Gunting modified (Suspect Gunting!)

I worked as an LEO for two years. Whenever my colleagues got cut up, they never knew that the guy they were after had a knife. In your country, I'm sure you've all seen those police videos of the criminal with his hand in his pocket, and you can't shoot him because he may have nothing in it.

With this little gunting, I have an impact weapon in my hand that can turn into a knife. It helps the situation a lot....you got nothing, well, I got nothing too....you got a blade....pop, I cut you...

Of course it sounds easy to write, but at least you have something designed for that purpose.

Yes, it isn't concealable....irritating, but that's part of the design....it has to ride high, I think.

Eric did not buy the knife to use as a gunting, he wanted a knife to use in his own way, so he made it fit his own way as well as he could.
 
Syk, in the U.S. cops shoot people who don't obey commands and reach for their pocket or waistband.Sometimes they don't have anything either.They don't wait to see what rules the Bg is going to play by.We've all read the words,"he would not obey my commands,he made a sudden move with his hand for his pocket".

It sounds like a good tool for you,but if a civilian in the U.S.
pulls a knife out in a fight,well he just pulled a deadly wepon and gave the green light to his opponent to respond with deadly force,you better be good and able to kill him before he fires.
 
Look at it from the other side of the blade. If an opponent draws what appears to be a knife from his pocket, don't you feel that your life is being threatened? Do you think that you should wait until the knife is opened before you respond with a full defense, or should you seek to end the engagement as swiftly as possible, and prevent the knife from ever opening?

As soon as I am confronted with an object that could be a knife, gun, ASP baton, or other potentially (key word is potentially) deadly weapon, I will respond as if that object presents a deadly threat. I'll run like hell. And if I can't run, I'll act to immediately disable the attacker as completely as possible. No halfsies.

That's the response I'd expect as soon as my hand emerges from my pocket, whether I'm pulling my Gunting, a kubotan, or a shiny looking roll of Certs (with Retsyn!). From a cop or a BG.

SYK, yes, they can and will shoot you with your hand in your pocket. It's not what you have, it's what they reasonably believe you have that makes the shooting valid.

Just my $.02
 
Lone Hunter, Brian_Turner, thanks for your replies.

I was thinking more of the situation when the suspect runs away from you, and it's dark, and you don't know what he has in his hands. Then you chase him and jump him and get cut. I've seen this happen to my colleagues a couple of times.

In this case, maybe you cannot shoot him or may decide not to because he'll be running away from you. In my country, the LEOs are not allowed to shoot unless they feel their lives or the lives of others are threatened.

So if the suspect runs away, in my country, we cannot lawfully shoot him. I think I agree with this, but it ends up causing some problems as I have written above.

I don't work as an LEO any more, but I wish I had had something like this gunting when I was working.

As a civilian however, my problem with the gunting is its concealability. Other than that, I feel that it is a very useful tool.
 
Yeah, I call it the "Crocodile Dundee Syndrome" after the famous scene frome the movie of that name. You remember the one, "You call that a knife?"(to a punk holding a switchblade) "Now this is a knife!"(as he hauls out his crocodile sticker and they run away). A whole generation of kids grew up believing that they had only to flourish a largish knife and that the bad guys would run off, but I suspect that many have discovered to their sorrow that it doesn't work that way. Bram, the difference with the Gunting, as I understand it, is that the martial artist using it as intended is prepared to go the whole nine yards, if necessary. Therefore, you have the Continuum of Force, from pinched nerves and sore heads to sliced tendons and, perhaps, death, if it goes far enough. I do not intend to use my Gunting in that fashion, as I have often said, so I have not studied that continuum.

Now, I can speak enthusiastically to how well it works as an ergonomically designed device for persons with arthritic hands!
 
I have joined the ranks of those who really like the Gunting. It has become one of my favorite folders (the others being made by Strider and Emerson). I truely believe in matching the tool to the job. My waved Emersons are very easy to carry in the pocket, and are wickedly fast to deploy and are defensive cutting tools. My Strider custom folders are basically folding fixed blades and are used when I need a large heavy duty cutting tool, but they are not real comfortable to daily carry. The Gunting is great for cases where I can now carry an impact and lethal force tool in a very discreet package. It sucks for pocket carry (I have plastic on order from Skunkworks-hurry Frank :) ), but is far easier than carrying both a knife, and a yawara stick. The Gunting fits my hand well, and I like how it handles. I am looking very forward to training with Bram in October at the Practical Edged Weapons Seminar I am hosting so I can really get the firsthand info on how to deploy the Gunting. As far as modifications-have a field day, but I do agree with Bram that it is no longer a Gunting as originally designed. If it works for Eric, fine, but it has lost certain aspects that made it a Gunting in Brams eyes. However; it now has features that Eric wants, so in that aspect Eric is happy. It seems that Eric has a created a new tool that meets his needs. I think everyone is a winner with this. Personally, I'll carry a waved Emerson when I want speed, and a stock Gunting when I need to have force continum capability.
 
