Gunting modified (Suspect Gunting!)

Thanks for all of the replies, guys, both good and bad.

I bought the Gunting because I was curious about it, and because I like the blade style. Sorry Bram, but I have zero desire to learn your techniques as applied to your Gunting, so therefore your intended purposes mean nada to me. You act as though I've destroyed something sacred. This piece costs a fuzz over a hundred bucks. Big deal. I nearly returned it to the dealer when I got it, but then I thought that it might be worthwhile to modify it to my own tastes. And now I'm glad that I kept it.

After carrying the Gunting for a few hours, several things became readily apparent.
1. The blade opens in the pocket. Yes, when clipped to the pocket, the blade opens with little encouragement/movement. So since I value my groin, I don't necessarily want this blade pointing tip-down and inward, dig? So while drilling the Gunting for tip-up carry I realized that the clip is rather fugly, and I therefore don't want it as an advertisement clipped to my pocket, especially since it rides so ridiculously high when clipped to the pocket, hence the swap to the Emerson clip. The Emerson clip is positioned for LOW carry as opposed to having half a knife hanging out of my pocket. Concealment is important to me. Pardon me for living in the real world.
2. I own several Commanders, and carry one daily. I'm very partial to the speed of the wave. This Gunting isn't a replacement for my Commander at all. This Gunting is for me to carry in areas where I'm restricted to a 3" or less blade length. I'm very glad that it easily waves open in the tip-up position because I've grown rather accustomed to this type of speed draw due to all of my time carrying Commanders. A wave draw comes very naturally to me. Muscle memory is paramount to all.
3. I reduced the blade to handle ratio purely for concealment purposes. I chose the radical skullcrusher design because, guess what, if I pull a knife in self defense I DO want to crush a skull and cut and kill and anything else that it takes to make it out of the situation alive. I've experienced two very brutal knife encounters during my life, and I'm still here to talk about it, so perhaps I know a little something about fighting, Bram. No, I don't have a fan club or videos or a secret decoder ring, or whatever else it is that World Class Knife Fighters peddle as of late in order to make a buck or two,....but I can take care of myself quite nicely with a blade nonetheless.

Your knife is decent, Bram, although obviously quite dangerous for pocket carry in the tip-down position. This fault would seem to be prime fodder for unscrupulous attorneys of the world, but that's your choice. However, the blade is quite-secure in tip-up. And if it DOES open in tup-up? Big deal. So maybe I slice my jeans at the hip. I can deal with that just fine.

Decent weapons sometimes get better with a few mods. I like Government .45's, but only after a few mods as well. Box stock has just never been my thing. Some things really are quite perfect as they were designed; A Ryan Biohazard, Hossom customs, my ranch here in the mountains, the love of my wife,.... but your Gunting? Not quite. I prefer to keep my testicals in tact. Kevlar underwear just doesn't sound like a viable option; too itchy.
 
Basically the force contiunuum in reverse. Lethal first instead of as an always available OPTION. If you don't understand this you have missed the beauty of the design.

Watch just one of the tapes and it will be very clear.
 
Originally posted by FullerH
I am particularly alarmed with his conversion to "tip-up" carry. As one who has carried a Gunting nearly every day for almost eight months, I am here to tell you that the over-sized ramp that allows kinetic opennings also tends to catch on pocket linings and it seems to me that a tip-up carry is just asking to have the blade stabbed into your leg in a fast draw situation. I can only advise Eric to be EXTREMELY careful when he draws his modified knife, especially since he is also carrying it deeper in his pocket.
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Hugh,

There is no need to be alarmed at all. No need for warning, etc. Are you familiar with Emerson's Waved Folders? I have to insert a caveat here, I have not altered a Gunting so it can be carried tip-up and "Waved" open, but I discussed this with Bram a long, long time ago on the phone. I think, quite simply, if Eric, being intimately familiar with "Waved" Emersons that he is...has not stabbed himself yet, the design is probably sound. In other words, he has not sent himself to the hospital yet, so it probably is not going to happen.

