Handle Grain Orientation

[Chignecto Woodsman]

Some will be disappointed with the direction the thread has taken, but it could have been worse:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-genitals-classroom-experiment-went-awry.html

Science!

 

[quinton]

On thick or thin handles..
Wood, any wood is only as strong as its weakest point. That point on an axe haft is 5/8" where it enters the bottom of the eye..

 

[Steve Tall]

...

...

The length and width proportions look off, like they were shrunk unevenly to fit the page.
Using the dimensions given in the instructions, I made a quick sketch to scale (one block = one inch):

 

[quinton]

Here's another source, and it contradicts the 1905 article from Australia that I posted earlier in this thread. This one dates back to 1860:

The Young Farmer's Manual, by S.E. Todd, 1860, p. 278

Note that these instructions say to put the poll side of the handle (E) toward the bark, and the bit side of the handle (D) toward the heart of the tree. Otherwise, if the handle warps ("springs"), a sideways warp would make the handle unuseable.

This is pretty similar to the Roy Underhill quote: "I prefer to orient the grain of the axe helve so that the growth rings run at right angles to its width, bark side toward the poll, heart side to the bit. If the growth rings are oriented in line with the direction of the swing, the helve will occasionally develop an undesirable curve to the side."

I also think it's notable that in contrast to the other sources that present THE right way to do it, Roy Underhill tells us his preference.

Thanks again, Steve!

Looks to me through history, it has always been a hot topic!

 

[quinton]

For historical (and cross-cultural) reference, this illustration looks like it could have come out of "An Ax to Grind", but it's from a 1905 publication in Australia:

The author's reasoning for this hard-and-fast rule:

- All wood is harder to break at right angles to the rings (and easier to break when striking parallel to the rings).
- Handles made from sawn lumber with "the wrong grain" are liable to crack when strained (see Fig. 14).
- If the handle is broken at work, then you might have to go ten miles to get a new one.
- A lot of time is lost by taking out the old handle and putting in the new one.
- When chopping a big tree, there could be an unexpected hollow that the axe head penetrates into, causing a weaker handle to break when it hits the trunk (and losing the axe head as it falls down into the hollow).

The author also advises against a handle having both light and dark colored wood, saying that if you're offered such a handle by a storekeeper, "throw it at him, as the colours will separate when worked..." (A later publication by the USFS disagrees with the prejudice against heartwood in handles).

If a new axe has a bad handle, he advises to use it, and if the handle breaks, then replace it with a good one. If you are "extra particular" you can replace the handle right away.

"It is a curious thing that a good axe in the shop nearly always has a bad grained handle in it. The only way to do then is to use the bad handle till it breaks and then put in a good one. You can of course take the handle out and give it away if extra particular."


Also covered is the use of crosscut saws.

from
The Settler's Guide, by Robert Kaleski
Agricultural Gazette of N.S.W.
Jan. 3, 1905

But, on second thought, hickory is not native to Australia... Hum???

 

[marbat]

Oldaxeman I'd rather listen to what you have to say then some on here. So don't go away.

Maybe we should all go with angle grain. LOL

 

[BG_Farmer]

But, on second thought, hickory is not native to Australia... Hum???

I think you are getting warm, but I thought you surrendered, already .

Thanks for bringing the bat thing up. I think it is very relevant, particularly to overstrikes!

I looked into this also. If I understand correctly, the old practice of striking with the edge grain was to prevent delamination of ash bats, but when maple came along, the bats started breaking with that orientation and were found to be more resistant to breakage when rotated 90 degrees. I immediately thought that was relevant, but I haven't studied it enough to decide whether hickory is more like ash or maple, which I know sounds stupid, as hickory is classified ring porous like ash, but delving into it, it seems like it resists delamination and is in a completely different subgroup from ash. What are your thoughts?

Go to www.woodbat.org and see what they say about grain orientation, and they have done actual testing as well. See what you think.

PS. Qoteded is my response to GBen who brought up the topic. I've seen references since to the effect that hickory is more "nearly semi ring porous". I don't think growth ring separation is an issue with hickory, or at least never saw it, but you would know better.

