Guardians of The Lambsfoot!

[Cutfinger]

Riddle me this. Given how easy it is to sharpen a straight edge, as well as the cutting advantages a straight edge provides, why did some lambsfoot knife owners convert their knives into quasi-spearpoints?



Was it simply carelessness? A lack of sharpening ability? Or did they sharpen their knives this way on purpose?​

Yes, careless sharpening could be the cause of that blade shape. I think it is more likely that the tip broke off once or twice from hard use/misuse and was sharpened, resulting in the almost spear.

Michael

 

[dc50]

I hope that get some useful information from it, Dave! I can relate to the cat -- nice illustration.

Thank you, my friend, poor kitty.

 

[flatblackcapo]

Here's the first ebony lambsfoot I encountered as I made my way through the 7 pages I'd fallen behind. Thanks, FBC!

Cracker Jack showing off mark side when new:

Anytime, Gary, anytime.
This is my favorite pic out of the bunch. Cracker Jack is looking mighty fine, mighty fine indeed.

Okay all you Guardians. What, if any, is the advantage of a Lambsfoot Blade over a Sheepsfoot Blade?

IMHO, the Lambsfoot is more than just the blade shape. It's the total package that makes it such a joy to use.

 

[Pàdruig]

Work has been rather hectic today so I've been playing a bit of catch up on the forums this evening. It has been very pleasant getting caught up on this thread, some very interesting discussion, a number of fresh faces, etc. Aside from making it trickier to keep up here, I am very pleased to see how much attention this thread is getting, likely due to discussions being had elsewhere. Nevertheless, I consider it a boon. The Lambsfoot is so very deserving of the attention and accolades.

Oldest US-made Lambsfoot or Forgery?

In the calm waters between Christmas and New Year, I enjoyed a very interesting private conversation with two of our fellow Guardians, flatblackcapo and @Leslie Tomville , who had both contacted me, separately, regarding a certain knife which was listed on the bay (that's the one near the Big River donn ). The sale was still going on at the time, so we couldn't bring the conversation here then, but with the permission of Kevin and Leslie, I thought some of you folks might be interested in this

I was first contacted by Kevin via PM, who sent me a link to the listing of a 'Vintage Winchester Lambsfoot'. Here are the seller's pics:

Now, we've spent a lot of time looking for a US-made Lambsfoot, so this was potentially big news, but my immediate reaction was that the knife had in fact been made by Joseph Rodgers & Sons of Sheffield. I initially assumed the covers were synthetic, placing it in the 60's or 70's, but if they're horn covers, they'd be earlier, and fit better with the blade etches, so maybe 30's, like the seller described. I was still thinking of the latter period though, when Sheffield had more than one dubious visitor associated with sharp practice in the Transatlantic cutlery trade.

I had used a Rodgers catalogue as a back-ground for a pic posted just a few weeks earlier, and have a lot of Rodgers knives.

Another Rodgers knife previously owned by @glennbad:

Here's the 'Hand Forged' etch on the 'Winchester' knife compared to the one on another Rodgers knife I own:

I know little about Winchester knives, but this really didn't look like any of their knives I'd seen before, and of course it was decidedly odd that they'd use a Lambsfoot pattern, particularly as one of these knives hadn't turned up before. I checked the 2860 pattern number, and it appeared to relate to a 3 1/4" inch Sleeveboard pattern with stag covers. Furthermore, it looked like that number had been cold-stamped on the ebay knife blade. Unfortunately, it was hard to see if the Winchester stamps had been stamped in similar fashion, though they're certainly high enough on the tangs to have been added later without disassembling the original knife.

Kevin found it strange the knife was marked 'Made in the USA', and also wondered if it was a 'parts knife'. I didn't think it was, apart from the Winchester markings, it looks exactly like a stock Rodgers pattern. While I didn't think the knife was valuable, it certainly had curiosity value, and I'd have loved a closer look at those tang-stamps.

The Winchester brand certainly has a convoluted history, and I noted that Bernard Levine said that, long after Winchester ceased to produce their own knives, their German and French distribution agents had Winchester-branded knives made up under contract for distribution within their domestic markets. Rodgers certainly did work for other cutlers, but why would a genuine Winchester agent want to put their mark on a knife, which was so obviously a Rodgers pattern, and a Lambsfoot at that. Presumably, they would have had existing Winchester patterns produced - and they'd have got the pattern number right!