The reason I discussed this with Bram is, I happen to like the handle to blade ratio myself. Ultimate state of control. I just like tip-up carry. Since where I live, I cannot utilize a knife as a Yawara/Kubotan/Koppo Stick, the feature of using the knife closed in many cases is a NO GO for me. If I pull a knife out of my pocket in any altercation in Maryland, I just initiated Lethal Force.

In other words, there are many times when a Kubotan could be used on the street in Non-Lethal Force Encounters. However, where I am, if I use a closed Gunting to perform them, from the moment I put my hand on the knife in my pocket, that's Assault with a Deadly Weapon. Only if confronted with Deadly Force or the threat of it, can I put my hand on that knife.

That is not to say the Gunting does not perform as intended, it does. I have a Gunting Trainer, all of the various attributes are on the money. There is not one wasted bit of material on that grip. Every curve and flat has a purpose from enhancing the grip to causing teary-eyed pain in someone.

And the Compression Lock, as far as I'm concerned, has dinosaured the Liner Lock. The Liner Lock is a 486 and we're talking Pentium IV here.

I like a lower profile knife, personally. Where I am, and I often have my young Son with me, I simply do not wish to howl from the mountaintops, "I have a KNIFE in my POCKET, please, come hassle me over this KNIFE I have in my POCKET!"

I just wish we could get away from the socio-political stigma of "Weapon." There is nothing wrong with a weapon. Nothing wrong with Self-preservation. And as a side issue, the more we run from that, the harder the fight will be for us later. Legitimize Self-defense, legitimize the tools/weapons to make the defense a success, baddabing! You're safer and more "legal." As it stands right now, one should endeavor to become a little gray person, out in the periphery of the crowd. If that changed and one did not have to worry about being hassled all the time, I would probably carry a right and left hand Gunting...

In all the times I have spoken with Bram about the Gunting and the few times we have spoke and I have talked about modifying it, he never got miffed about it. Maybe seeing it done miffed him. I have no idea as I have not spoken to him about this thread.

I think it might be a case of "dry text." The typed word often does not come across well at all.
 
I think Bram was speaking from a philosophical / martial arts perspective too. The knife looks similar but the underlying philosophy has changed so it is no longer what the name denotes. It's the same in martial arts. There are many martial arts styles that share the same techniques (e.g. locks and throws in Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and Kodokan Judo) and -- to a layman -- look the same. However, there are underlying philosophies and approaches of the respective styles that make them unique.

Did it seem like Bram took it personally? Probably.

But then again, according to a mutual friend of Bram and mine (who had no idea Bram had released the knife), Bram spent over 15 years researching and designing the knife. No, it's not a knife that was knocked off on a chalkboard, or Adobe Photoshop overnight by a marketing research group for Spyderco's new fall line-up.

Therefore, you could see how Bram would take it personally if someone changed it literally overnight and still called it by its trade name. It would be be like telling Davinci that the Mona Lisa needs a bigger smile. Or telling a proud parent that their baby would be much cuter if his/her nose weren't so big. You get the idea.

Personally, I think both knives look great and function on different complex levels.
 
wow this has gotten ugly!! well, heres my .02 worth - if you pull a knife (any knife) in texas you are taking a chance that the guy ya are facing is carrying a GUN - i too want something to, well, kill if its down to a knife (i also carry a glock 32 or 33, and a kel tech .32/ colt det spec .38 as backup, and the knife backs up the 2 guns ) but most importantly, imho is ya better be ready able and willing to get it on w/a knife, cause the guy you are facing might have a gun, and if he does, and you have a knife out, he is gonna shoot you and walk (as far as criminal liability) - i dont know about all this 'less than lethal' force, if ya are legally justified in pulling a knife on some one, ya are justified to use lethal force and ya better do that rather than BS around w/the guy - i like the gunting but only in a sheath, opens too easy in my pocket for me, and the blade is also short (i also bought mine for places w/less than 3" restrictions) so dont make the classic mistake of carrying a knife to a gunfight - if i want to use something less than lethal, give me some pepper spray, not a knife - if its down to that i want lethality - just my .02 worth


sifu
 
This is turning into one of those ugly debates about how well or poorly the Gunting fits the force spectrum...

