Hamon = Great Heat Treat?

Tai Goo said:
To say that “hamons look good, but are a sacrifice in performance”, (regardless of an infinite number of possible variables), is an oversimplification and is essentially incorrect.

… But, no.

Hamons don’t equal great heat treating in and of themselves.
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I agree with Tai completely on this.
 
I also agree with that statement, it is easy to fake any hamon you want to make, when you learn to read them you know what they are at a glance. Cosmetic Yes - related to function - sometimes.
 
Here’s a recent one of mine, (from some of Don’s W2), I did in fresh canola without using clay or multiple quenches… some crazy mixed up microstructures for sure, but I like it…

It cuts.

TI2c023-2.jpg


TI2h011-1.jpg
 
Ed Fowler said:
Nice job Tai, I see two maybe three zones, this is indicative of an honest etch.
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Or indicative of a poor quenchant!

all politics of quenchants aside, Tai did you edge quench or immerse the whole blade? I see some alloy banding along the edge too?
 
Thanks Ed! :)

Sam, If your questions and comments are not sincere, which I doubt they are judging by all your other posts directed towards Ed and I, on numerous threads in the past,... why should I say anything? I'm sure you think you already know the answers anyway... or don't really even care... I could be making similar types of posts on your threads, or directed towards you and your work, but don't think it's really even worth it. If you are just trying to be cute,... I'll give you that.

I think I'll just leave it a mystery for now.
However, I do have an email address, and offer private lessons at my shop.
 
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An apology in advance for any ignorance or misconceptions on my part. This may be a case of knowing just enough to really mix myself up.

My understanding (based on info read years ago and then forgotten) was that a hamon was the indication of differential hardening in Japanese swords with the goal being for the sword blade to flex instead of snap in combat. My understanding is this was a way to make the sword more durable and provide better performance.

If I recall correctly there were different names for different patterns formed in the hamon. I am curious if one pattern indicated better performance than the other, was more desirable for different use, or was just a cosmetic issue?
 
Burl Source said:
An apology in advance for any ignorance or misconceptions on my part. This may be a case of knowing just enough to really mix myself up.

My understanding (based on info read years ago and then forgotten) was that a hamon was the indication of differential hardening in Japanese swords with the goal being for the sword blade to flex instead of snap in combat. My understanding is this was a way to make the sword more durable and provide better performance.

If I recall correctly there were different names for different patterns formed in the hamon. I am curious if one pattern indicated better performance than the other, was more desirable for different use, or was just a cosmetic issue?
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http://www.ricecracker.com/info/hamon.htm

also here

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm

one is not better than another, it's a stylistic issue.
 
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hako pattern is my Absolute favorite. I am waiting for the day that I see it on a bowie!
 
I really love the look of some of those traditional Japanese hamons. History also shows us that those blades were well tested in terms of performance. I also like some of the more contemporary hamons, when tastefully and thoughtfully done.

I think Ed’s work is particularly interesting and noteworthy, in that he is working with much more modern steel and innovative heat treating methods.

It is rather extraordinary that the same principles of the hamon, still apply and have become part of the modern western culture.
 
petah said:
What can be done to screw the HT and yet produce a REAL hardening line that looks good?
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Poor forging techniques, over heating. But this will usually have a negative
effect on the hamon to some extent.

With any knife purchase (hamon or not), you have to trust the maker. If you don't
know the maker's work, you wont know if the HT is right until you start using the knife.
 
Tai Goo said:
Thanks Ed! :)

Sam, If your questions and comments are not sincere, which I doubt they are judging by all your other posts directed towards Ed and I, on numerous threads in the past,... why should I say anything? I'm sure you think you already know the answers anyway... or don't really even care... I could be making similar types of posts on your threads, or directed towards you and your work, but don't think it's really even worth it. If you are just trying to be cute,... I'll give you that.

I think I'll just leave it a mystery for now.
However, I do have an email address, and offer private lessons at my shop.
Click to expand...

No, you have been genuine of late, while Ed usually isn't they are still towards him but no longer towards you. I like the new Tai goo that has been on the forums lately, more input less pot stirring. I admit I have wanted to like you, but your persona has just been too much.
 
I have done ALOT of testing both in performance, toughness and to destruction and found that for ME, the best way to heat treat is to zone harden. I figure since im doing this , the best way to do it is using clay, and If im using clay I might was well make an attractive "hamon".

I have torture tested MANY blades (have about a 50 lb. box full) of various heat treat methods. Most of the blades I make and test are in the 10"+ range and are 5/16+ thick at the ricasso. I have found that with a proper zone hardened blade I COULD NOT bend it with my bear hands when clamped in a padded jaw vice, about 1/3 of the blade clamped. Having a blade with a full hardened tang/ricasso junction makes me a bit nervous, lots of stress during conversion right there, plus potential for alot more down the road in hard use. Ide prefer to stay with a bit more ductility in that area. I also want a blade that has a hardening line fairly high up the blade, so for lack of fancy terms I have plenty hard steel at and supporting the cutting edge, and enough to make the blade RESIST bending. While I personally am not the best "cutter" out there, im confident in my heat treat methods, and my blades will cut/perform and are as tough as any.

This brings up another and more important question though, as i see alot of folks not hardening enough of the blade in my view. I wont even mention the fact that they will leave the clip on a Bowie or fighter that is meant to be sharp COMPLETELY unhardened, makes me cringe. I cringe equally when i see a big "chopper" with a very low hardening line, say only 1/4" to 3/8" above the edge, just not enough hard steel to get that compromise of toughness, bend resistance, and not hard steel to support the cutting edge properly.


To me a proper "hamon" is more an exercise in control, of both what I want the blade to look like and what "I" prefer in a performance blade.


A "working" finish hamon (400 grit/etch/quick polish)
100_5004.jpg
 
For me, the "optimum" heat treat is a blade that has a properly zone hardened edge, with a more ductile tang/spine.

Even a WAY above average man wont be able to bend a blade like this without mechanical aid, and even then when bent near 90 it will spring back without much set.

This photo is an example of what in my opinion is the optimum heat treat, plenty of edge support and a turn back at the fully hardened clip.

101_3195.jpg
 
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