GUNTING: it will continue in some form

sendec

Banned
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
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If it cannot be used incorrectly why the CRIMPT and Drone? "Cannot deploy accidently?" Why the warnings about practicing inertial openings with a live blade?

I have no agenda here. Wonder tools come and wonder tools go. Remember the Handler baton, and the break-front holster? Lets wait 10 years or so and then have this conversation. We'll either be butt deep in Guntings, or we wont.


Any idea of how many of these Spyderco sold?
 

BOK

Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
2,413
sendec said:
If it cannot be used incorrectly why the CRIMPT and Drone? "Cannot deploy accidently?"

You can't train or practise safely with a live blade thus the need for a drone. During training you can 'cut' with the drone but not the live.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
504
Send,
Main reason is cause YOU WILL BE CUT!!No??Well there are people that did not listen,if I can do it with a Drone "I"can do it with a LIVE BLADE.WRONG!!Yes, I know this for a fact!
Be safe,
Jim
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
442
It makes me sad to see the Gunting go out of Spyderco's production line. It's like discontinuing the Endura. It truly is like nothing else, a design based solely on form following function without regards for preconceived notions of what it should be or what it should look like.

It is pure human ingenuity; I dare say my Gunting has a soul.

Is it flawless? No, but there is so much to learn from it.

I am pleased to hear that the Gunting is not dead however. I'd be most interested if it becomes available again. The plain edge Gunting is somewhere in the top 5 of my favorite knives, probably edged out by my Supertool and Cybertool. (The other two would be the Endura and the Dodo, but I've no idea how I could bring myself to rank any one of the three Spydercos over the other.)
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
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Am I the only one here that thinks this is going a lil' overboard in the wrong direction? I though my approach to the discussion was rather open-minded and friendly to the whole matter of the Gunting's use and removal from the main Spyderco line-up. I've now seen several responses to other posts in this thread being border-line confrontational. Perhaps someone should set the mood for either a more desirable discussion of the issue or just close the thread. I think its ridiculous for a discussion like this to continue down the path its going, but I'd like to get in one smart arse comment at least on the whole matter. Your just blowing smoke up our arse if you think a gun and baton will be replaced by a folding knife for self-defense because I think if it comes down to it...I'll either fire or smack before I would stab or POKE! Sorry, I just had to say it! :p
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
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The Gunting, rightfully, has many, many loyal fans. Mr. Bram, of course, believes strongly in his system. This leads people to be more confrontational and defensive than they really need to be. I was just curious and wanted some answers.

steve22595 said:
It's been done...documented. No need for for you to believe it. The individuals actually using the tools/training are the ones that really count.

Do you know where I can find documentation? I wasn't calling anyone out, Steve, I am actually interested in the knife and its future. :eek: . As for the sarcastic latter half of your response, I was thinking about military applications rather than LE, so it is highly relevant to me. Your remark is kind of hard to understand. Are you trying to say that I cannot possibly evaluate the utility of a Gunting until the Army issues me one? Even though I own one already? Perhaps you misunderstood the nature of my interest.
 
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Sep 23, 2002
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241
Damn..I'm too late to the draw...

Damn you guys that know about the CRMIPT!!

Damn you BOK!!

:D
 
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Sep 23, 2002
Messages
241
sendec said:
If it cannot be used incorrectly why the CRIMPT and Drone? "Cannot deploy accidently?" Why the warnings about practicing inertial openings with a live blade?

Why don't you let someone with a live blade train on you...then you'll find out why there is a drone...
 
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May 12, 2001
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as far as the 'g' being adopted by the military/LEO's/etc only time will tell, FWIW i have always thought its role was more in the civilian self defense arena myself, but what do i know?

as far as being discontinued i would imagine it was 'cuz they werent selling well,

imho in tx at least once the 'tool' leaves your pocket in a 'situation' it becomes a weapon not a tool.

nothing against the 'g' or bram, its a good system imho, which does what its designed to.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2000
Messages
2,981
Sifu,
Interesting reply!! As for NOT selling well,imagine little advertisement,little backing!! Bet the only time you have seen them in mags,are when Bram is showing them .I've had LEO'S looking in Miami,when I sold out,went to one of the LEO stores asked to buy a G & was told WE don't know what THAT is,never saw one ,who makes it?? Meanwhile ALL of Bram's people spread the word & sell them as fast as we get them!!
Be safe,
Jim
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
260
I sure wish there would be a rational discussion on the Gunting for once.