Bram: If you did not mean to be sarcastic, I apologize. Don was right, it is easy to read emotion into dry text and misinterpret where someone is coming from. Sorry. I understand your comment about not understanding the gunting better now.
 
You guys are taking this way to seriously!
Really..Don's right.I'm not mad..nor unhappy.. I was really serious..if you buy it..go right ahead and modify it..Hell ..you ( whom-ever- genealized "you")actually bought a Gunting..
No I really didn't mean to be sarcastic..

statement of fact..
its modified so it s not a Gunting..
modify any maufacturers tool etc and its not whatthey made..and basic gun modifications do not change the function or design..
you can bolt or unbolt that Colt a zillion times..its still a 1911 cause firearms go boom..

make it so its a club not a fireartm..and gee it works great in CQC..but it isn''t a Colt FIREARM....ROFL..

Like I said..nothing to read between the lines..if it can't do the force continuum its not a Gunting..cause thats what the Gunting is designed to do..yes its a modified Gunting..hmm like when we build drag cars..an Modified-Altered radical...( hmm I actually competed in that category..long long ago!)
It might be in the family but its a distant unrelated cousin...

and if you're trying to tell me it opens tip down in your pocket but its SAFER tip up..you got a screw loose..the knife not.. YOU.
tighten the center screw..ROFL..of course I know from OTHER Threads n posts this has been said MANY times by others..


I got news for you ..if it opens tip up its gonna cut the hell out of your leg n groin as well..

Hey..Buy LOTS of Guntings...all of you,,PLEASE..modify it anyways you want..I bet most of you might not be as talented as Eric with a Dremel so you might need a few to get those modifications correct..
By the way..how diid you compensate for the now nonexistent support on the butt end ?????rofl..


Geeee Michael DeBethencourt the Head Knife Instructor @ SIG Arms Academy went the opposite way..he put spoon clips and indexing dimples on all his other Spydies...

see ya!
 
Eric,
Right up front, I'm going to admit I'm biased! I've taken Bram's class, teach the G. & like it the way it is! Tried carrying it tip up
& down, never could get it to open in my pocket, believe me I carried it every day & still do(only now carry it in Kyde) it never opened in my pocket! I put my hands in VERY CAREFULLY, MINE IS KEPT sharp!YOUR WORK IS GREAT,BUT the finihed product does remind me of a souped up Escalator! I carried one of those(still have both trainer & live blade)used it like the G, it's just not as effective,"to me"!! ! If you use & like yours great!!
JIM :D
 
If anyone here thinks that Bram was angered about this little project, well you were wrong. I know Bram; he wasn't angry, he was just a little incredulous. As he stated, and I concour, this is your knife do what you want, this is America. It's an inanimate object so there is no moral injunction against your modifications. On the other hand every man is judged by his works.

You have now put your work out in public for evaluaton. Bram did the same thing with his design. From what I know of his design, I will judge him as brilliant and insightful. After having seen yours I'll judge you as a bonehead. Sorry if that offneds you, but honesty is the truest form of kindness. I hope you can benefit from it.

No, Bram was not angry, hurt or insecure because of your project. The Russian and Israeli military and the Border Patrol, to name a few who have their **** together, also think that it is "brilliant and insightful". Bram doesn't need the two cents worth of web posters to feel "OK" about the Gunting. Yours or mine.

The irony of this is that someone took a truly insiteful design and made it less, but called it more, in the old days this was called hubris. Did you really think you knew more about knife design then he?

I bear you no malice. I hope you benefit from this. If you really want to learn about knife craft, learn to recognize your betters and then learn from them. Someday others will want to learn from you.

As to Bram being an old woman, please you can do better than that. I also agree with the admonition about wave opening the Gunting. Be careful, it has a very sharp point; it will go in your ass a long ways. I have witnessed a couple of people cut using opening techniques that the knife was not designed for.

Good luck,
 
Man, you guys all need to lighten up a little.

It's not a Lichtenstein it's a knife.

