples .

But doesn't necessarily mean that the new CS 4034 BAK choppers are the same , or better .

The general historical consensus about 4034 is not encouraging , and this is not some brand new super steel .

Maybe CS has nailed the HT and achieved the ideal level of performance ? Never before realized in the market , so far as I can tell .

I can't assume this is true without real world proof .

I actually want this to be real , but desire is not proof .

 

[jbmonkey]

Very cool! Pic?

don't have a David Mary yet but one day I will......

 

[jbmonkey]

Yes , thank you ! I am somewhat aware of these examples .

But doesn't necessarily mean that the new CS 4034 BAK choppers are the same , or better .

The general historical consensus about 4034 is not encouraging , and this is not some brand new super steel .

Maybe CS has nailed the HT and achieved the ideal level of performance ? Never before realized in the market , so far as I can tell .

I can't assume this is true without real world proof .

I actually want this to be real , but desire is not proof .

and they might suck in the end......dont know until I know....but don't fear some stainless of not being tough and even tougher than some carbon steels.....was my real point.

it was less about cs 4034...as i have no idear until we see how they have it done and we try it out.

 

[DocJD]

and they might suck in the end......dont know until I know....but don't fear some stainless of not being tough and even tougher than some carbon steels.....was my real point.

it was less about cs 4034...as i have no idear until we see how they have it done and we try it out.

Exactly !

30 or 40 year ago , I'd probably already have one of the 4034 BAK to do my own brand of proof testing .

I'm more or less past that , unless someone want to bankroll my costs ?

Didn't think so !
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I'm disappointed that the New CS has gone mostly to none meaningful promotional /advertising videos .

Entertaining , but not proof of anything , IMO .

 

[jbmonkey]

Exactly !

30 or 40 year ago , I'd probably already have one of the 4034 BAK to do my own brand of proof testing .

I'm more or less past that , unless someone want to bankroll my costs ?

Didn't think so !
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I'm disappointed that the New CS has gone mostly to none meaningful promotional /advertising videos .

Entertaining , but not proof of anything , IMO .

don't get me wrong...im not digging the 4034 use at all. im digging even less the super high price points for that steel....that I've seen so far listed on some sites. I've seen nothing yet to get me excited or wanting to buy the 4034 stuff.

I was more pointing out that some stainless can be very tough is all really......