I've bought two. I sold one that was a combo edge; mine's PE S30V.

Pros:
-Stong
-Good steel
-Good company making it
-Can be used as a fistload or tool
-Strong, strong lock

Cons:
-Not easy, uncomfortable to carry as a "clipit"
-"Must" take classes and buy tapes and buy drone to "get" the "system"
-Scares the sheeple
-Clip and clip placement suck; must use sheath- more cost
-Spyderco can't sell enough of them to make the knife profitable
-Use of force logic only favors military use, but Gunting snags on their equipment
-Too many moves in the "system"; hammer & stab good- flowery ninjitsu that's mis-labled as "gross motor skills" bad.

-Would I buy one again? NO
-I'm I glad Spyderco made it? Yes
-Do I wish Bram wouldn't ramble? Yes
-Should Bram become a knife maker and do it himself? Yes

What would have made it more successful to "covert special ops death squads"?
-Black blade and clip
-Change spoon clip to regular clip and place higher
-Lower height and profile of horn on blade; not eliminate, lower.
-Lengthen blade to fit handle

"Then it's not a Gunting". Well, yes, but you could call it "selling".

Flame away, or not. I don't like kool-aid.

Finally, thanks for being a great company Spyderco.

bob7
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
504
Bob,
Curious!! How much instruction have YOU taken with the G?? Bram rambles?? Flame away?? Why,you do a interesting job on your ownself! Tapes,instuction,fancy moves,Here's a shock,TO LEARN YOU HAVE TO BE TAUGHT!!Is it for everyone,no,do I know Military that carry & like it ,yep.
Do know if it's been used real time yep.Is it the only knife I like & carry?NO,
I happen to like slipjoints,Randalls,Pattons,HI KUKRIS & Spydie Civilians.
Jim
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
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Wait, so how come the default response to any criticsim of any sort of the G is to tell the person making the post that he doesn't understand the G? Why don't you answer the points bob7 made?
 

Sal Glesser

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Joined
Dec 27, 1998
Messages
11,311
Spyderco disco'd the G as a matter of making room for more models. Period.

Slow movers will all eventually be disco'd. We are a small company and we cannot maintain very large inventories and we cannot afford to inventory and promote slower moving items. (advertising, catalog costs, inventory and parts costs)

We did make the G for the 5 years I promised. (1999-2004), actually 6.

I personally think the Gunting is a great design by a great MBC instructor. We have worked closey with Bram. I have come respect his abilities, understanding, realistic knife attitude, and we've become friends. That will remain.

Bram certainly influenced me in the concept of 3" MBC folders, the use of a knife as a yawara, and the need for options.

We built The Gunting to the best of our ability in the US plant. We promoted it to the best of our ability. The Gunting has received worldwide attention and numerous articles. We are doing everything possible to see to it that Bram gets to keep his knife. We will continue to carry it in our disco section for as long as there is inventory.

We will specially make very small numbers for Bram, which we would not consider for other designs, and it would still be a Spydercoi made to our standards. We are also willing to permit Bram to have other makers make the model it he so chooses. (less Spyderco round hole and compression lock). I personally think the Gunting does have promise in a future world of controlling a bad guy. We're on Bram's side.

There were many designs that were disco'd for 2005, (Perrin, SPOT, Calypso jr, Ronin, etc). and I'm sure many more will see the same in 2006. These are all good designs.

I don't see Spyderco as a "bad guy" here, I hope no one else does. Sales of a model support the design and the company. It is the way of business. Some designs, as examples; (Perrin, SPOT, Calypso jr, Ronin, etc). do not sell as well as others. Maybe the market was too small, maybe the cost was too high (some models just cost more th make), Maybe there were legal issues, or safety issues. Maybe it needed more that we could provide. Maybe it was just too far ahead of its time.

We have good patents to protect the invention, should it become popular.

I believe that Bram knows that Spyderco has never had any intentions to hurt him or the Gunting in any way. And we will help him in any way we can to support his quest.

It is obvious that Bram and the Gunting have a strong following. Just do a search on the subject in any forum.

It took us many years to sell the market on clips, teeth and one hand openers. Sometimes a great deal of missionary work is neccesary to bring a new concept to large market acceptance.