Yes, he did take away a lot of the features Bram worked so hard on developing. Yes, the knife will still function. Yes, the modifications look good. Yes it is still a Spyderco, just a modified one.

No, it's not an Escalator. (The fit and finish, blade and overall quality are still better)

Very few people who read this message can honestly say that they have never taken anything they owned and modified it to suit their needs a little more.

The bottom line is he supported the product by buying it.
 
Since this is a public forum I thought that I would share my views on the Gunting and the alterations made.

The bladetype is nice, except that the topedge isn´t sharp. It would be great if it was possible to start cutting immediately in every situation. Yes I know about the legal issues concerning a double edged blade. Too bad that the same consideration about legality made Spyderco make a blade that is too short (there is more place in that great handle). You can argue all night long that you don´t need a longer blade, I don´t agree. More movement with your arm is necessery when you want to cut through heavy clothing. The first cut on winterclothing may not be enough to reach the chosen targets, you´ll have to cut again. More movement means more time, time that you probably won´t have.

The handle feels very secure, but the blade to handle ratio makes it seem too large as an EDC. The indention in the clip and the indention in the scale that makes for swift gripchanges is a great idea. I did however take away the clip and the gripchanges became even faster and felt more secure. Why keep the clip at all? People on the forums seem to advocate a kydex holster worn on the belt or inside the pocket anyway. Why not dump the clip and make a new indention on the other side of the scale. Buy a concealex or kydex holster and have a knife with a better grip (without the clip). Why not get a holster that can make it open immediately when drawn, like the one sold for the Commander.

By making the handle shorter and giving it a scullcrusher type of end it looks like it´s easier to carry. I still don´t like the clip, or rather it´s placement because it takes away/makes it harder to do swift gripchanges. However it seems to work for Eric and it will probably be easier for him to shift between this knife and his Commanders in his EDC rotation (muscle memory).

Sure, you might want to carry it to use force on a continuum, that´s what a Gunting is all about. I want to carry it as a tool for selfpreservation (=combat, in my world) I want to make a person stop the agression NOW - no matter what drugs he has taken or what mental state he is in. I don´t rely on pressure points. But hey, that´s me. You´re free to think and do whatever you feel is right (whoever "you" is). It´s that time aspect again when you move from pressurepoints to cutting. Time you probably won´t have.

I think all of this boils down to your own view of life, it´s value and when it´s worth risking it. A topic that can be discussed forever.

When a Gunting with close to a four inch blade that has the same sized handle (drop the "fob" hole and put in another pin) hits the market, I will probably be first in line to buy it. And the day it arrives in the mail I´ll sell my Commander.

Then why did i buy the Gunting if I want to change so many things (and I will on mine)? Because you get a lot of knife for the money (as always with a Spyderco) and I have only found one folding knife in the same pricerange that can compete with it and that is my Commander.

BTW if the laws were different I would rather carry a Glock but that´s a different topic.

/Colinz (looking for the dremel and saving up for a customjob)
 
Originally posted by crecy
If anyone here thinks that Bram was angered about this little project, well you were wrong. I know Bram; he wasn't angry, he was just a little incredulous.
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I agree for the reasons I stated before. And I spoke with him today as well.

You have now put your work out in public for evaluaton. Bram did the same thing with his design. From what I know of his design, I will judge him as brilliant and insightful. After having seen yours I'll judge you as a bonehead. Sorry if that offneds you, but honesty is the truest form of kindness. I hope you can benefit from it.
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Now you see, you started out great and ended up in a pit. He's not a "bonehead" because he altered something to fit his needs, you see, with all due respect, what you just stated is the height of arrogance.

For example, I know that Bram went to great lengths to make a grip [on the Gunting] that would fit the vast majority of hands. My Wife, she is simply not comfortable with this Gunting Trainer I have. That is not a "weakness" of the Gunting or a design flaw, it's a reality.

Perhaps being a "bonehead" means that someone who does not fit in a particular mold, to you, is modifying something. Best to drop it. Your claim that your opinion, and that is precisely what it is, is wrapped in "honesty" which is the "truest form of kindness" is a nice way of saying, "I'm smarter than your hand and what you feel."