Originally posted by Lone Hunter
I'm afraid its even worse than you thought,I don't get my info from the movies,I've been paid to be the weapons consultant on movies!! Ain't it a b*tch when producers hire there friends instead of qualified people.:D Oh well thats the movie business.
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I know this is a knife forum, but let's digress:

Sometimes "technical advisors" are the worst things for film and t.v.

Yes, they are compulsory if the show is documentary-based, or reality is important. But for an action film, or fantasy?...

As the late Jack Lemmon said, "In film, you have to be bigger than life." Reality is boring.

I want excitement when I watch an action film. Look at the "balletic ballistic" gunfights in John Woo films, or the ultra gritiness of Michael Mann's HEAT.

As for hand-to-hand combat, one of the most overrated fight scenes was in the original Lethal Weapon.

Recall:

Gary Busey versus Mel Gibson fight scene at the end of "Lethal Weapon"? Rorian Gracie (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) was apparently the TA for that. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu may be effective for street fighting, but what a "yawner" for stage/screen-fighting. Didn't help that Richard Donner (or his 2nd Unit Director) couldn't direct a fight scene if he was in the middle of it...Car chases, yes, fight scenes? No way!

The important thing is that it has to look good for the screen. In movie lingo, "it has to sell for the camera". More often times than not, reality doesn't look good. Just my two cents.
 
Interesting that you'd mention "Heat", since the competent gun handling by the actors in that movie can be atributed to a pretty experienced advisor - former British SAS operative Andy McNab.

Leo
 
I agree Leo Daher,

HEAT is like an instruction movie on how to use longarms in a most efficent way. We used to train the same way when I was in the military (no spec ops or anything just "normal" army stuff).

/Colinz
 
Man says:

"But I'm not wild about tip-down carry, nor am I wild about oversized handle to blade ratio."

Thats why he modified the Gunting. I personally agree he´s point but personally I´d like to change longer blade to my Gunting to make handle to blade ratio correct. That is not so easy with Dremel ;-)
To me tip down is OK.

Bram is maybe great person in martial arts but he also should remember that there is nothing perfect in the world. Not even if couple gun-writers says so.

Knife is knife and Gunting is also impact tool. But it is not ASP and it can´t be. Any Gunting size tool can´t.

It´s a pocket knife (and in right hands very effective) but in any case it "just" a knife. Good one.
 
I believe that Bram has addressed the reason for the >3" blade length on the Gunting before. In many of the jurisdictions within the US, there is a 3" limit on blade length. Such a limit exists in the Capitol of the US, Washington, DC, where I work. That is one of the reasons that I bought the Gunting and is one of the reasons for the >3" blade length on the Gunting, to maximize the number of jurisdictions in which may be legally sold and carried.
 
That legal length is good point. But then the tool is not "perfect" only fitted to fill by laws ;-)

Then I think that we should have 2 models. Full size to us who do not have 3" limits and "local legal" model. Not because that half inch or less radically changes anything but to me it beels "stupid" that the grip is so much longer than blade.

OTOH this is Brams design and I am sure that he had thinking these things. Compromise is never perfect. Well... in fact folding knife is always compromise compared to fixed blade.
 
Originally posted by Leo Daher
Interesting that you'd mention "Heat", since the competent gun handling by the actors in that movie can be atributed to a pretty experienced advisor - former British SAS operative Andy McNab.

Leo
Click to expand...

Well, with all do respect to Andy McNab, I'm sure Michael Mann's directing, AD's, D.O.P., the 2nd unit director, and a good stunt coordinator had some influence in how that scene in HEAT looked.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing technical advisors. They are an invaluable resource. I'm merely pointing out that reality takes a back seat to a "good (camera) shot" where film-making is concerned.

I'm sure Mr. McNab would even say that the scene in HEAT deviated from reality and it's probably frustrating as hell to him as a competent technical advisor.

Gunfights in movies are just like people in movies: They're much prettier than they are in real life!
 
imho the guys who did the north hollywood bank job, then shot it out w/cops w/AKM's and HK's watched 'HEAT' one toooo many times lol


sifu
 
Full Tang Clan,

I wasn't referring to how great the action scenes looked, but rather to the professional firearms handling - something you almost never see in the movies. That's where I'm sure a competent advisor made the difference.