Bram has 3 designs for the G and one for a smaller version on which Spyderco spent much time and money to help Bram develop the model. There are instructional videos. There is a rock solid reputation for toughness and performance. That's quite a bit.

sal
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
865
A few thoughts: I am a big-city LEO, and in the absence of any department policy on knives, I carry a Gunting 24/7, among other blades. Texas law on use of force, which affects LEOs and private citizens equally, allows any force to be used which is REASONABLE under the circumstances, which IMHO does allow weapons to be deployed against an unarmed attacker under the right circumstances, as long as the user can face a grand jury later and explain why his use of force was reasonable. If I feel the need to deploy an impact weapon, and pull out a pocket stick, and my attacker responds by deploying a deadly weapon, such as a knife, I am still holding a pocket stick. Had I deployed a closed Gunting, I could escalate by opening the Gunting's blade. I own a Kubotan, but do not use it here in Texas. BTW, my practice of carrying a knife which can also serve as an impact/pressure point weapon dates back to the mid-80's, when I carried an original Al Mar SERE folder, which BTW makes the currently-produced SERE folder a comparative lightweight. The old SERE not only has mass, but the integral guards can be used to enhance a strike or pressure point technique. The Gunting is better, because Bram designed it specifically for use as a weapon while closed, and it opens much more easily than the old SERE folder. Regarding the issue of "needing training" to use a Gunting, well, IMHO, anyone who contemplates using a blade for defense should seek realistic training. I originally sought blade combative training to learn how to defend AGAINST an attacker with a knife, and integral to defending against a weapon or fighting style is to study the USE of that weapon or style. In the USA, I will probably never use a blade to actually cut an attacker, because I can carry a firearm most places, thanks to the new law allowing active and honorably retired LEOs to carry in all states in the USA. BUT, I should understand blade combatives to be able to respond to a sudden close-range attack, to create an opening to deploy a superior weapon, or to be able to escalate the level of force if using a closed Gunting. Plus, there will always be places that firearms cannot be carried by anyone. I have been trained by Bram, Steve Tarani, and SouthNarc, and hope to train with all of them more in the future. I bought spare Guntings, and will try to order a few more if I can find them. If other manufacturers make Guntings, my dream Gunting would be made by Strider. :D
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
260
sal, willp, kukri4203,
Thank you for the responses. I look at gunting in the following way:

-Pulling the gunting on someone to de-escalate a "situation" means you pulled a knife on someone to de-escalate a "situation". It's not a pocket stick, pepperspray, blackjack, or mace. It can be used as a pocket stick, but it's still a knife. If it's a knife, the escalation of force ladder went from 0 to 60 in a second flat. No amount of classwork, videos, wishful thinking, or marketing changes that.

-Because the gunting is uncomfortable to carry like a "clipit", it suddenly becomes the antithesis of a clipit, something like a buck 110 folder. The buck is still a great knife, like the gunting, but it's not a clipit. Still, I think spyderco should have made it. I bought two, remember? I do think the concepts around it, and this is Bram's department, need to be re-worked.

Example: I've had two federal agents, one FBI/one us customs, say great things about the construction of the knife. They, however, wouldn't carry them because the gunting was uncomfortable to carry and their use of force policies conflicted w/ its deployment in a fight/altercation.

Thank you for allowing me to say my peace on this; I feel better now.
bob7
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Messages
1
Hello All,

I am new to this forum, but not to the fun of using a GUNTING. I believe that the Spyderco management is continuing to make the same mistake that it has ever since this knife was first introduced... they have never supported it in ads and promotions outside of the major knife shows.

My first contact with this knife and drone training came through a friend who had gotten both through another friend and dealer. Damn sure was a very positive though painful introduction. next I began to hear about the GUNTING through a friend and former classmate from France. He was raving about the the knife. Now it sure is curious that the Europeans know more about this knife, manufactered in the USA, than most Americans. Regardless of the Spyderco management decisions, I like the GUNTING, will be buying several more for family and friends and I do not go anywhere without it.

Adam Toussaint


BRAM said:
Well Spyderco..I'm sorry that you decided to discountinue the Gunting as an official Spyderco knife..I think thats a tactical error but hey I'm not Spyderco...I'm sorry it never got the run of 5 years as discussed to make a go of it ...or to see it go into offical required carry or the backing it deserved,....but it was made to great specs..
The SPYDERCO Gunting is one of the best made edged tools out there and will continue to be...its GREAT!
I'm happy you have said here in print that it will continue to be made for us as needed..
Thank you Spyderco..Appreciate the support!