It does not wash, Sir, and I'm not going to get involved in a flame festival with you over it either. Respond and defend or deny it all you wish. Others will decide. It remains, only your opinion, parading as a fact.

The irony of this is that someone took a truly insiteful design and made it less, but called it more, in the old days this was called hubris. Did you really think you knew more about knife design then he?
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This is the point, it might be more to Eric and that is all that matters. I, on the other hand, love the grip. I just don't care for the high ride. I may as well cover myself in powdered doughnut sugar where I live, I would draw less attention from Law Enforcement.

I bear you no malice. I hope you benefit from this.
Click to expand...

If only every excuse and cover for an insult could be so cheaply purchased. :rolleyes:

If you really want to learn about knife craft, learn to recognize your betters and then learn from them. Someday others will want to learn from you.
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You have no idea who you are speaking about, with all due respect. And Bram has some great ideas, yet Bram would tell you instantly that he is not the, "be all, end all" in edged weapons combatives. Bram will tell you to take his stuff and run from it and go your own way and learn from others as well...

I also agree with the admonition about wave opening the Gunting. Be careful, it has a very sharp point; it will go in your ass a long ways. I have witnessed a couple of people cut using opening techniques that the knife was not designed for.

Good luck,
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Like I said before, I have not modified a Gunting, but I have to tell you, I see alot of people saying a, "Waved open knife will do THIS..."

And, again, sadly...you have no idea what you are talking about. I have literally, waved thousands of times. Unless there is something about the final angle of the blade to ramp relationship that gets effected with tip up carry and using the ramp to activate a wave opening, the point is clear.

The knife will only go in the ass of a moron. An Emerson Waved Folder will only go in the ass of a moron. It's quite simple. Perhaps some of these more advanced knives need to come with a warning label. :rolleyes:

It's pretty clear that you are propping yourself up as someone who knows what the deal is with Waved Openings, just how do you figure the Gunting, if opened in this manner, is going to stick someone in the rear?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Edited for missed keystrokes and quotation-code correction. :D ]
 
Don and sifu1a said somethings I always thought about the gunting.That is I see the gunting like the phasers on startrek,with both stun and kill modes.The problem is your opponent has no way of knowing which. He just sees a knife and he is now free to use deadly force.You reach for your pocket,I reach for my holster,you come out with something in your hand...BANG.No matter what YOU planned to do with it I see a knife and I bet the judge and jury will see a knife also.

You can tell them all about the nonleathal moves you know and the classes you took,but your opponent sees you reach for an object in your pocket and come out with a knife, a deadly weapon in your opponents mind.

Well I got to go now,I'm going to tape some pepper spray to my Glock that way I can pull it in a fist fight.The force continuum yes! All in one product? Not in your opponents eye.

Set phasers on kill.
 
It's all good...

Modified knives are cool. The original Gunting is way cool, but you must see the complete picture and have a better overall understanding to "get it".



Steve :cool: :D (sippin' my Kool-aid)
 
After reading through this thread, I only have one thing to say: I NEED a Gunting.
 
Don,

Thanks for your opinions. I have expressed mine, you have expressed yours. I am sure you will stick to yours, as I will stick to mine; they were carefully considered. I am sure yours were too.

One other thing I will comment on. Many have posted comments about modifying various firearms as a comparison to this project. This is frequently also not a good idea. I see lots of horror stories on this theme brought to the gunsmith I work with. Yes, knives are simpler implements, but you can still get into trouble tinkering with original design.

All of us at times think that we are smarter then someone who had an idea before us. Sometimes that is true but most of the time it is not and walking around with those kinds of assumptions is a guarantee against learning. Nuff said.
 
Don, I carry my Gunting nearly every working day in downtown DC, in fact right at Judiciary Square and the DC Courthouse, and I have never even had one cop so much as raise an eyebrow at me as I walk past them. Of course, I am wearing slacks, not jeans, so that the hilt and horh are lagely covered by the acute angle of the pocket, making it rather less visible than it would be in a pair of jeans.