Leo
 
I just love how long threads have all these little tangents... really... we go from a knife mod to the virtues of technical advisors in hollywood!

As for my own 2 cents, I've danced with Don over the virtues of lethal, vs non lethal, etc...

On the other hand, the whole thing started out as a simple post, saying "hey, look what I did!" And, by doing so on a message board, rather than a pictures only website, he opened himself to critique, which is all part of the game known as creative process. You show something off to get commentary, and hopefully some of the criticism you receive will be constructive.

Does Bram know more on the topic of knife design? Well, since he was tapped in the first place, and apparently has done plenty of research, and the knife has received so many good reviews, I'd say yes. I don't know too much about him... but I've seen Don around quite a bit, and from what I've seen Don's respect has to be earned. So to me, that says a lot.

So, on the topic of whether or not it's still a Gunting, I'd have to say no. But then again, the first Mustang Saleen touched stopped being a real mustang, too. Does Eric know anything about knife design? Maybe, maybe not... he's proficient with a Dremel, that's for sure. So maybe he's had at least a little practice. Does his new design work?

We really don't know yet. He hasn't said. But he hasn't had it around for EDC for very long either. It's a work in progress, and he may decide later on that perhaps he likes it, perhaps he doesn't. Maybe it opens in his pocket, maybe it doesn't. Personally I'd like to think a well executed knife won't open in your pocket regardless of design, but that's me. It's part of the learning process on these things. But I'd venture to say that not a few of the more creative and respected designers started out by modifying somethign they bought, rather than starting from scratch.

For myself, having come over from the Bali forum, Handle shape isn't quite as much of an issue over there. Materials, yes. Weights, yes. Inlays, grips, things like that, but aside from a few creative oddballs, the shape, the length, and proportion will remain roughly the same (albeit a bit longer for latch guards) so the creative process doesn't have quite so many potential pitfalls. That's not to say there isn't quite a bit to know about those knives, either, but that's not the point.

All Eric has done is modify an existing tool with another tool, to make something he likes, and he's displayed his work. Some of you are screaming blasphemy. Some of you are scratching your chin, and saying it doesn't look so bad. Others of you are doing movie critiques :)

Either way, Eric did a pretty good job with what he did. A far better job than a goofy kid with a hacksaw in his garage. The results have a finished look to them, so even though it may not be a Gunting anymore, at least its not a mutilated heap. Today he's cutting an existing piece, and despite not conforming to previous specs, it doesn't really look so bad. Whether it feels right is up to him. But tomorrow he may be cutting different handles from steel stock, and shaping his own scales. Maybe even blades, if he gets the proper tools and motivation for that.

I say rock on. Let his own muse guide him as she will. For me, I'll be here to offer critiques on anything else he has to show.
 
You do a great job on the modification stuff you do!!

Bram..., I really have to say -in short-.., that I totally disagree with your rationalization about the style ("just words") you used to comment on the alterations. You designed a great knife.., I've had one for about 6 months, and I actually agree with you and wouldn't change mine at all. Having said this.., there are many approaches to explaining what you perceive to be the short-comings of anyone's attempt to personalize a production knife...., and although I don't personally know Eric, he shares lots of his "projects" on the Forums regulary..., never bashes anyone.., and certainly opens the door for discussion (which I think is good)...with his "bastardizing". Your particular approach was mean spirited and unnecessary in my opinion..., and MILES short of the constructive criticism I'd like to see from an expert (which you certainly are).


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
There is nothing mean spirited about ANYTHING I said..
One shouldn't read into my comments..not tone, intent, or feelings..
several times I've said this..don't read tone or intent..
Is the work good.?? yeah I guess hes a craftsperson..
is it bastardization? you bet in every sense of the word..does that make it mean spirited or bad? to say so? no..
does it show that ERic has no idea of the design..? yes.completely.
does it show he can alter a fundamental design to make it something it isn't meant to be? yes..Is it execute well.?? I guess so..Is it his right? sure..he bought it ..
Can any of you tell me about the design and intent..of my designs?
no way..
Did the functionality and the whole concept of the design get altered..yes..completely..
could I teach it to the agencies I teach?
no way..its function and purpose are gone..
it no longer allows for force continuum..
but I think Eric stated he doesn't need or believe in that..
his right..I mean he bought the tool..
In no way is that mean spirited..or my comments on what he did mean spirited
He bought it..he changed it..
BIg deal..
Again the Gunting is not a name but the concept as well..the redesign and alterations by the makers own claims were to defeat what I designed..
so its not a Gunting..
Again I think I've written a bunch of times that Eric seems to be a very good craftsman..

this is really simple:
change the fundamental intent, design & purpose..then the product is not the same...
PERIOD..
Thats not rocket science.
thats simple fact

You're right..I'm the expert ( at least on my design..) and so thats the end of it..