I speculated on why anyone would want to fake this knife. Presumably, any Winchester collector would have spotted it immediately, as would anyone with only a passing knowledge of Sheffield knives, and apart from its interest-value as a fake, it's really a pretty ordinary knife. I wondered if the forger had originally had other plans for the knife, was practicing their technique, or thought they could get a higher price for a Winchester than a Rodgers from that period? But having Winchester stamps made up seems a lot of trouble to go to, unless this knife was simply one of many cheap knives stamped up by the same forger. Have any similar forgeries previously come to light?

While me and Kevin were speculating about the knife, and the ebay price was climing to the $84 it eventually went for, Leslie got in touch to also let me know about the 'Winchester' Lambsfoot, and I recounted my conversation with Kevin. Leslie also did some research about the German-made Winchesters, and opined that this could perhaps be the source of the knife. There was also the possibility that Rodgers paid to use the Winchester name, and made the knife on license. I doubt that though, particularly without the involvement of a third party, they were well in their decline by that point, and a short-minded, skin-flinted company, but they did have an excellent name, both in Europe and America. If Winchester's European agents commissioned the knife, why cold-stamp the pattern number - possibly it was a sample, but why is the pattern number wrong, and why is the knife not better made?

Leslie asked if I thought Joseph Rodgers would have stamped the knife with the Winchester marks, including 'Made in the USA', or if I thought that this was done after manufacture. While I believe this knife is a fake, I certainly do not discount the possibility that Sheffield cutlers were involved, fake stamps have been put on knives and razors in Sheffield for hundreds of years, and during the 1970's, when Rodgers were owned by Imperial, they assembled parts, made in the US by Camillus, and stamped the knives 'Made in England'. So, I don't think it would have been a 'moral' issue, but that still doesn't mean Rodgers were involved of course, nor even any of their out-workers. I further doubt whether anyone in Sheffield would have had the knowledge or wherewithal to start faking Winchester knives, on their own, but it's certainly the case that, even today, you can easily get tang-stamps made up inexpensively, with whatever you want on them, in Sheffield. A travelling American cutlery enthusiast of the type that used to visit Sheffield in the 70's could perhaps have accomplished it, or a British collector with some knowledge of the Winchester mark. However, why select a pattern Winchester were not associated with, and err further with a false pattern number? If these were faked in Sheffield in this way, presumably a few of them would have been made, but none seem to have turned up apart from this one. Could it be that someone had got hold of a Winchester stamp, perhaps in Europe, and just used it on whatever inexpensive knives they could find? But this knife could have been faked anywhere.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone we know ever comes across this knife, it'd be great to have a proper look at those tang-stamps. Lots of speculation, so what do you think folks? Thanks to Kevin and Leslie for bringing this knife to my attention, and for the great chat

Edit - I have to say, looking at those Winchester stamps again, I do think they look suspicious.

Fascinating post, Jack! I enjoyed every minute of it. Though it is rather beyond me as to why someone would take the pains to fake something that is so seemingly mundane, I cannot but feel sorry for the unfortunate guy/gall that likely got duped... Like Ron, I also have seen the plastic covered Winchester "Lambsfoot" knives. Odd things... They never appealed to me and the price is somewhat absurd. You can find them by searching: Winchester Sheepfoot.

Here are a couple of pics that I swiped off the bay.

I hope that a few of you remember Arthur, the Right Lambsfoot Greg @WhittlinAway whittled for me a while back...

He sits on my desk, but I have been thinking about sending him on a journey in the style of Earl and Pearl. He's very dear to me, so I would only want him to go to stay with Guardians of Good-standing who've been on The Porch awhile. What do you think folks, anyone up for this, maybe have a prize for the post that gets the most likes?

A wonderful idea, Jack, and I certainly would not be opposed to playing host. However, seeing as though the wee lamb has such sentimental value to you, I worry over the potential risks.


Fodderwing Dwight, best wishes regarding your surgery and subsequent recovery!


