Handle Grain Orientation

FortyTwoBlades said:
Ash works fine for an axe handle, but it's definitely much more susceptible to delamination than hickory. In Europe, ash and beech are the most commonly used woods for handles, and I find ash to be more springy, which reduces shock transmission to the hands, but you have to be more picky about density and runout on it than beech. Beech, by contrast, takes a beating pretty well, but it passes it along to the hands more in the process.
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Boy for an under-30-years-of-age fellow you sure have accumulated a couple of lifetime's wealth of experience and advice.
 
Lol 300 is back to being grumpy again! ;)

I wonder why this subject keep coming up and frankly, it sort of bugs me... its kind of like asking why we exist... there are dozen of valids reasons but the answer that should automaticaly come to mind is... we simply do, that is how it is, then move on to more productive topic, like HOW to make handle, mayhaps? :)
 
Remzy said:
Lol 300 is back to being grumpy again! ;)

I wonder why this subject keep coming up and frankly, it sort of bugs me... its kind of like asking why we exist... there are dozen of valids reasons but the answer that should automaticaly come to mind is... we simply do, that is how it is, then move on to more productive topic, like HOW to make handle, mayhaps? :)
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Some day I will post pics of my whole process of haft makin'. From the tree selection, to finished helve. I only use horizontal grain for its advantage on certain axes, mainly double bit felling, and bucking axes. I have found that vertical grain is just as efficient on shorter handled axes that are used for mainly chopping or general purpose tasks ,simply because the flex isn't utilized on a shorter haft..
 
Lieblad said:
But most importantly it gives the OCD Axe Perfectionist (what seem to be an epidemic of) something to endlessly obsess on-line about. Too bad their disease seems highly contagious too !

Btw, Neat axe & Nice Demonstration to Mr. Fourtytwo !
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It's a funny thing--we live in an incredible age of information, but the collective emphasis of particular points can become a mantra that drowns out other considerations that are of greater importance. Much like excitement over the fashionable knife steel of the week, which is a phenomenon so strong that it motivates manufacturers to use the material in knives for which it is ill-suited or the geometry not optimized to bring out its potential, all because they know that the buzzword alone will sell it regardless.
 
Here you go folks! Start arguing about the merits of these. Most of you already know which way I steer in this.

axehafts1001Medium_zpse8d8fbe9.jpg

AxehandlesII017Medium_zpsbdf6be3f.jpg

AxehandleII003Medium_zpsd70d2b81.jpg
 
I was in the local museum Saturday. It's a converted RR terminal in a tiny logging town. On the wall, they have a really old Puget Sound Felling pattern axe -- a skinny double bit axe for felling trees. This well-used axe probably came from the '20s, '30s or '40s. The highly weathered haft is intact, but the head is loose. Hard to tell too much because it's bolted upside down to the wall in a dark corner.

I checked out the grain orientation of the haft. It has horizontal grain. So there is at least one heavily used axe that survived with poor grain orientation.

Of course, the loggers then knew how to use their axes. This one requires a special technique so the bit doesn't get stuck in the wood.
 
Twindog said:
I was in the local museum Saturday. It's a converted RR terminal in a tiny logging town. On the wall, they have a really old Puget Sound Felling pattern axe -- a skinny double bit axe for felling trees. This well-used axe probably came from the '20s, '30s or '40s. The highly weathered haft is intact, but the head is loose. Hard to tell too much because it's bolted upside down to the wall in a dark corner.

I checked out the grain orientation of the haft. It has horizontal grain. So there is at least one heavily used axe that survived with poor grain orientation.

Of course, the loggers then knew how to use their axes. This one requires a special technique so the bit doesn't get stuck in the wood.
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Experts didn't need to read "An Axe to Grind" to make a handle....um, I mean living.:)
 
From what I can gather, it's different handles in each of the three pictures.

In photo 1 there's not enough information to make a conclusion, because end grain alignment is only part of the total picture.

In photo 2 it's still difficult to draw a clear conclusion because, while I'd probably go with the one on the left if given the choice based on that photo alone, the one on the right could still be a serviceable enough handle depending on how much of the grain runs end to end. How much more length there is to it is unclear from the single photo.

In photo 3 the one on the right has obvious and egregious runout issues, with the grain appearing to run more than 20° out of line with the handle. Runout is universally a bad thing and minimizing it is preferable. Different users will require different "insurance" levels to protect against accidental impacts, in accordance with their skill and the frequency, intensity, and time with which the tool is used for particular tasks.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
From what I can gather, it's different handles in each of the three pictures.

In photo 1 there's not enough information to make a conclusion, because end grain alignment is only part of the total picture.

In photo 2 it's still difficult to draw a clear conclusion because, while I'd probably go with the one on the left if given the choice based on that photo alone, the one on the right could still be a serviceable enough handle depending on how much of the grain runs end to end. How much more length there is to it is unclear from the single photo.

