Handle Grain Orientation

[garry3]

I will dispute that. Pinch still happens with air dried wood. Last couple years we've been air drying a lot of lumber. We still occasionally get pinch on the table saw.

That one stuck out like a sore thumb to me also Square peg.

I have worked with a little bit of air dried yew wood(others also). That stuff can be subject to all kinds of stresses growing underneath the canopy of old growth trees(fallen limbs most likely). It can move all over the place as you remove wood.

 

[rjdankert]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/G...opzKXZvp3qQiv1cu8uijkmzTLa4rq0Q=w1078-h721-no

 

[quinton]

I could see how that could happen. Cross grain is a term describing how the grain runs through a piece of stock.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cross-grained :
"cross-grained (krôs′grānd′, krŏs′-)
adj.
1. Having an irregular, transverse, or diagonal grain, as opposed to a parallel grain."

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_grain :
"The two basic categories of grain are straight and cross grain. Straight grain runs parallel to the longitudinal axis of the piece. Cross grain deviates from the longitudinal axis in two ways, spiral grain or diagonal grain."

I have assumed the discussion is about STRAIGHT GRAINED handles in axe heads. Which is better, orientation #1 or #2?:

I could see how number two above might be called "cross grain" because the grain runs across the width of the head.

Bob

That article was from around 1910, by an organization known as, The National Hickory Association. I can see very well how the term they used for runout in hickory spokes could have started influencing the axe people for generations to come.

As far as the grain orientation question goes, since it is a trick question, I'll give a trick answer. Assuming there is no cross grain, one is almost as good as the other..

 

[300Six]

As far as the grain orientation question goes, since it is a trick question, I'll give a trick answer. Assuming there is no cross grain, one is almost as good as the other..

Current store-bought laminated-wood Hockey sticks in Canada go from one way to the other (horizontal or vertical grain) and neither is perfect but as you say
shaft 'grain runout' is what truly separates the men from from the boys.
Guaranteed when Bobby Hull invented the 'slap shot' 50 years ago that he was using a diagonal cross grain stick (best of both worlds) and Sherbrooke (or whoever was his stick supplier at the time) made darn sure there was no wood grain runout along the shaft.

 

[quinton]

Current store-bought laminated-wood Hockey sticks in Canada go from one way to the other (horizontal or vertical grain) and neither is perfect but as you say
shaft 'grain runout' is what truly separates the men from from the boys.
Guaranteed when Bobby Hull invented the 'slap shot' 50 years ago that he was using a diagonal cross grain stick (best of both worlds) and Sherbrooke (or whoever was his stick supplier at the time) made darn sure there was no wood grain runout along the shaft.

I've never worried over grain orientation in an axe handle because I grew up using homemade, riven, white hickory handles, as I have stated earlier, they basically don't fail! The only handles I've ever saw splintered, and unusable were "brought on" hardware store handles. I realize now that most were not as lucky as me growing up in the woods with prime hickory most anywhere you looked. Plus, I had an older generation of axe men who tutored me, especially in tree selection, and haft making.. A good axe was always very near to them, and was essential to life...PERIOD.

Either grain orientation is just as good, and as durable as the other for most axe users. But, as you stated above, some knew how to exploit the unique differences in grain orientation to their advantage.

Because of, Bernie's observations of haft failures over the years that he has brought to light in this thread, I'm wanting to stress some hickory samples to the point of failure, both kiln dried, and air dried stock. I have always known runout was one of the biggest problems in manufactured handles. But, I never really thought kiln drying wood could make it as brittle, and inferior as I suspect at this point.

 

[marbat]

This topic while informative at the beginning is starting to be like beating a dead horse with a stick. I think we get it now, some like horizontal, some like me prefer vertical. There will be failures in both.

 

[quinton]

This topic while informative at the beginning is starting to be like beating a dead horse with a stick. I think we get it now, some like horizontal, some like me prefer vertical. There will be failures in both.

According to most, the topic was a dead horse before discussion began. Over the years I have learned strategies for dealing with dead horses, like;
1.Buying a stronger stick. (horizontal grained hickory comes to mind)
2.Changing riders.
3.Saying things like "This is the way we always have ridden this horse."
4.Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
5.Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
6.Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
7.Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
8.Comparing the state of dead horses in today's environment.
9.Pass legislation declaring that "This horse is not dead."
10.Blaming the horse's parents.
11.Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
12.Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
13.Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
14.Do a Cost Analysis to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
15.Procure a commercial design dead horse.
16.Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
17.Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
18.Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
19.Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
20.BRAC the horse farm on which it was born.
21.Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position

 

[markv]

This topic while informative at the beginning is starting to be like beating a dead horse with a stick. I think we get it now, some like horizontal, some like me prefer vertical. There will be failures in both.

what i was thinking too.
but i guess this thread served a purpose.

 

[300Six]

Because of, Bernie's observations of haft failures over the years that he has brought to light in this thread, I'm wanting to stress some hickory samples to the point of failure, both kiln dried, and air dried stock. I have always known runout was one of the biggest problems in manufactured handles. But, I never really thought kiln drying wood could make it as brittle, and inferior as I suspect at this point.

