GUNTING: it will continue in some form

B

BRAM

Joined
Mar 9, 1999
Messages
1,028
Well Spyderco..I'm sorry that you decided to discountinue the Gunting as an official Spyderco knife..I think thats a tactical error but hey I'm not Spyderco...I'm sorry it never got the run of 5 years as discussed to make a go of it ...or to see it go into offical required carry or the backing it deserved,....but it was made to great specs..
The SPYDERCO Gunting is one of the best made edged tools out there and will continue to be...its GREAT!
I'm happy you have said here in print that it will continue to be made for us as needed..
Thank you Spyderco..Appreciate the support!

As for big runs? big contracts? where are the big agencies? acceptence?
Hmm even contact is hard and everyone wants to be the Tactical answer to badguys after 911..its a wide open market with lots of BS respnses and claims..
Spyderco is not GAO accepted so it needs to be put through the mill of testing..
Folks to be required carry is a serious thing..its not just "OH we like that tool or its looks..or don't worry its going to work.." it needs to be documented ..it needs to be demonstrated in real time and under close supervision...under set circumstances...
it needs to pass liability testing..endurance testing...NOOOOO spyderco has no liability testing of that kind...and even if it did it couldn't be accepted by any using agency..Like the Fox guarding a hen house or any industry policing itself for problems..
totally unacceptable..
They , the agencies need to see limits of usage, damage done in useage, liability of usage, and moreso, is is worthy of SOP on Departmental training? is it Teachable? can it cover the force continuum? can it be rescue, EDC and SDR at any time?
It takes time and a group of small users doing daily chores and duties to compare to the regular units to see differences in performance, liability and results...
The Gunting is in use-evaluation in several areas,,
Afghanistan, Iraq, Canada, EU, Mexico and of course the good ole USA..
its being tested as Federal Carry, State Carry, Military Carry, Security and Anti Terror carry..even corrections usage & carry....
All have long deep evaluations..

Its taken out insurgents..protected Generals, kept Islamic terrorists in line in jail and in prisoner of war camps..
Its taken out Drug dealers and street gang leaders.
Its protected and saved lines in security service and in LE regular duty..
There is no SOP on carrying edged tools to be used on human beings..no training programs.. no Departmental OK..Shooting is easier to digest..Enter the Gunting a full force continuum tool.. Options galore.
We will get that SOP to carry
We have training programs..written and DVD...Train the trainer
Learn in 6 teach in 12...yes hours!

Thanks again Spyderco for the great tool..
No one could make it better..
I suggest that Spyderco sell the CRMIPTs in stock DIRECTLY to the agencies that request them..They can deal with the agencies
I see right now its in several current EU magazines as the Best tool ever designed for LE..

be safe

Bram

As I said the Gunting will continue..
I just finished teaching a 4 day instructor camp for LE & Military..et al...
Working on the new military training...
There's still our ongoing 2 day CRMIPT classes @ the Academy..www.s2institute.com
and our Learn in 6 teach in 12 seminars..www.cssdsc.com
Soft Stix is now making a full contact soft training version open & closed of the Gunting to add to the stable of GUnting training tools.
TAK Knives has added a bit harder version of plastic for the next level up training tool..of course in open & closed positions..
WHY is that important?
Training is the key to acceptance on a tool. The more training tools available, the more types of training available the better it is for the agencies that use it..
Training makes it work..not the tool..
Owning a firearm is pointless without going to the range..
Look for a "marking" Gunting training tool soon as well..
 