As for big runs? big contracts? where are the big agencies? acceptence?
Hmm even contact is hard and everyone wants to be the Tactical answer to badguys after 911..its a wide open market with lots of BS respnses and claims..
Spyderco is not GAO accepted so it needs to be put through the mill of testing..
Folks to be required carry is a serious thing..its not just "OH we like that tool or its looks..or don't worry its going to work.." it needs to be documented ..it needs to be demonstrated in real time and under close supervision...under set circumstances...
it needs to pass liability testing..endurance testing...NOOOOO spyderco has no liability testing of that kind...and even if it did it couldn't be accepted by any using agency..Like the Fox guarding a hen house or any industry policing itself for problems..
totally unacceptable..
They , the agencies need to see limits of usage, damage done in useage, liability of usage, and moreso, is is worthy of SOP on Departmental training? is it Teachable? can it cover the force continuum? can it be rescue, EDC and SDR at any time?
It takes time and a group of small users doing daily chores and duties to compare to the regular units to see differences in performance, liability and results...
The Gunting is in use-evaluation in several areas,,
Afghanistan, Iraq, Canada, EU, Mexico and of course the good ole USA..
its being tested as Federal Carry, State Carry, Military Carry, Security and Anti Terror carry..even corrections usage & carry....
All have long deep evaluations..

Its taken out insurgents..protected Generals, kept Islamic terrorists in line in jail and in prisoner of war camps..
Its taken out Drug dealers and street gang leaders.
Its protected and saved lines in security service and in LE regular duty..
There is no SOP on carrying edged tools to be used on human beings..no training programs.. no Departmental OK..Shooting is easier to digest..Enter the Gunting a full force continuum tool.. Options galore.
We will get that SOP to carry
We have training programs..written and DVD...Train the trainer
Learn in 6 teach in 12...yes hours!

Thanks again Spyderco for the great tool..
No one could make it better..
I suggest that Spyderco sell the CRMIPTs in stock DIRECTLY to the agencies that request them..They can deal with the agencies
I see right now its in several current EU magazines as the Best tool ever designed for LE..

be safe

Bram

As I said the Gunting will continue..
I just finished teaching a 4 day instructor camp for LE & Military..et al...
Working on the new military training...
There's still our ongoing 2 day CRMIPT classes @ the Academy..www.s2institute.com
and our Learn in 6 teach in 12 seminars..www.cssdsc.com
Soft Stix is now making a full contact soft training version open & closed of the Gunting to add to the stable of GUnting training tools.
TAK Knives has added a bit harder version of plastic for the next level up training tool..of course in open & closed positions..
WHY is that important?
Training is the key to acceptance on a tool. The more training tools available, the more types of training available the better it is for the agencies that use it..
Training makes it work..not the tool..
Owning a firearm is pointless without going to the range..
Look for a "marking" Gunting training tool soon as well..
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
504
Bob,
I can see some of your points,others I disagree with! Example: need a sheath,I carry,in a sheath,also have carried in a pocket,sheath makes it more comfortable & easier & faster to use.Buck,have a couple,carried in pocket but prefer a sheath carry.As for the G being pulled & used closed but still being viewed as a knife(a Drone or Crimp.is not a live blade)the live G is NOT a knife untill it is used open otherwise it's still IMPACT! As for the teaching becoming MORE simplified....I have been teaching the G for a little while,I'm
60,old & kinda slow comparied to others,I'm not brilliant,it's concepts are easy to me to follow & use.I've even started teaching my 16 yr.old niece,she understands & loves it.I assume you have never taken a seminar with BRAM,
take one THEN judge,IF Bram,can teach ME,you will be a breeze,he is a Great Instructor & you would enjoy the seminar,it's kind of hard to judge if you haven't been there!
Thanks for your views & time,
Jim

PS-Trust me!!The teaching works! When I took a Seminar,I,like you was sceptical.Everytime Bram needed a DUMMY(I qualified)I vol.I couldn't believe
IMPACT TOOL,(you mean you are gonna numb my arm & take me down,yeah right,show me)!As stated I ain't smart,you have to show me!!He did!!I now ALWAYS carry a G.I own,two live,two drones & one crimp. :D
 
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