Handle Grain Orientation

FortyTwoBlades said:
I could see that. The economy of it would be a very strong motivating factor for manufacturers. It does seem as though folk were a bit less picky about the specific wood historically, at least. I've seen an old Snow & Nealley catalog listing hickory, maple, and oak as handle options.
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Interesting. I may try a maple handle out, it'll definitely make a nice looking handle. Not enough oak here to cut though.
 
I need to correct a typo in my post. The last sentence should have read--95% WITH BROKEN HANDLES HAD GRAIN PERPENDICULAR TO THE BIT OF THE AXE -OR-GRAIN RUN OUT.
 
The problem is that 'stuff' happens. Why not start with the toughest handle you can? That way it's longer before enough stuff happens that a failure occurs.
 
Old Axeman was likely seeing axes that were put hard use for many days. And even though the users were likely highly skilled compaed to the average user, with that kind of usage the failure of a sub par handle is inevitable.

You could argue that perpendicular grain is fine for the average guy who doesn't use his axe that much. But that user is more likely to make a mistake than a skilled Forest Service worker is.

Bottom line, it pays to start with the best handle you can. If you have the choice, select a grain in line with the wedge.
 
The problem largely comes from when people are buying a new axe and condemning it based on the handle not being absolutely perfect, or buying a replacement handle online and then being similarly indignant. If you're at a brick and mortar shop and have the opportunity to rifle through several examples yourself, by all means go for the best you can. It's just that when things are left to chance to a certain degree, then being all fussy about minor flaws in a perfectly serviceable handle is silly. Use it 'til it breaks, then put a better handle on it. You may find that you go your whole life without ever needing to change out the original "flawed" handle, and there are tons of examples of well used vintage axes that attest to it.

Striving for perfection is a worthy goal, but perfection can be hard to find in a mass-manufactured natural product, and just because a handle isn't perfect doesn't necessarily mean that it's not good enough. There's been a large upswing in the number of mostly inexperienced folk (so they don't have the experience in using less-than-perfect axes to realize better) that rigidly demand perfection when they're just going to be using the axe recreationally for camping and other light duties. If using it as a shared professional trail worker's tool then the demands put on it are certainly going to be much higher and therefore higher quality becomes a prerequisite. If you have a handle that's on the lower side of quality without being a truly defective one then I just wouldn't spend much time lavishing it with detail work and use it with the expectation that it might fail at some point. Get a replacement handle ready to go for it so you aren't put out if the thing busts on you while working, and just use the one that's on it until it goes. I have a little 350g Calabria axe with a long skinny (less than 20mm thick at its thickest point) beech handle that has some small knots in it, and yet I've been using it for months without fear of failure because the handle is replaceable. If it breaks, I'll just pop another handle on it.

The way I see it, there's the ideal you strive for and then the actual requirements of the tool. Shoot for the best, but if you fall short of that mark then if it's within the real needs for the tool, then there's not much reason not to live with it. It's the latter part that many seem to struggle with these days and tends to irk me. Everyone likes perfection, but few actually require perfection even though they demand it.
 
There is a saying that I love that can apply to almost any endeavor, and it applies here.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

It essentially means that you should seek out the best, train to be better- these are the goals and worthy ones. But- along the way we need to realize that perfection is not always attainable or practical and that it is OK to realize that something is not "either it's perfect or it's garbage".

I have trained martial arts for most of my adult life. I have met too many people that think if you aren't Bruce Lee you suck. If you are not a 10th degree black belt you suck. What they should be thinking is- is this person capable, fit, healthy through training than they would otherwise be? Have they learned a useful skill? If the answer is yes, and it should be, then the whole process is worthwhile and good.