I had not the time or the ability to take proper pictures today (rotten weather...). Please forgive the recycled picture. Though it isn't too old.

 

[dc50]

IMHO, the Lambsfoot is more than just the blade shape. It's the total package that makes it such a joy to use.

Most excellent.

 

[donn]

David, we had a major snowstorm in September and that was it. Since then there has been very little snow and a lot of the day temps in Calgary have reached +10C
Today is the first time I believe that the daytime high is below at -8 C

Crikey that sounds warm for you. The UK is at a higher latitude but thanks to our tepid maritime climate our winters are a lot less...eventful. I always picture most of Canada under feet of snow for weeks on end through the winter

donn interesting beverage, is it sweet like Bailey's Irish Cream?

Thank you David. I very much enjoyed the links to Trevor Ablett. Wonderful vids of him at work.
I was wondering the same thing about the ginger cream. Like Bailey's or Carolans?

Yip chaps pretty much like a ginger flavoured Baileys. It's made in Scotland but I buy it from Henshelwoods deli in York, one of those quaint little shops York does so well.

Time is the enemy of all sentient beings,

Not with my joints. To quote Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark. "It's not the age...it's the mileage..."

We also got a "pub sign" for "The Quiet Woman".

There's a pub of that name in a small town on the edge of West Yorkshire. I was out hiking that way, and thought I'd call in for a pint. I have to say, it may well be the worst pub in Yorkshire, and the worst beer I've ever tasted in a pub anywhere! They should sell the sign, and burn the pub down!

Sounds a bit extreme Jack I may have to track that one down...
There's a "Quiet Woman" in Earl Sterndale in Derbyshire which is most certainly not like that . Typically of course, I can't find my photo of the pub sign so here's one I snaffled off tintaweb.

https://whatpub.com/pubs/HIP/76/quiet-woman-earl-sterndale

I've actually only really got up but it may be this one.

 

[Half/Stop]

Work has been rather hectic today so I've been playing a bit of catch up on the forums this evening. It has been very pleasant getting caught up on this thread, some very interesting discussion, a number of fresh faces, etc. Aside from making it trickier to keep up here, I am very pleased to see how much attention this thread is getting, likely due to discussions being had elsewhere. Nevertheless, I consider it a boon. The Lambsfoot is so very deserving of the attention and accolades.



Fascinating post, Jack! I enjoyed every minute of it. Though it is rather beyond me as to why someone would take the pains to fake something that is so seemingly mundane, I cannot but feel sorry for the unfortunate guy/gall that likely got duped... Like Ron, I also have seen the plastic covered Winchester "Lambsfoot" knives. Odd things... They never appealed to me and the price is somewhat absurd. You can find them by searching: Winchester Sheepfoot.

Here are a couple of pics that I swiped off the bay.

A wonderful idea, Jack, and I certainly would not be opposed to playing host. However, seeing as though the wee lamb has such sentimental value to you, I worry over the potential risks.


Fodderwing Dwight, best wishes regarding your surgery and subsequent recovery!


I had not the time or the ability to take proper pictures today (rotten weather...). Please forgive the recycled picture. Though it isn't too old.

Thanks for posting the Checkerboard Lambsfoot photos Dylan! I shared these with Jack on Monday evening and he told me it would be okay to post them in the thread. Something I had not got around to doing yet. Today I’ve got another of my wee Sambars!

 

[JTB_5]

Carrying my lambsfoot today (sorry for no pictures). Hope everyone has a great day!

 

[screened porch]

Yes, careless sharpening could be the cause of that blade shape. I think it is more likely that the tip broke off once or twice from hard use/misuse and was sharpened, resulting in the almost spear.

Michael

Is it terribly uncommon for a sheepfoot to get rounded off? If you're doing most of your cutting near the point, you'll get more wear near the point.
And, as I predict Jack will allude to soon, people used to use one knife seriously for a long time.

 

[Jack Black]

Riddle me this. Given how easy it is to sharpen a straight edge, as well as the cutting advantages a straight edge provides, why did some lambsfoot knife owners convert their knives into quasi-spearpoints?