Mean spirited?
you don't know me at all...

I would guess this thread is about dead,,
 
Originally posted by BRAM

I would guess this thread is about dead,,
Click to expand...

You would think so, Bram, but still it keeps emerging from the abyss.

But perhaps Bram and I are somewhat in agreement here, finally, in the fact that people have read far more into this thread than necessary, and certainly far more than I ever intended.

I'm going to speak my last thoughts on this matter, and then this thread can do as it wishes.

I modified a knife in order to make it more appealing to me, and I wanted to share the pics with other people who liked Spydercos in order to express what I had envisioned.

The Gunting is in my opinion Spyderco's best knife to date, as far as materials and quality go. When I received the Gunting, I saw and held and manipulated a knife that didn't feel quite right to me. As I said before, FOR MY TASTE, the blade to handle ratio is unacceptable. And the clip placement is absolutely absurd. Nobody places a clip that far towards center, and for good reason; because it sticks out of your pocket like a flag and screams "I'VE GOT A KNIFE!!". No thanks.

So I took a quality piece and modified it to my liking. Since doing so I have received no fewer than 20 inquiries from people who have asked what I'd charge to modify their Gunting in a similiar fashion. Several people have even offered much more money than I paid for this piece in order to purchase it. Have I sold mine, or have I modified anyone else's Gunting? No. Why not? For a few reasons. Namely;
1. It took me perhaps a total of 4 hours to modify this Gunting in order to make it the way it is now. I don't have the time to do such modifications for others, because I have better ways in which to profit from my time. But thanks for the offers.
2. Although it's the best Spyderco I've ever handled, I won't pretend that it's one of the best tactical folders around. I carry a Ryan Biohazard M1, a 98 Commander, and a Microtech LCC daily. And I've got some Strider folders coming in soon. So I'm not going to hype this Spyderco to people when I feel that there are much better knives to be had. Bottom line? This Spyderco sits here near my computer and opens packages of incoming knives. It's a good box opener. It doesn't see carry anymore because I simply have knives that I enjoy far more.

So while I appreciate the compliments that I've received pertaining to these mods, let me set the record straight and say that I never intended to piss anyone off. Nor did I ever intend to imply that this folder (in Brams original form, or my "bastardized" form) is anything more than a decent knife. When I got the Gunting the materials and quality were excellent (for a knife in this league), and the design mildly sucked. I modified it so that it's now OKAY to me.

Bram says that it's no longer a Gunting. So? This to me is a good thing because the Gunting is a good plan gone bad. (Where did you initially envision the clip placement, Bram? Did it end up somewhere all together different?) It seems to me that this design was fully bastardized long before I ever heard the word Gunting. So no, mine is no longer a Gunting. And now it's an acceptable piece. If I had wanted a Tomahawk I would have purchased a Tomahawk, and not a little knife with a mispositioned clip that wants to grow up to be a Tomahawk. I have no desire to tap away at a bad guys head or body if he demonstrates the desire to become violent towards me or my loved ones. If I feel the need to pull a knife during a self defense situation, the hostile aggressor is bound for a body bag, not a welt or a bruise or an owie.

Have a nice day. :)
 
Eric: GOOD POST..
gads..yes I think we are in more agreement than the rest..
Ok you guys got it from Eric HIMSELF..
He took a knife..made it into what he PERSONALLY wants from a knife..using a "good" knife as his base..Yes he said it was good..
And he made it PERSONALLY into his personal knife..
hmm
Gee I wonder if anyone is going to get what You and I both are saying..?
I had a vision..it needs to be as I did it..Eric has a different vision and he built his knife to his specs..to meet his needs not mine
WONDERFUL..

Eric..go ahead and TAKE the money....do the nasty and make modified Guntings..hmmm I think I actually said that in a previous posting..

the clip is as I designed..no its not exactly where I had it but its close..very close..

thanks for deciding to use the Gunting as your base...

bye guys...

bram

PS: if you wanted a tomahawk you'd better buy a Gunting..you can't carry a real tomahawk..ROFL..
And its taken out scores of bad guys in real time with that tomahawking motion it does so well..
 
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