If you have two handles available and one is better, go with it. If you have one handle that is serviceable, go with it.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
The problem largely comes from when people are buying a new axe and condemning it based on the handle not being absolutely perfect, or buying a replacement handle online and then being similarly indignant. If you're at a brick and mortar shop and have the opportunity to rifle through several examples yourself, by all means go for the best you can. It's just that when things are left to chance to a certain degree, then being all fussy about minor flaws in a perfectly serviceable handle is silly. Use it 'til it breaks, then put a better handle on it. You may find that you go your whole life without ever needing to change out the original "flawed" handle, and there are tons of examples of well used vintage axes that attest to it.

Striving for perfection is a worthy goal, but perfection can be hard to find in a mass-manufactured natural product, and just because a handle isn't perfect doesn't necessarily mean that it's not good enough. There's been a large upswing in the number of mostly inexperienced folk (so they don't have the experience in using less-than-perfect axes to realize better) that rigidly demand perfection when they're just going to be using the axe recreationally for camping and other light duties. If using it as a shared professional trail worker's tool then the demands put on it are certainly going to be much higher and therefore higher quality becomes a prerequisite. If you have a handle that's on the lower side of quality without being a truly defective one then I just wouldn't spend much time lavishing it with detail work and use it with the expectation that it might fail at some point. Get a replacement handle ready to go for it so you aren't put out if the thing busts on you while working, and just use the one that's on it until it goes. I have a little 350g Calabria axe with a long skinny (less than 20mm thick at its thickest point) beech handle that has some small knots in it, and yet I've been using it for months without fear of failure because the handle is replaceable. If it breaks, I'll just pop another handle on it.

The way I see it, there's the ideal you strive for and then the actual requirements of the tool. Shoot for the best, but if you fall short of that mark then if it's within the real needs for the tool, then there's not much reason not to live with it. It's the latter part that many seem to struggle with these days and tends to irk me. Everyone likes perfection, but few actually require perfection even though they demand it.
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Here is less than perfect. Despite the horizontal grain it had less run out than all the others. I will take less run out all ways. It won't last though, they never do, even the ones that look perfect. If that haft was on a finish hammer it would probably never fail me.

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Agreed. I have a vintage Council Tool and the original handle has some decent runout on it. I'm not gonna toss it because of that, for sure. It feels great and looks great. And if it breaks, I'll use it as a template and replace the handle. I like hanging axes, so breaking a handle is low on my list of worries. I always have a few backups anyway!
 
We probably overestimate the skill and/or care for axes that lumbermen displayed. The safety videos are one example. The stupid stuff that Canadian one showed is precisely the sort of thing you would see from some men at times. And it was pretty common to play tricks on others, such as pushing them off a log into the river run. That would be pretty hard on an axe, and there were plenty of these pranks.

Also, throwing your axe across a river, being tired and missing a few swings, general abuse from getting upset or simply because the tool isn't yours. Very common. Some of the axes could have been in the hands of inexperienced users, or used for the more abusive jobs. We don't really know how old these axe handles were either, and once the first ding occurs sometimes people stop caring for the thing and it becomes a beater.

The only scientific approach is to test the force of different types of swings and see how likely that is to break the handle perpendicular or parallel to the grain. One can do this by looking up the toughness, break resistance, and shock resistance of the various woods. In hickory it does not seem as though the force is great enough to break horizontal grain, so it becomes mainly a question of the shock resistance involved and if this causes the wood to thread apart sooner. I'm assuming it would, but I don't think to the extent that I would choose the perfect alignment over a horizontal alignment if there are other benefits (such as shock absorption and popping the chip).

The other issue is thin handles. How thin can you go with horizontal grain? I have one of these old-style handles with exactly horizontal grain and will be using it a lot this fall, so I will see how well it holds up.
 
Chignecto Woodsman said:
We probably overestimate the skill and/or care for axes that lumbermen displayed. The safety videos are one example. The stupid stuff that Canadian one showed is precisely the sort of thing you would see from some men at times. And it was pretty common to play tricks on others, such as pushing them off a log into the river run. That would be pretty hard on an axe, and there were plenty of these pranks.