Was it simply carelessness? A lack of sharpening ability? Or did they sharpen their knives this way on purpose?​

I don't think that knife was converted into a quasi-spearpoint. It's an old knife that has been badly sharpened. Here's what it looked like when I found it on a market stall. We rarely know the stories behind old knives, but it clearly didn't have an easy life, probably had some kid sharpening it on a kerb-stone







Here's another Lambsfoot, which looks to have had its tip broken at some point. Paul Mason had it as a lad Losing the tip really spoils a Lambsfoot, but this is the most common 'repair' I think (on Sheepsfoot blades too). I don't think I've seen one that has been converted into a Spearpoint, rather the straight-edge seems to have generally been retained

Posted this in Beverages thread, but figured it might fit in here too. (My lambsfoot sure works up a thirst!)

Nice pic Vince Nice ale too

As a stockman proponent, I might be as big a sheepfoot fancier as you'll find about. When I got my RALF, I was highly impressed with the ergonomics in both use and the pocket, and just the outright joy in using my lambfoot. Just a terrific pattern. As they say in boxing, "He punches above his weight!"

Here's RALF enjoying a bit of sunshine before this weekend's snow storm.

RALF is definitely a contender my friend, nice to read your enthusiasm for the pattern

Work has been rather hectic today so I've been playing a bit of catch up on the forums this evening. It has been very pleasant getting caught up on this thread, some very interesting discussion, a number of fresh faces, etc. Aside from making it trickier to keep up here, I am very pleased to see how much attention this thread is getting, likely due to discussions being had elsewhere. Nevertheless, I consider it a boon. The Lambsfoot is so very deserving of the attention and accolades.



Fascinating post, Jack! I enjoyed every minute of it. Though it is rather beyond me as to why someone would take the pains to fake something that is so seemingly mundane, I cannot but feel sorry for the unfortunate guy/gall that likely got duped... Like Ron, I also have seen the plastic covered Winchester "Lambsfoot" knives. Odd things... They never appealed to me and the price is somewhat absurd. You can find them by searching: Winchester Sheepfoot.

Here are a couple of pics that I swiped off the bay.

A wonderful idea, Jack, and I certainly would not be opposed to playing host. However, seeing as though the wee lamb has such sentimental value to you, I worry over the potential risks.


Fodderwing Dwight, best wishes regarding your surgery and subsequent recovery!


I had not the time or the ability to take proper pictures today (rotten weather...). Please forgive the recycled picture. Though it isn't too old.

Thanks Dylan, and thanks for posting those odd-looking Japanese-made Winchester knives. I had never seen them before Ron Half/Stop sent me some pics the other night. I was surprised by the prices they are offered at Great pic my friend, and that looks like a lovely drop

Sounds a bit extreme Jack I may have to track that one down...
There's a "Quiet Woman" in Earl Sterndale in Derbyshire which is most certainly not like that . Typically of course, I can't find my photo of the pub sign so here's one I snaffled off tintaweb.

https://whatpub.com/pubs/HIP/76/quiet-woman-earl-sterndale

I've actually only really got up but it may be this one.

It's in Slaithwaite David, makes the Slaughtered Lamb look like a friendly inn, and I bet the beer was a lot better there! Excellent pic

Thanks for posting the Checkerboard Lambsfoot photos Dylan! I shared these with Jack on Monday evening and he told me it would be okay to post them in the thread. Something I had not got around to doing yet. Today I’ve got another of my wee Sambars!

Smashing Ron

Early afternoon here, and my internet connection is awful I'm carrying this feller again

 

[Jack Black]

Is it terribly uncommon for a sheepfoot to get rounded off? If you're doing most of your cutting near the point, you'll get more wear near the point.

I don't think it is, and while it's a strong design, I've seen plenty where the tip has been broken off, presumably when the knife has been dropped or misused

Most commonly, old Lambsfoot blades are sharpened to retain their straight edge, with old well-used knives ending up looking like a punch!

 

[Half/Stop]

Smashing Ron

Early afternoon here, and my internet connection is awful I'm carrying this feller again

Thanks Jack! Smashing indeed my friend! Some of the best Ironwood I’ve seen!

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks Jack! Smashing indeed my friend! Some of the best Ironwood I’ve seen!