Now, regarding opening in your pocket, I basede my concern upon all of the prior compalints that have been posted in the forum about this and upon my own experience. I found that, as the knife broke in, the pivot became looser and I had it try to open in my pocket once, which was one too many times. I got out my Tork driver and tightened the pivot screw and I now make that a part of my regular maintenance. I seems only reasonable to me that carrying a Gunting altered to "tip-up" is just asking for an accident. The horn, or ramp is extra large to facilitate kinetic openings, and it has a tnedency to snag on the pocket lining, as many of you can attest. I shudder to think of what would happen if this were to occur during a fast drw with a "tip-up" version. And the deeper that you have inserted it into your pocket, the more likely it is that the ramp will snag, it just seems to make common sense to me.

As I carry my Gunting for utility purposes, think of it as an ergonomically designed tool for very arthritic hands, I am not concerned with the "Continuum of Force" aspect, but I must admit to some puzzlement over this concept. It would seem only logical to me that pulling a knife, open or closed, is escalating to deadly force, so I am not certain where the continuum is useful. Perhaps someone would like to take a moment to explain this to me. My e-mail address is hughf_us@yahoo.com if you would rather not get into it online.

Eric, it sounds as if you have modified your knife to fit your tastes and needs very well and I congratulate you on your skill. I hope that you did not take my initial post as an attack, as I was only trying to explain why I thought that Bram felt that the modifications made it no longer a Gunting, but something else, perhaps an "Eric". My reaction to the "tip-up" carry question is as stated above, but also based upon personal experience with an early Al Mar Quicksilver that came open in my pocket with some regularity. I still have that thing in the bittom of my drawer and would not consider giving it away or selling it as it is too damned dagerous for anyone to carry! The later ones came with a catch that locked the blade closed.
 
Using a Gunting closed is not seen..its felt before its seen..Drawing it out is not a "Oh the good guy has what looks like a knife so I'm gonna draw my knife and cut him first"..
sure..I guess some of you think that people start waving knives around BEFORE they go at it..yeah..just like in the movies.

Not going to happen..

Skull crusher? you must have very little hands..the butt works sticking out of your hands..cut the butt off and its inside my hands.. and i have average hands...that tip sticks out on yours???

I don't know of decoder rings, fan clubs or the like ..but feel free to do whatever makes you happy..secret handshakes work well too...

again..modify away..Glad you thought the GUNTING was a good baseknife to customise..really..
Please as I said BUY several and do it..Again Eric I doubt most have your skill but maybe you can do it for those that want it..
Thats a REAL comment..You obviously are skilled with a dremel, etc..
Your modification is not what I designed but that what customising is all about..
have a great time!
 
I'm afraid its even worse than you thought,I don't get my info from the movies,I've been paid to be the weapons consultant on movies!! Ain't it a b*tch when producers hire there friends instead of qualified people.:D Oh well thats the movie business.

Btw his next film he wants to make a kung foo film staring a bunch of bikini clad silicone filled babes (straight to cable this one). There will be lots of weapons in this one who knows maybe a gunting will show up in a scene,I've got one in mind myself but thats not my dept.:D

You can do a search in the community section for the thread "I'm in the movies" to read about the last film I worked on this thread is from 2/01 I believe.
 
Originally posted by BRAM
Using a Gunting closed is not seen..its felt before its seen..Drawing it out is not a "Oh the good guy has what looks like a knife so I'm gonna draw my knife and cut him first"..
sure..I guess some of you think that people start waving knives around BEFORE they go at it..yeah..just like in the movies.

Not going to happen..
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Alot of people do in fact threaten with a weapon, especially during a robbery.

It's funny you say, "Just like in the movies," Bram. Unfortunately, life does imitate art, like it or not. Many criminal cretins hold their handguns sideways as well, as they have been taught by their Gangster (and sometimes "Good Guy") Heroes as well. They're using the weapon for a terror campaign to effect compliance without any further violence other than brandishing in many cases...

Hell, you can search "Practical Tactical Forum" and see thread after thread of posts by "Good Guys" discussing a decision to threaten someone with a blade to back them up. (Bad choice)
 
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