Also, throwing your axe across a river, being tired and missing a few swings, general abuse from getting upset or simply because the tool isn't yours. Very common. Some of the axes could have been in the hands of inexperienced users, or used for the more abusive jobs. We don't really know how old these axe handles were either, and once the first ding occurs sometimes people stop caring for the thing and it becomes a beater.

The only scientific approach is to test the force of different types of swings and see how likely that is to break the handle perpendicular or parallel to the grain. One can do this by looking up the toughness, break resistance, and shock resistance of the various woods. In hickory it does not seem as though the force is great enough to break horizontal grain, so it becomes mainly a question of the shock resistance involved and if this causes the wood to thread apart sooner. I'm assuming it would, but I don't think to the extent that I would choose the perfect alignment over a horizontal alignment if there are other benefits (such as shock absorption and popping the chip).

The other issue is thin handles. How thin can you go with horizontal grain? I have one of these old-style handles with exactly horizontal grain and will be using it a lot this fall, so I will see how well it holds up.
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My old double bit "user" has a horizontal grained handle. The haft is as perfect as a haft comes because I made it over 20 years ago. It measure's 7/8" thick across the oval. The other 2 examples I've posted of the curved handle axes with horizontal grain measure 3/4" across the oval.

I use my old DB, and I mean use it! When bucking a log I actually keep the momentum of the swing going, or should be called follow through, I guess. This causes the haft to flex and the kinetic energy pops the chip. That "snap" is the advantage the user gets from the grain oriented horizontally! Do I worry about breaking my haft by using it this way? NO! I don't give that haft failing me a second thought, because it won't, as I understand hickory's inherent properties.
 
quinton said:
My old double bit "user" has a horizontal grained handle. The haft is as perfect as a haft comes because I made it over 20 years ago. It measure's 7/8" thick across the oval. The other 2 examples I've posted of the curved handle axes with horizontal grain measure 3/4" across the oval.

I use my old DB, and I mean use it! When bucking a log I actually keep the momentum of the swing going, or should be called follow through, I guess. This causes the haft to flex and the kinetic energy pops the chip. That "snap" is the advantage the user gets from the grain oriented horizontally! Do I worry about breaking my haft by using it this way? NO! I don't give that haft failing me a second thought, because it won't, as I understand hickory's inherent properties.
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I haven't seen any failures of my double bit with supposedly horrible grain either and it started life with me 30 something years ago, when I was less circumspect. I did even throw the thing and stick it in a tree some times when I was able to do such things, hate to admit it now. TV and youth make for bad decisions...I could have been a timber sport.

I'm not sure we should concede yet! Going far afield but to a relevant place, it looks to me like "horizontal" grain is the preferred orientation for bow staves. If correct, that tells me that flexibility and toughness are likely better that way. That could have important bearing on axe handles as well. Strength, in itself, will be adequate in either way in something made of a thicker section of hickory like an axe handle.
 
Square_peg said:
Old Axeman was likely seeing axes that were put hard use for many days. And even though the users were likely highly skilled compaed to the average user, with that kind of usage the failure of a sub par handle is inevitable.

You could argue that perpendicular grain is fine for the average guy who doesn't use his axe that much. But that user is more likely to make a mistake than a skilled Forest Service worker is.

Bottom line, it pays to start with the best handle you can. If you have the choice, select a grain in line with the wedge.
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Horizontal grain is just as tough as vertical. I know, I've used them both..
Basically, what I have been saying is the older generation understood hickory(hell, they understood everything woodsy) and exploited its inherent properties.. Just like this quote from, Twindog in this thread.
I was in the local museum Saturday. It's a converted RR terminal in a tiny logging town. On the wall, they have a really old Puget Sound Felling pattern axe -- a skinny double bit axe for felling trees. This well-used axe probably came from the '20s, '30s or '40s. The highly weathered haft is intact, but the head is loose. Hard to tell too much because it's bolted upside down to the wall in a dark corner.

