Hamon = Great Heat Treat?

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Jul 22, 2008
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I see lots of makers doing decent hardening lines on the basic steels. After learning of their HT techniques that go from water, Reused canola oil, ATF, Parks, Interrupted quench, and different temperatures soaks and snake oil etc etc etc... Can it be said that if you get a beautiful hardening line that blade has a great HT... That you got almost the best out of the simple steel? I don't want to talk geometry or tempering ( yes its apart of HT but I'm interested in post quench pre-Temper)
 
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It means you worked real hard to get a temper line in your blade-nothing more.
 
One could argue that a hamon indicates a compromise or going a step further, even a less than optimum heat treat for modern tool steels.:rolleyes: But it sure looks good when done properly.:D
 
I can't say that a hamon equals a good heat treatment, but it's been my experience that if you are trying to get a hamon, and it doesn't show up, that this is an indication of either an incomplete heat treat, or that the clay fell off in the quench and the entire blade hardened. Usually it's the former.
 
The only way you will know is to test a blade to destruction and look at the grain structure inside of the blade at the fracture. When the grain structure in the fracture is reflected in Harmon you will know.
I can develop a beautiful Harmon with nothing more complex than a magic marker.

Even more simple was an unintended Pennzoil Damascus blade that was the result of a little Pennzoil on the surface of our quenchant - ferric chloride - that randomly coated the blade when it was quenched.

You have to learn to read a Harmon!
 
Hamon, Ed, I didn't think it was possible for someone to type with an accent :D


so that oil coated and stuck to the surface of a 1500F blade?
 
That was spell check, never could spell that word.
The Hamon comes from etching. The blade is at room temperature the purpose of etching is to reveal the grain structutre under the surface when honestly developed.
Thanks for noting my accent!!
 
it comes from etching? how do you mean? I understand a hamon as to be the visible line where the soft steel meets the hard steel, I can see mine from just polishing to 120, and even better as I get higher in grit.
 
You are correct, you can see a hamon at 220 and even coarser belts. But if you want to see it with greater definition you can etch it.
Most of the dramatic hamon's have been etched.
Back when I was making Damascus steel from chain saw chain and wire, etc sometimes you could not tell it was Damascus without etching.
Hope this explains what I wanted to say.
Thanks for the questions!
 
what do you mean compromise or less than ideal? Can I get an excellent "hardening line" that's not hard at all? Can I do it with 1400 degree? 1300? 3500? on simple steels like 1095 or w1?
 
The question to ask is what is the objective in your heat treatment? Is it aesthetics, is it optimum blade property development, is it both?

If your sole goal is how striking the hamon can look than it parallels some damascus in many ways, in that there are those who don’t mind pure nickel and other things on the edge since the eye catching contrast is the main thing that quickens their pulse. If the number one priority for you is the shape and boldness of the hardening line, then you can vigorously pursue that aspect without letting optimum microstructures or other properties being a distraction. It really is crucial however that you are totally honest with your customers, but most importantly yourself, if this is the focus of your efforts.

If however the optimizing of microstructure along with the best properties for both edge holding and overall blade strength are your goals, then the intentional pursuit of the opposite in parts of your blade will naturally be a compromise of your ideas. In order to have a traditional hamon you will need to form ductile pearlite in the bulk of the blade; a phase that is the goal of proper heat treating to eliminate as much as possible. Martensite, the fully hardened form of steel, is indisputably the strongest phase possible, so blades with pearlite spines are not stronger, they are more ductile. Ductility simply means the blade will bend instead of breaking, but it will bend with perhaps five to eight times less force required to break a through hardened blade which possesses true strength.

You may, however, walk the middle ground where you are willing to compromise overall blade strength for a visually striking hamon, but still not wish to lose any desired properties at the edge. This is very possible but requires a very good handle on things, along with the highest level of honesty with yourself and others from the first two approaches. You need to have the clarity of thought and the self discipline to resist the temptation of playing with soaks and quenchants in order to bring out the boldest hamon when they could compromise the structures of the edge. It is in the failing of fully understanding this balancing act that hamons can be one of the biggest stumbling blocks in making blades that will live up to the claims of many custom knives. When one feels that water is the only way to get that eye popping hamon and they start under-soaking the steel in order to avoid the hazards of such a quench, they are short changing the optimum condition that steel could have achieved, even at the edge. Some will say that they get better results with eyeballing heat in a forge than using precisely controlled heating equipment, but what they really mean to say is that they get better looking hamons using that method since the optimizing of austenite solution is no longer a distraction. In yeat another area, if that funky shaped hamon can only be achieved by applying the clay in a manner that impinges too much on the full hardening of the edge, the same will naturally suffer. Likewise edge quenching will also present the same threat but on a greater level due to the greatly retarded cooling power of the oil on such a limited area of a very hot piece of steel. And the real challenge to self policing here is that one cannot tell how much fine pearlite is in the edge by looking at the hamon. The hamon only reflects the martensite and coarser pearlite boundary; you need to cross section the edge and find those nasty little fine pearlite colonies with a microscope, or compare the compromised edge performance with one of known optimum quality. And fractured grain examination can only tell you about the two different phases in such a blade, not very much at all about austenite grain size since the mechanisms of fracture are so different between the two. It is a common a tragic mistake made by many beginners in an Intro to Bladesmithing class to compare the coarse looking surface on the spine, the fine smoother looking surface on the edge and start to believe in some sort of edge packing or magic grain refinement. However the grain size will be the same for the entire blade as determined by the heat you applied, just pearlite fractures with more slip and shearing causing a rougher looking surface than the clean cleavage of martensite.