I am not a well known forumie like most of the people who post here nor have a reputation such as Bram has built in his career. I do feel a need to share an opinion based on a personal observation level of the knife in question. I just recently acquired one in a trade though I've not been able to handle a trainer or crmipt only the live variant of this design. Perhaps I lack any knowledge for a comment on pros and cons of the design, however, I do feel knowledgable enough to speak from a corrections officer point of view and somewhat from a law enforcement view in general. A knife like this being used in law enforcement or even worse in a correctional facility would be very questionable based on current civil issues and use of force. I do not see a problem for this knife in military use though a correctional facility civilian or military would be hard pressed to justify the use of any variant of this knife. I believe that there would be a lot more issues to justify in cutting someone in self defense in a civilian setting either out on the street or in a facility. The use of force is a serious issue with law enforcement agencies at local, state, and federal levels. Using an edged tool sharp or unsharp for defense or restraint plays a lot in the grey area of what can and cannot be done to a person who has civil rights. I would be very concerned for officer safety in a correctional facility if a tool such as this were used in daily activities the potential for injury to the inmate as well as the officer is too great a risk to imply that this knife should be standard issue. Anyhow, I thought that some comment on this matter from a different perspective would help spark some needed discussion of the issue at hand which is wether or not the knife or tool should have been discontinued or rather made available only at the request of the above named or approved agencies seeking to have it issued as a standard issue equipment. Perhaps Spyderco made a move based not on wether it was a good or bad tool but rather on wether there could be some civil liabilities at hand being the producer of the knife...such as some gun cases in the past. I may have missed the mark on this though it doesn't take a genius to realize there are people out there just dying to jump at the chance to make some money off of a lawsuit or the possibility of an out of court settlement wether justified or not. It is the world we live in now a days and companies do have a tendency to shift priorities based upon such possibilities. Anyhow, I hope to get a chance to handle the knife more and see if my personal opinion will change or stay the same. Thanks again to Bram for a well designed knife and Spyderco for collaborating and producing it for him, as well as, the Spyderco junkies! :p
 
If you are worried about the Gunting being seen or even labelled as questionable I highly suggest the CRMIPT. No way that thing is questionable because it is not Lethal. It is and I believe design to be one of if not they prefect LEO tool.

For Civs like myelf the trainer alone is good for SD, however a live blade can double as a utility knife...and you can always carry both... :D

Kudzu If you haven't visited CSSDSC.com yet...I think you should. It offers pretty much all the info on the Gunting,Drone, and CRMIPT you'll need. If you have the time and money and there is a seminar in your area I highly suggest you go to it and see first hand just how well and effective the Gunting (or the other 2 tools for that matter) can be.

I like the idea of discussing it though. :)
 
Kudzu,
I've shown the Drone to members of Broward ,Dade,& FHP,NOT ONE, said I would be arrested for carrying as for using,they all said SD,NO,IT'S NOT A WEAPON!! I should be at the Tampa Gun show selling Guntings in Dec. feel free to drop by & perhaps I can help you understand the advantages.I'm no pro,but I think I can help!
Be safe,
Jim
 
Kudzu74 makes some excellent points. And they relate, almost directly, to some the things Bram said at the beginning of this thread.

There are few, if any, LEO organizations of any kind that have a SOP for using a live blade in the force continuum. CSSD/SC does not suggest this is a good idea. We would prefer to see the Drone or the CRIMPT in the hands of the LEO good guys, for exactly the reasons that Kudzu stated. Liability, threat of use by a bad guy on a good guy, etc. This goes back to all the testing Bram mentioned. There is a long way to go, but it is slowly being done.

As for using a live blade in self defence. Legally, it is no different then using a gun, they are both considered lethal tools. You have to have the same legal ducks in a row. You need to be able to prove Ability, Opportunity, Intent and Preclusion. Where it is different is in the ease of carry, you don't need a CCW to carry a pocket knife. And, it is slightly easier to control the what, where and how you do damage to your attacker. (Notice, I did not say it was EASY, we are talking about a fight here. In the heat of battle it is very difficult to have absolute control over anything.) Knives, especially smaller ones with limited length and weight, are by their nature not going to do as much damage as a larger "fighting knife" or gun might.


On another note, Kudzu. What inspired you to pick a handle after one of the most hated, hard to eradicate weeds, ever cursed by gardeners planet wide? :D

Lunumbra
 
Hey, I'm glad no one so far has taken my discussion the wrong way. In the past, I have been mistaken by other forumies on different matters of opinion. Anyhow, I am glad to see some positive discussion on this matter and would love to hear Sal or someone from Spyderco chime in here. I just hope legal matters don't have something to withhold the discussion of it being taken out of the line-up for now. As for the question on my ID...there is a post somewhere that I believe Sal asked me about the name. I like it for just that reason...it continues to always grow and adapt to the environment its put into wether here in the south or abroad. Perhaps the next Spyderco fixed blade can be like a small machute? <--- dubbed 'Kudzu'. Yah, Sal can put a Green G10 or micarta handle on some H1 steel with a wicked blade shape! Why not...sailors, campers, leos, military, & others have their knives why not a gardner with a little overgrowth! :p
 
The G was and is great steel.

The only steel I never use and never carry, but still have it and never sold it away or gave it away because it's a work of art in it's own right.