Thanks mate

 

[dc50]

Early afternoon here, and my internet connection is awful I'm carrying this feller again

Ironwood tough like the Viking, Ironside

 

[Cutfinger]

These are before and after pictures of my regrinding of the primary bevel.

I used the edge itself as a reference, and removed what material there was that made up the uneven secondary bevel, all the way back to the spine, stopping just short of a 'total edge'. The blade wasn't straight when I got it: it is now.

Cutting performance of the blade now with such a small secondary bevel, is excellent!




Michael

 

[Jack Black]

View attachment 1051484

These are before and after pictures of my regrinding of the primary bevel.

I used the edge itself as a reference, and removed what material there was that made up the uneven secondary bevel, all the way back to the spine, stopping just short of a 'total edge'. The blade wasn't straight when I got it: it is now.

Cutting performance of the blade now with such a small secondary bevel, is excellent!


View attachment 1051492

Michael

Is the first pic how the blade was when you got it?! It certainly looks a lot better now, and I'm sure it cuts a lot better. Nice work

 

[Cutfinger]

In the before picture the two secondary bevels form a perfectly straight line at the edge, for the first time.
Previous to that, the secondary bevels were even, but followed a warped blade. (as recieved new)

I lived with the wide and uneven (but straight) sharpening bevel for a long time, but the knife was a pain to sharpen, and I wasn't happy with the performance. The knife spent several months in a drawer.....and I stopped hanging out on the guardians thread .... But I missed the fine folks here , so I spent some time gettin' the Lambsfoot in tip top shape.


Michael

 

[Fodderwing]

Dwight, best wishes regarding your surgery and subsequent recovery

Thank you Dylan.

Yip chaps pretty much like a ginger flavoured Baileys. It's made in Scotland but I buy it from Henshelwoods deli in York, one of those quaint little shops York does so well

A quaint and beautiful building. David to the right of the building protruding up out of the sidewalk there is a black fixture about 4 ft high. Is that perhaps some type of valve connecting to the water system?

 

[tmd_87]

Patina on this one is amazing. With the talk of the 2019 Blade Forum knife possibly being made in Sheffield is very interesting.

 

[donn]

I don't think that knife was converted into a quasi-spearpoint. It's an old knife that has been badly sharpened. Here's what it looked like when I found it on a market stall. We rarely know the stories behind old knives, but it clearly didn't have an easy life, probably had some kid sharpening it on a kerb-stone







Here's another Lambsfoot, which looks to have had its tip broken at some point. Paul Mason had it as a lad Losing the tip really spoils a Lambsfoot, but this is the most common 'repair' I think (on Sheepsfoot blades too). I don't think I've seen one that has been converted into a Spearpoint, rather the straight-edge seems to have generally been retained



It's in Slaithwaite David, makes the Slaughtered Lamb look like a friendly inn, and I bet the beer was a lot better there! Excellent pic

Early afternoon here, and my internet connection is awful I'm carrying this feller again

What a cracking old knife. Some real character to it; and it looks a lot thinner in than my twin-bladed lambsfoot.
You keep teasing us all with these great shots of the ironwood. Looking forward to receiving mine more and more

A quaint and beautiful building. David to the right of the building protruding up out of the sidewalk there is a black fixture about 4 ft high. Is that perhaps some type of valve connecting to the water system?

View attachment 1051512

Hi Dwight, no sorry it's a bollard; a traffic control measure. An infestation of pretty much every town and city in the realm . Most of our towns and cities have now been pedestrenised and those things help keep the cars out.
Saying that, your not far wrong. A lot of our historic cities have enhanced fire suppression networks, in comparison to say our modern cities like Manchester or Sheffield.
Many of the buildings are made of wood, mainly oak, (all the buildings in that photo are), wattle and daub and there all tightly packed together in narrow streets; a fire control nightmare. For example Chester (a Roman city in the north-west of England) has a historic network of shopping arcades called "The Rows" which are all nearly 500 years old and constructed from wood, so the fire control strategy is very comprehensive.
York is no different. In 1984 a bolt of lightening hit York Minster, the 12/13th century cathedral church.

I've been told that after that little adventure the water supply around York city centre was uprated and the Minster itself apparently has one of the most comprehensive fire suppression systems installed in any building in the world.

What's the tractor?