So the hamon may, or may not, be a great heat treatment, but it all depends on what you really want from you heat treatment and how much you are willing to objectively look at and study the results of your efforts.
 
From what I have read, been taught and experienced, a hamon is more aesthetics than a sign of good heat treat. Sure, you have to have proper temperatures to achieve a beautiful hamon but with so metallurgical information pointing to the advantages of a homogenous HT (no hamon), it has to be taken into account. Hamon is a gorgeous result of great bladesmiths doing the best they could with the info they had at the time.



Rick
 
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If you do it right the blade will be easier to bend, but less likely to snap in two than full undifferentiated martensite. Bottom line is,... the two will have different properties, and we can only theorize about which would be preferable under any given set of circumstances or criteria... Or if the difference would even be noticeable under normal use., for what the blade is intended for.

Whether or not hamons “looks good” or are aesthetically pleasing is also equally a matter of personal tastes and preferences. I think it’s a misconception to simply say that hamons in general look good on any or all knives.
 
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Thank you Ed! Kevin! and Tai. I will admit I'm an arm chair smith/collector... I like reading and asking questions before I buy a knife.
 
To say that “hamons look good, but are a sacrifice in performance”, (regardless of an infinite number of possible variables), is an oversimplification and is essentially incorrect.

… But, no.

Hamons don’t equal great heat treating in and of themselves.
 
It's hard to say apart from things like geometry, tempering etc...

However, "IF" everything else were equal, (which they seldom are) then you might be able to say, "it's bendy vs. snappy".

Though, depending a number of variables such as placement of the hamon (high, low, middle), geometry, tempering etc... the difference may or may not be significant or even noticeable in terms of performance, depending on what the blade is intended for and what you do with it.

"IF" everything else is not equal, then it is possible that the blade with the hamon would be harder to bend and more likely to break.
 
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Blade Smiths who etch their blades can use the knowledge revealed by the nature if the hamon as a quick check on their forging and heat treating success or failure.

But you have to know how to read what you see, this only comes through testing, both in the laboratory and in the blade smiths shop.
 
Ed, I'm just curious what you look for in the etch, how you “read” it,… and what types of tests you use?... enlighten us! :)

I do blades all different ways and I guess I don't have a preference one way or another. It just depends on the knife concept, or as I think you once put it, the "what for".

I know it’s not out of the question for a full martensite blade to bend 90 degrees in a vise, or even spring 90 and return to true, depending on the geometry and tempering.

“Great heat treating“, is simply being able to “control” the properties of the finished blade,… which ever way criteria and/or concept dictates.
 
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Wow Tai: That question asks a lot! I will try to answer.
I differential harden my blades. The hardened portion of the blade will be lighter colored than the softer portions of the blade. I like to be able to see the grain structure in all zones running parallel to the blade, the grain will be fine, but distinct when you etch enough to reveal it. I like to see the hardened portion revealed exactly like I planned it to be when I heated the blade with my torch.

If the darker unhardened or less hard area of the blade comes down to the cutting edge I know I failed with my hardening.

I like to be able to see transition zones in the blade, areas that go from lighter to darker parallel to the edge.

You do not have enough mass to get many transition zones in small blades, but with blades 1 inch for deeper from spine to edge I feel I have been successful. The most transition zones I have achieved was 7, when we tested the blade to destruction the differing structure of the steel was obvious in the fracture. The blade made about 12 180 degree flexes. when it started to fail on the last flex it failed in stages, the cutting edge first, then through the second transition zone and on to the top zone that held together, the fracture bifurcated in a Y running parallel to the soft zone and could have been straightened and used again as a knife.

I sent the blade to Rex and he found that the blade demonstrated all we have been seeking.

By etching all my blades I have learned to do a better job of heat treating my way, the etch is very revealing after you have worked with it with your steel.

This is a simplistic answer, but an honest attempt to answer what you asked. A complete answer could fill a book.
 
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