Superb design, the ultimate in use of various levels of force and ability and potential to respond to the flow and uncertainty of events.....great knife.

Just beautiful.
 
gunt.jpg


Hi Bram :) ,
nice to hear, that will continue!
 
Its taken out insurgents..protected Generals, kept Islamic terrorists in line in jail and in prisoner of war camps..
Its taken out Drug dealers and street gang leaders.
Click to expand...
Can you back up these claims or is this hyperbole?
I certainly would hate to be required to carry a folder in the field, or to be told which folder to carry.
 
Grover_Cephas said:
Simona,

Where did that plainedge S30V gunting come from? I thought they only came in combo-edge.
Click to expand...

Hi,
i know i know ... this is good Gunting, S30V PE!!, i have read somewhere at BF, that 500pieces was made only...
Its winning price, this one, really! :p
 
Will P, seeing that it comes from Bram, I would suspect that he can back it up. He has posted here for some time and I have never seen him say something that he cannot back up.
 
I really can't believe I have to go back to 1999 and recap the same discussions..but that's life I guess...so here goes. Some of you might be new to this and my attitudes but others..its old hat.
Read this with a touch of sarcasm, a touch of the cynical and a touch of laughter..not serious recapping...,
I design training and tools to be used..PERIOD
I have for a long time now..
I design tools and training that work real time with gross motor skill allowance..both folders and fixed blades
Spyderco makes me a GREAT product. its takes use and abuse and keeps ticking..ticking off the bad guys.
The Spyderco Gunting is a tank..you can't break it and it works like GLOCK being shot by Chuck Taylor..FOREVER..zillionof rounds or openings..
I teach whereever and whomever I get sent to teach..here and abroad..
as long as they are the good guys..

Will P.
no offense to you...but?
you'd hate to be told what folder to carry? I guess that only applies if you're a plain old civilian...Where are you from? No you don't have to tell me..that's a rhetorical question..
you'd hate what? being told what clothes to wear like a uniform? what shoes to wear...llike Military issue boots? what rifle to carry? ..only what we issue you..what sidearm to carry,again whatever we issue you... what knife to carry, hmm like a KaBar or the new Ontario USMC bayonete -fighting knife?
Folder? We just signed a contract YOU WILL CARRY This...what pack to use?..what training you'll be given..?
you HAVE NO CHOICE...
That's life in the real world Mr Will...
By Branch of Military service or City -State of LE service you do not have a choice overall..There's the issue of SOP..and liability and consistency of training...
And if its Departmental, Branch, Military or DOD directive , whatever...you will carry and use as stated not as you wish...

As for hyperbole..not needed...
Why you doubt it works?
Why you doubt its getting used to save lives?
You doubt its done off bad guys?
its simple fact..Teams are using the tool..they are using my folders and fixed blades..
The tools are in use and are being used to do the jobs they are designed for..
What's hard to see about that?
As several "secret squirrel" members-Instructors of CENTCOM & SOCOM Security have said
" Damn you Bram, we now have a pile of knives and tools we'll NEVER carry again because of you and the damn Gunting...WHY? cause it works real time!"

As to the other post of not used in Corrections or LE situations due to legal concerns et al? Wrong.
As for that being Spydercos out in its decision to "officially discountinue"
no its not..Theres no liability or use issue..no legallity of usage..
Discountinued officially to be made exclusively for me is a corportate decision..it has nothing to do with liability or usage issues..
its between me and Spyderco and the details are not for public discussion..
Both Spyderco and I will be immensely happy when it becomes SOP and required carry for whichever department falls in line first..
Why it might become offical again in that case..ROFL...
It works great in corrections ..CRMIPTs DRONES.. Single use SDR CRMIPTS...
Being tested and used..
Its not a lethal tool @ all. its a non lethal tool and if its a real Gunting with Edge its a full force continuum tool. Its like Officer Pickles said in his review its like a leatherman tool..its a non lethal pliers till I purposely put away the pliers and pull out the blade...ONLY THEN does it have lethality..When I return the blade to its safe position, its back to being a plain old non lethal pliers...
Its not judged by "This is a knife mentality.."
just like Leatherman necessitated a new catagory of tools..so is the Gunting..
Can't deal withthat? well get over it..
Its an old issue.
As stated by LE testers in writing: "the Spyderco Bram Frank CRMIPT might just be the best less than lethal tool ever designed for Law Enforcement.."
As stated by LE writers and testers..
"The Spyderco Gunting might just be the only argument for LE to carry an edged tool."