 

[Steve Tall]

But, on second thought, hickory is not native to Australia... Hum???

A few years before the date of that article, there was a debate in the Australian parliament about whether the imported hickory axe handles should be "duty-free" because they are so important. Hickory billets were already duty-free, so presumably it was availably for making axe handles, but it was argued that in Australia, an axe handle could not be made as well (or as cheaply) as the handles made by machines in America. The motion passed (for duty-free hickory axe handles, in addition to duty-free hickory billets).

Commonwealth of Austrialia Parliamentary Debates, Vol. XI, 1902, page 14332

 

[Old Axeman]

quinton is at least right about one thing. I am not done with this. Everybody agrees runout is the problem. So you say "horizontal grain is really only an option in a handmade haft of select, riven hickory". Lets take a look at riven hickory in the curved S B handles you show us all the time. First, hickory grows very straight in the clear (no branches or knots) section of the tree. You can only rive to follow the grain. Anyone who has ever riven wood knows that. To get your riven curved horizontal grain haft you would have to find a stick with exactly the curve and size you need. Very very unlikley. Since this option is out you have to put a saw or a blade ( drawknife or spokeshave) to your riven stick. Do tell us how you can do that without making runout with horizontal grain. This is one of the reasons I put straight handles on S B axes. Now if you use vertical grain you could put a blade to the stick. If you used a straight, vertical grain handle (sound familiar) you can also put a slim profile so you get the flex you are always talking about. And dont tell us to steam the curves into the haft, it dosent work. What say you horizontal boys?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Hickory isn't the only acceptable wood for an axe handle, especially when making your own, and most single bit curved handles are not nearly so dramatically curved as to cause significant runout when using straight grain. Curved handles are not always a necessity, either, and straight handles are perfectly viable. It may even be that differing opinions regarding ideal grain alignment colors the debate over curved vs. straight handles that's been raging since time immemorial (curved handles go back at least to the Bronze Age, if not even earlier.)


I'm pretty sure that what you were citing was meant to be taken as the theoretical requirement rather than practical ones.

For the record, I'm only playing devil's advocate here because I think it's an interesting topic of debate. I have no dog in this fight and personally don't care much about grain alignment so long as runout is minimal and the wood itself is good quality.

 

[quinton]

quinton is at least right about one thing. I am not done with this. Everybody agrees runout is the problem. So you say "horizontal grain is really only an option in a handmade haft of select, riven hickory". Lets take a look at riven hickory in the curved S B handles you show us all the time. First, hickory grows very straight in the clear (no branches or knots) section of the tree. You can only rive to follow the grain. Anyone who has ever riven wood knows that. To get your riven curved horizontal grain haft you would have to find a stick with exactly the curve and size you need. Very very unlikley. Since this option is out you have to put a saw or a blade ( drawknife or spokeshave) to your riven stick. Do tell us how you can do that without making runout with horizontal grain. This is one of the reasons I put straight handles on S B axes. Now if you use vertical grain you could put a blade to the stick. If you used a straight, vertical grain handle (sound familiar) you can also put a slim profile so you get the flex you are always talking about. And dont tell us to steam the curves into the haft, it dosent work. What say you horizontal boys?

I'm right about TWO things, Bernie. I knew you wouldn't quit the debate,(your username should have been "Old Hickory") and the virtues of horizontal grain have been around WAY longer than you, and I, as evidenced by the information, Steve Tall has posted..So, now we can not say the old timers I learned from were "wrong", as many old timers believed in horizontal grain!

Grain orientation preferences and the ensuing debate likely began with the invent of the modern tapered axe eye.. Who's to say one is wrong, and one is right? I'm not stupid, though I argue for horizontal grain, I realize both grain orientations have their place, and virtues. There are decades old surviving examples of both grain orientations on straight, and curved helves. If there were stories of "catastrophic" failures of horizontal grain in curved helves from the heyday of the axe, I'm sure we would not be having this discussion now..anyhoo..

I've already addressed the runout on "riven" single bit handles. I say that tiny amount of runout is negligible to the strength, or durability, even in a moderately curved single bit helve!