I checked out the grain orientation of the haft. It has horizontal grain. So there is at least one heavily used axe that survived with poor grain orientation.

Of course, the loggers then knew how to use their axes. This one requires a special technique so the bit doesn't get stuck in the wood.
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That very important axe was hafted with "horizontal grain".. Was this just a mistake? I think not! I think that axe was professionally hafted by a craftsman that knew exactly what he was doing.. To many old timers have told me about horizontal grain, and I have come across way to many really old helves with the same. Don't knock it until you try it.
 
BG_Farmer said:
I haven't seen any failures of my double bit with supposedly horrible grain either and it started life with me 30 something years ago, when I was less circumspect. I did even throw the thing and stick it in a tree some times when I was able to do such things, hate to admit it now. TV and youth make for bad decisions...I could have been a timber sport.

I'm not sure we should concede yet! Going far afield but to a relevant place, it looks to me like "horizontal" grain is the preferred orientation for bow staves. If correct, that tells me that flexibility and toughness are likely better that way. That could have important bearing on axe handles as well. Strength, in itself, will be adequate in either way in something made of a thicker section of hickory like an axe handle.
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I think the section on haft selection in "An Axe to Grind" needs to be edited to include the truth! Horizontal grain aka, "horrible grain" by those who were indoctrinated by this manual, is a very important part of this nations axe history!
 
I think there would be less problem with a straight haft like on a double bit either way. On a very curvy single bit handle though, it's pretty hard to do horizontal grain without having grain runout.
 
quinton said:
I think the section on haft selection in "An Axe to Grind" needs to be edited to include the truth! Horizontal grain aka, "horrible grain" by those who were indoctrinated by this manual, is a very important part of this nations axe history!
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I hate to bring it up and muddy the waters, but as I am sure you are well aware grain is different than just following the growth rings. We can't violate growth rings with out violating the grain, but just because a haft doesn't show growth ring violation doesn't mean its following the grain.

To help illustrate my point this is an end of a bow. It follows the grain. The grain runs through the wood and around the knots like a boulder a in a stream.

We mostly judge axe handles be the growth rings but there is more to it than that. Axes handles made from hand rived staves would be the best way to go.

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garry3 said:
I hate to bring it up and muddy the waters, but as I am sure you are well aware grain is different than just following the growth rings. We can't violate growth rings with out violating the grain, but just because a haft doesn't show growth ring violation doesn't mean its following the grain.

To help illustrate my point this is an end of a bow. It follows the grain. The grain runs through the wood and around the knots like a boulder a in a stream.

We mostly judge axe handles be the growth rings but there is more to it than that. Axes handles made from hand rived staves would be the best way to go.

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I fully understand what you are saying about grain, just don't get what you are saying? If time allows, please expand on this.

I rive my staves, so I am following the grain. The only time grain is violated is in shaping the haft from the stave.
 
quinton said:
I think the section on haft selection in "An Axe to Grind" needs to be edited to include the truth! Horizontal grain aka, "horrible grain" by those who were indoctrinated by this manual, is a very important part of this nations axe history!
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I agree. At the very least it should be modified to be more informative. Runout is the real problem, and I don't think a handle without it will break regardless of grain orientation, except with other defect or under extreme abuse. Vertical grain may help avoid runout with highly curved handle, but there can still be run out the other plane, as the one in 42's video shows even on a straight handle. At this point I'm still inclined to believe horizontal grain may be superior in some respects if it can be used without significant runout.

Just to be realistic, though, we have bunches of internet users who accept the "Axe to Grind" edicts without question or thought. They can look at the ends or side of a handle and make a judgement, right or wrong! While I think the people here are sincere, experienced, and thoughful, even those who support vertical grain only, the majority of axe users on the internet are none of those; they simply quote a book. I suspect few will be able to understand or accept a more complex guideline.
 
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