In photo 3 the one on the right has obvious and egregious runout issues, with the grain appearing to run more than 20° out of line with the handle. Runout is universally a bad thing and minimizing it is preferable. Different users will require different "insurance" levels to protect against accidental impacts, in accordance with their skill and the frequency, intensity, and time with which the tool is used for particular tasks.
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See here, 300, 42 used "egregious" in a sentence. He is one smart cookie! I'd bet he is an attorney by profession, because he nailed those fake pics!
 
Nah--I'm just an INTJ personality. We think too much about pretty much everything. Blessing and a curse. :p
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
So long as overstrikes don't occur you can get by with all sorts of wood not usually considered as worthy for handle material. Birch actually can make a very serviceable handle in a pinch.
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I'd say birch is superior. It feels better in the swing because of how light it is and the shock dissipation is far better than hickory. Many old-timers swore by yellow birch, and that species is quite close to hickory in strength as well.

But horizontal grain would be more of an issue, one I wouldn't trust. Hickory is much stronger horizontal to the grain compared with other woods used for tool handles. If I remember the numbers correctly, hickory only loses 50% horizontally compared to what other woods lose. This may have been a big factor in hickory becoming the dominant tool wood, they could produce a lower grade of tool handle without the same loss in strength and durability.
 
Old Axeman said:
Proper grain orientation is parallel to the wedge kerf slot which is parallel to the bit of the axe. This is well illustrated in "An Ax To Grind".
I used an axe everyday in the private sector for 25 yrs, then for 18 yrs of 20 yrs of Govt. work with the National Park Service and U S Forest Service. During the 18 yrs of Govt work I was in just about every state including Alaska and Hawaii. At every Ranger Station or Park site I was at I always checked out the axes (a lot of axes!) These were mostly double bit and Pulaski. They were used almost daily by trail crews and fire crews.
95% WITH BROKEN HANDLES HADE GRAIN PERPENDICULAR TO THE BIT OF THE AXE AND GRAIN RUN OUT.
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Runout, yes, that is why they broke. Was the other five percent failures due to perpendicular grain orientation alone or runout with proper grain orientation? My guess is on the latter. I really don't see a reason to discard so many handles, since runout can be avoided entirely on straight handles no matter what the orientation, and largely avoided on curved handles with a range of grain orientations. I have been researching the topic a little. One here,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_05.pdf&ved=0CDgQFjAEahUKEwjJ6_CWgIzIAhXDcD4KHRCLANI&usg=AFQjCNEM_yMig3JOCcKhmQXvmDKwQ5-SHQ&sig2=f9spUMgrGof8Y3jygLxQYg suggests that while most woods display orthotropic characteristics, toughness is remarkably similar for hickory (as well as other woods) in either grain orientation. I think toughness would be the overwhelming consideration for a tool like an axe.


Please don't be angry, as I have been hoping to get your view on this since the internet revealed the magic of grain orientation, andI traced the source "scripture" to your manual, which I find quite useful..

Remzy said:
I totaly understand why people usualy think that vertical grain is stronger, im among them. Why? when you see logs dry and crack, they usualy crack along the growth ring, and delaminate more readily along this line which would most likely mean wood fiber is weaker on that axis..., Now, no need to google search image of checked log to prove me wrong, I know this isnt scientific, its just how i see things.

I totally agree that the no-runouts rule is far more important.

Great video Fortytwo
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Some woods actually split radially. Black locust comes to mind, because I see a lot of it. I suspect hickory might be similar.
 
Chignecto Woodsman said:
This may have been a big factor in hickory becoming the dominant tool wood, they could produce a lower grade of tool handle without the same loss in strength and durability.
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I could see that. The economy of it would be a very strong motivating factor for manufacturers. It does seem as though folk were a bit less picky about the specific wood historically, at least. I've seen an old Snow & Nealley catalog listing hickory, maple, and oak as handle options.
 
BG_Farmer said:
Runout, yes, that is why they broke. Was the other five percent failures due to perpendicular grain orientation alone or runout with proper grain orientation? My guess is on the latter. I really don't see a reason to discard so many handles, since runout can be avoided entirely on straight handles no matter what the orientation, and largely avoided on curved handles with a range of grain orientations. I have been researching the topic a little. One here,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_05.pdf&ved=0CDgQFjAEahUKEwjJ6_CWgIzIAhXDcD4KHRCLANI&usg=AFQjCNEM_yMig3JOCcKhmQXvmDKwQ5-SHQ&sig2=f9spUMgrGof8Y3jygLxQYg suggests that while most woods display orthotropic characteristics, toughness is remarkably similar for hickory (as well as other woods) in either grain orientation. I think toughness would be the overwhelming consideration for a tool like an axe.


Please don't be angry, as I have been hoping to get your view on this since the internet revealed the magic of grain orientation, andI traced the source "scripture" to your manual, which I find quite useful..



Some woods actually split radially. Black locust comes to mind, because I see a lot of it. I suspect hickory might be similar.
Click to expand...

Nice link, I'll read through it later!
 
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