You are also right about putting a slim profile on a vertical grain helve to get flex, but, "flex" is not the same as "snap", and I don't mean "snap" as in handle failure! As you already know, different grain orientations react differently to loads. Think of a bastard sawn 2x6 supported under each end. If it was placed flat ways it would make a very fun spring board if jumped on. This grain direction would also represent vertical grain alignment in a helve, it would have "flex". Now, turn the 2x6 on its edge, and jump on it, you would find it would have "snap" that was more "jarring" than fun! This would represent horizontal grain in a helve, and the "snap" I'm talking about..

Here is something else I've noticed over the years.. Homemade handles from riven white hickory just don't fail! I don't think I've ever seen one fail. I've seen them abused beyond belief, but never have "I" seen one in two separate pieces. I truly believe I could make a horizontal grained helve, and send you to the woods with orders to bring it back to me in 2 separate pieces, and without the help of tools, you could not do it!

Here's where I'm going with this; Of the helves I've seen failed for basically no reason, ALL were manufactured helves, and ALL were FIRE TEMPERED. Tempering hickory does work, it definitely makes the wood harder. I also tend to think that heating the wood can cause premature, or unexpected failure. This would be caused by the moisture content within the wood. When heated, the moisture turns to steam, and builds pressure within the helve that causes the grain to start separating. This would lead to helve failure.. Fire tempered helves are the only ones I have ever seen completely delaminate along the grain. I could tell you how to quickly create an experiment to support my theory, but, you're wife would ban you from using the microwave

 

[quinton]

I think you are getting warm, but I thought you surrendered, already .



Go to www.woodbat.org and see what they say about grain orientation, and they have done actual testing as well. See what you think.

PS. Qoteded is my response to GBen who brought up the topic. I've seen references since to the effect that hickory is more "nearly semi ring porous". I don't think growth ring separation is an issue with hickory, or at least never saw it, but you would know better.

I have addressed that separation in my post to, Bernie. I have never saw it in homemade handles either, and think it may have something to do with flame tempering.

I think hickory is more semi ring porous, than ring porous. This is one reason a spokeshave is of little or no value when working with the wood. Even on riven, straight grained hickory, tear out is WAY more common than curls.

 

[Twindog]

Here’s an interesting discussion on wooden wheel spokes used on old cars. Hickory was the choice of wood because of its strength and flexibility.

Vertical grain orientation still seems to be the key to avoiding breakage, but with spokes you have multiple force vectors, whether from bumps, braking, acceleration or cornering.

With axe hafts, vertical grain orientation is best, but it isn’t enough. We have to also consider grain slope, which will cause grain runout on hafts, whether the grain is vertically or horizontally oriented.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/256536.html?1325167212

 

[quinton]

A few years before the date of that article, there was a debate in the Australian parliament about whether the imported hickory axe handles should be "duty-free" because they are so important. Hickory billets were already duty-free, so presumably it was availably for making axe handles, but it was argued that in Australia, an axe handle could not be made as well (or as cheaply) as the handles made by machines in America. The motion passed (for duty-free hickory axe handles, in addition to duty-free hickory billets).

Commonwealth of Austrialia Parliamentary Debates, Vol. XI, 1902, page 14332

I "feel" like the first paragraph in your quoted references is supporting my preference in horizontally grained felling axes. The author is saying that; "a good axe handle enables a man to do twice the work"in a given time as he could do with an inferior handle. The author says nothing about handle failure, only "inferior"? He also goes on to say; "white hickory with a good spring", I interpret "spring" to be the advantage I have stressed all along in this debate. I have known for some time horizontal grain in a bucking and felling axe is more comfortable to use, works better, and is more efficient than vertical grain, leading to increased output, but I would not think that it would be double the work output..

 

[quinton]

Here’s an interesting discussion on wooden wheel spokes used on old cars. Hickory was the choice of wood because of its strength and flexibility.

Vertical grain orientation still seems to be the key to avoiding breakage, but with spokes you have multiple force vectors, whether from bumps, braking, acceleration or cornering.

With axe hafts, vertical grain orientation is best, but it isn’t enough. We have to also consider grain slope, which will cause grain runout on hafts, whether the grain is vertically or horizontally oriented.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/256536.html?1325167212

The spokes are supporting my argument for Popping the chip with a horizontally grained axe handle.