As i said its under going testing in all fields to appease the almighty liatgation crews..Where and when? not open for public discussion..Thats reality.
I'm not alolowed to check in..WHY? because I might be trying to bias a judge or tester...but its underway...

its usage is doing great..

It just takes time...

be safe
Bram

PS: I'm an equal opportunity insulter..I hope I insulted no one in specific and my apologies if I did..You want to find who said what? do a search for it..
its publics stuff...
 
As I understand it, knives aren't used too often in combat by either the military or LEOs. So I am a bit dubious about the "taken out insurgents... drug dealers and street gang leaders" stuff even though teams are using your knife.

As for the issue things, infantry men already get issued an escalating force full spectrum weapon: the rifle. You can hit someone with it if you need to or you can shoot them.

While I am not questioning the worth of your knife to many people, the chance that a soldier will need to use a knife in combat, especially a folder, is extroidinarily low. Is he going to drop his rifle to use a knife? Wouldn't a bayonet be much better? If he needs a laast resort weapon, would he be better off with a fixed blade? The Gunting is an excellent folder, but what if it's covered in mud or sand? Any knife an infantry man has is going to be used almost all the time for utility purposes.

We are issued uniforms for a reason. We can select between different types of boots for a reason, and given weapons based on MOS. Some people get the M9 because they supposedly need it - and let me tell you, all the logic behind restricting sidearms does nothing to keep soldiers from being VERY unhappy about it. Or from being unhappy with the M9 for that matter.

But there is absolutely no reason to be issued a standard folding knife. SOP is, as it ought to be, based on necessity. Should troops be issued official underwear? Razors? Playing cards? Toothbrushes? Some of these items are very useful, but why should they be SOP?

Mr. Bram, that is the way are. Don't get me wrong, I would be ecstatic if I were issued a Gunting. If soldiers who had no idea how to get a good knife were issued a Gunting army wide, the would be mind blowing. If we were trained in its use, even better! I'm simply doubting that it will happen, and strongly, strongly doubting that it will ever be SOP to carry a specific folder or that it would be desirable.
 
Will P. said:
As I understand it, knives aren't used too often in combat by either the military or LEOs. So I am a bit dubious about the "taken out insurgents... drug dealers and street gang leaders" stuff even though teams are using your knife.
Click to expand...

It's been done...documented. No need for for you to believe it. The individuals actually using the tools/training are the ones that really count.
 
If the claim is "This knife has been used to kill people" and then when asked to confirm this one takes the "the ones who really need to know, know" routine, it just seems like hyperbole. As to belief, if you want me to purchase a product, I need to believe in the claims attributed to it. I know, I know, you dont care whether I purchase it or not........

I daresay that the LE community will never adopt in mass a lethal tool than can be used less-lethally or a less-lethal tool that can intentionally be lethal.. There is just too much marging for error. There are already enough occurances of people being hurt or killed, or not, when tools malfunction or are improperly applied.

The question that will be asked is "how is this tool superior to what is already in place?" So, how is this tool superior to what is already in place? I already have numerous less-lethal and lethal tools at my disposal, why add this one.

My questions are largely rhetorical, as this knife is going out of production, but my point stands.
 
Many of you are wrong...so sorry..wrong track..is this cyber condition or what???
This inane fixation on this tools or any tools alledged lethality..
all this fixation on its hyperbole by statement..
All because I said its being used real time to save lives? because its really in use in both forms full force continuum and non lethal?
Well I guess we''ll see.
All the guys using it are actualy in mass hypnosis and never used it at al..
"you will think it works..you will think it works"....
maybe its all FX..
no one uses the tool..its never been used..
Why does it suprise me that people doubt its in use..?
After this time I thought we were past this..

WHY add a non lethal tool or a full force continuum tool? because it works..NO theres no margin for error..
it cannot deploy accicdentally..especially the CRMIPT..
Why carry a new tool that actually limits liability?
because it works..its easy to teach and use.
Cyber talk is cheap..
its in the LE reviews..its in the Military reviews..
give me a break...
LE will accept it more and more..as well as the Security Teams et al that I teach.... more departments and teams all the time here and abroad..
As I said full testing of any tool takes time..
It will be SOP and required carry ...whether Spyderco offically makes it or only for me..thats a minor point that effects nothing

You are absolutely correct..I don't care if you like it or hate it or don't buy it..

be safe

Bram
 
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