Handle Grain Orientation

WOW, I guess I just did not know how many axe experts were out there when the U S Forest Service had me write and make the video "An Axe To Grind"
Bernie Weisgerber
 
Old Axeman said:
WOW, I guess I just did not know how many axe experts were out there when the U S Forest Service had me write and make the video "An Axe To Grind"
Bernie Weisgerber
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That's ironic..axe experts were few and far between before, now they're everywhere!..:D
 
I still see horizontal grain orientation as a weakness, more so for curved handles. Most single-bit axe handles will be curved and have well pronounced shoulders and belly. So with horizontal grain orientation, you can't avoid grain runout on key places on the haft. You can still get grain runout with vertical grain orientation, but that runout will be on the side of the axe, not the front and back.

Grain runout, it seems to me, makes a haft more prone to breakage when it is horizontal along the front and back sides of the haft, compared to runout that is along the sides and parallel to the head.
 
Old Axeman said:
WOW, I guess I just did not know how many axe experts were out there when the U S Forest Service had me write and make the video "An Axe To Grind"
Bernie Weisgerber
Click to expand...

Google and subscribing to these types of forums have largely done that. In reality there still aren't very many real experts out there. Opinionated experts, though, have become a dime a dozen.
 
quinton said:
I fully understand what you are saying about grain, just don't get what you are saying? If time allows, please expand on this.

I rive my staves, so I am following the grain. The only time grain is violated is in shaping the haft from the stave.
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We can have a handle that shows no growth ring run out but it still might be some ways off in following the grain.

It is easier to show a picture than to articulate it.

If this is a plain sawn board that followed the grain perfectly(they don't) and the handle is laid out contrary to the grain it would still show no growth ring run out.

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If we look at broken handles they will usually split following the growth ring and separate between the rings following the early wood. The vertical grain is less likely to do this, particularly when we consider the machine made less than perfect mass produced handles.

With Quinton's hand made a rived handles this might be a non-issue.

I do know that the vertical grain is stiffer and less flexible.
 
i'd love to get my hamds on some Black Locust.
just need to talk to an Amish logger or two.
i'll report back in a year or so.

buzz
 
Black locust is prone to weather checking so you'd need to watch the humidity shifts and dry it really slow.
 
garry3 said:
I do know that the vertical grain is stiffer and less flexible.
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This is what the older generation were after in a full sized felling axe. They fully understood and used hickory to its full potential.."springy hickory" that I've seen on some older handles comes to mind.

I'm with you-- handles with horizontal grain from sawn stock may not be an option because of the runout issue.
 
Bucking a log and popping a chip with an axe is bucking a log and popping a chip, no matter what your reason for doing it is. ALL timber sports competitors use vertical grain hickory handles. Many of them make their own. So, do you horizontal grain and/or non hickory axe experts know something the best in world dont know ?
If you go to the woods to work with an axe go with the best so you have a successful and safe day.
 
Competition cutting is not the same as utility cutting. The way the tool is shaped and tuned are all to make it perform the best possible within the specific context of the competition. Competition versions of cutting tools often look drastically different from their standard counterparts and would typically be tiring or uncomfortable to use outside of the realm of competition cutting.

Again, that's not to say that horizontal grain is better than vertical grain or vice versa...rather more specifically that there may be circumstances where one is preferable to the other, and others still where it makes but little difference.
 
300Six said:
Google and subscribing to these types of forums have largely done that. In reality there still aren't very many real experts out there. Opinionated experts, though, have become a dime a dozen.
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So very right, 300! Here's the difference-- Experts can tell you how, but that would be subjective to their opinion.. Masters can show you how, but that would be objective as to your opinion, and opinions are subjective. Don't even get me started on specialist' :eek:
 
Old Axeman said:
Bucking a log and popping a chip with an axe is bucking a log and popping a chip, no matter what your reason for doing it is. ALL timber sports competitors use vertical grain hickory handles. Many of them make their own. So, do you horizontal grain and/or non hickory axe experts know something the best in world dont know ?
If you go to the woods to work with an axe go with the best so you have a successful and safe day.
Click to expand...

The best in the world? I would call them specialized athletes, with specialized axes-- WAY different than a logger heading into the woods before daybreak and not returning till dark. Didn't modern "timber sports" come along after "An Axe to Grind"?:D
 
Of course competition chopping is specialized, but the issue is handles. Tell me how bucking a log and popping the chip with an axe is different as it relates to the handles.
It must be true, there was no real knowledge before the internet. Yes, timber sports have been around since men went into the woods to make a living. Lets see, "An Ax To Grind" was 1999. I traveled and competed in timber sports for money and prizes from 1967 - 1983. quinton, where have you been before you found the internet?
 
Old Axeman said:
Of course competition chopping is specialized, but the issue is handles. Tell me how bucking a log and popping the chip with an axe is different as it relates to the handles.
It must be true, there was no real knowledge before the internet. Yes, timber sports have been around since men went into the woods to make a living. Lets see, "An Ax To Grind" was 1999. I traveled and competed in timber sports for money and prizes from 1967 - 1983. quinton, where have you been before you found the internet?
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Not a wise crack, Bernie.. But I was making a living mainly in the building trade, and farming. I grew up around loggers and horse men. Not the fancy type of horses, just mountain horses used as a tractor would be used these days. The internet is fairly new to me. I have been using it for about 7 or 8 years.. It is a wonderful way to learn and share knowledge..but one must have thick skin.:)
 
Sorry, Bernie. I neglected to answer the first question. And that would be, The springiness of the horizontal grain works with your swing momentum to help pop the chip. Remember, most users agree a thin haft is superior, horizontal grain just takes it to the next level!
 
From what I understand, on very thin handles horizontal grain is preferred by some to prevent the axe from having excessive lateral flexibility.
 
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