 

[Steve Tall]

I "feel" like the first paragraph in your quoted references is supporting my preference in horizontally grained felling axes. The author is saying that; "a good axe handle enables a man to do twice the work"in a given time as he could do with an inferior handle. The author says nothing about handle failure, only "inferior"? He also goes on to say; "white hickory with a good spring", I interpret "spring" to be the advantage I have stressed all along in this debate. I have known for some time horizontal grain in a bucking and felling axe is more comfortable to use, works better, and is more efficient than vertical grain, leading to increased output, but I would not think that it would be double the work output..

I'm not arguing with your preference or discounting your experience. I just want to point out that those specific quotes were coming from a politician. Thinking that perhaps he could have been a former axeman (like Abraham Lincoln), I looked up his bio and found that he was a businessman who ran a leading shipping company, and lived what sounded like a rather upper-class life.

http://biography.senate.gov.au/index.php/james-macfarlane/

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

I measured two old handles I have at the halfway point. The horizontal grain handle measures 37 mm by 18 mm (1.456" by .708"). The vertical grain handle measures 33 mm by 19 mm (1.299" by .748"). The difference feels quite a bit more than that but those are the numbers. The horizontal is a 30" handle and the vertical is 29". Compared to Dudley Cook's Extra-light Custom-made handle, 1.19" by .75" (Commercial Extra-light 1.29").

There is also a diagram showing the handle size relative to the eye. I was wondering about the vibration transfer from the steel to the wood and was thinking this is another factor. It seems the thickness of the handle is approximately 2/3 of the width, so there is potentially some correlation here in the amount of vibration transferred. Or at least in the necessary size to maintain strength there is a general proportion. If the former, then it suggests some amount of runout is desirable as it causes dissipation of the vibrations along the grain which basically escape the handle.

I suppose someone well-versed in physics could explain how these vibrations really work.

I also recently thinned down the handle on my Gransfors limbing axe. It stands at 35 mm by 22 mm (1.377" by .866"). I just went by what feels good in the hand and it is close to the average old commercial handles.

I am thinking of thinning down a straight handle with horizontal grain close to the vertically grained handle to compare how they hold up. Don't really want to lose the patina, nor break the handle, but it is a little too wide. The vertically grained handle is almost the perfect shaped handle in my opinion.

 

[Twindog]

"Popping the chip" required much less strength than the actual blow of the axe, especially with overstrikes.

My own sense is that long, slender handles on full-sized axes give you the speed, control and flexitiity you want for long axe-swinging sessions. But slender handles require much more attention to optimal grain orientation. Most of today's full-size axes have moved to thick handles to achieve strength, rather than proper grain orientation. It's a cost-saving measure that looks good the to bean counters, but not to the workers.

If a modern axe haft has good grain orientation, you can thin it down. But usually, the grain doesn't allow for thinning without a big loss in strength.

 

[quinton]

I'm not arguing with your preference or discounting your experience. I just want to point out that those specific quotes were coming from a politician. Thinking that perhaps he could have been a former axeman (like Abraham Lincoln), I looked up his bio and found that he was a businessman who ran a leading shipping company, and lived what sounded like a rather upper-class life.

http://biography.senate.gov.au/index.php/james-macfarlane/

I thought it was pretty eloquent language for an axeman..

 

[quinton]

"Popping the chip" required much less strength than the actual blow of the axe, especially with overstrikes.

My own sense is that long, slender handles on full-sized axes give you the speed, control and flexitiity you want for long axe-swinging sessions. But slender handles require much more attention to optimal grain orientation. Most of today's full-size axes have moved to thick handles to achieve strength, rather than proper grain orientation. It's a cost-saving measure that looks good the to bean counters, but not to the workers.

If a modern axe haft has good grain orientation, you can thin it down. But usually, the grain doesn't allow for thinning without a big loss in strength.

I could deliver the axe head to target with a rope. The speed and weight of the head/grind etc. does the work.

When the bit sinks into the log, bit geometry along with lateral force is required to "pop the chip free".