A renowned canoe paddle maker that I befriended 35 years ago only used air-dried cherry/ash/basswood and maple blanks. He refused to use kiln dried material even though it was faster, easier and cheaper to obtain. He said the strength, and especially the flexibility, of wood noticeably diminishes via forced (ie ruptured/damaged cell walls) expulsion of moisture. And I had (and still have) good reason to believe him because he was 70 years old at the time and had worked with wood all his life.

 

[quinton]

A renowned canoe paddle maker that I befriended 35 years ago only used air-dried cherry/ash/basswood and maple blanks. He refused to use kiln dried material even though it was faster, easier and cheaper to obtain. He said the strength, and especially the flexibility, of wood noticeably diminishes via forced (ie ruptured/damaged cell walls) expulsion of moisture. And I had (and still have) good reason to believe him because he was 70 years old at the time and had worked with wood all his life.

I think your old, paddle maker friend is right about kiln dried stock.

I've made many handles from air dried hickory over the years, and I have thinned several purchased handles in that time. There is quite a difference in how the hickory works between the two, and also the look and feel are different. Air dried hickory just feels "alive", kiln dried feels dead! Kiln dried hickory may be the reason handles "had" to get thicker over the years!

 

[300Six]

I think your old, paddle maker friend is right about kiln dried stock.

Kiln dried hickory may be the reason handles "had" to get thicker over the years!

Possible but even more likely is the very litigation conscious manufacturing sector against injuries due to defects, and likely also due to the general decline in quality control. Folks with a trained, dedicated and experienced eye for grading wood have become scarce as hen's teeth. Probably more so these days because of the meager wages involved and lack of job security.

 

[Twindog]

Here’s a hatchet with horizontal grain and a kind of odd way to attach the head. The half-driven steel wedge is driven in with the grain, and you can see that the haft is already starting to split.

http://www.garrettwade.com/japanese-hand-axe/p/11P23.06/

 

[quinton]

Rock-paper-scissors.. Steel splits wood every time!

 

[Twindog]

Rock-paper-scissors.. Steel splits wood every time!

Well, with a wood wedge, you have a kerf to prevent splitting. The steel wedge has no kerf to prevent a split, and when you drive the steel wedge in parallel to the grain, a split is a likely outcome.

I have a beautiful Japanese hatchet that came with a steel wedge. The wedge was driven in perpendicular to the eye (and the grain). But that wedge still split the beech handle down to about an inch below the eye. I had to drill three holes in the split -- one at the end of the split -- and fill them with glue. There was no wood wedge and no kerf.

 

[300Six]

Here’s a hatchet with horizontal grain and a kind of odd way to attach the head. The half-driven steel wedge is driven in with the grain, and you can see that the haft is already starting to split.

http://www.garrettwade.com/japanese-hand-axe/p/11P23.06/

Perfect horizontal too! Betcha that handle is straight, instead of curved, though. Plus you'd have to do something crazy to 'overstrike' with that type of head design. A carver's tool and not a forest axe or a splitter.

 

[300Six]

Found this abandoned axe (with MNR (Ministry of Natural Resources) stamps all over it) at a Crown Land forestry site last week. The handle end grain is 'near perfect' horizontal. It's not too difficult to see from this wood failure why it is that curved hafts should not use horizontal-oriented wood.

 

[markv]

0SIX,
hey, how about hanging a new handle on that old chopper?

buzz

 

[Square_peg]

Found this abandoned axe (with MNR (Ministry of Natural Resources) stamps all over it) at a Crown Land forestry site last week. The handle end grain is 'near perfect' horizontal. It's not too difficult to see from this wood failure why it is that curved hafts should not use horizontal-oriented wood.

Have you ever been the guy swinging one of those when the first crack appeared? On impact the crack opens up just enough to let a little of your flesh in. Then it closes when the force is removed and pinches the hell out of your hand giving you a nasty blood blister. I've had a couple of those.

 

[300Six]

0SIX,
hey, how about hanging a new handle on that old chopper?

buzz

Governments used to be fussy about implement specs and purchase orders but this one must have been procured through lowest bidder or field worker's hasty purchase. The unclipped haft suggests it to be at least 30 years old but the head is rather light (1 3/4 lb?) flat-cheeked and is not maker stamped. Plus some busybody thought it was a good idea to varnish the head and drill a hole through it for a nail. The orange painted collar at the shoulder is a novel touch. I was going to leave it behind but then realized it was a pretty much a 'dead' tool anyway.

 

[300Six]

Have you ever been the guy swinging one of those when the first crack appeared? On impact the crack opens up just enough to let a little of your flesh in. Then it closes when the force is removed and pinches the hell out of your hand giving you a nasty blood blister. I've had a couple of those.

Been there done that! You quickly learn to run a gloved hand over whatever axe has just been issued to you out of the tool crib and reject any one with a sliver showing. It's much easier to turn in a slightly cracked axe at the end of the day then it is for the next user to explain how he/she managed to break it so fast. Also if you're observant at an event such as this it starts you down the path of noticing the properties of knots, wood grain and runout.