"Hard Use" knives?

[mjolnir74]

I've seen a few broken SnG's has anyone seen a complete failure on an SMF?

 

[EnduringEagle]

If I'm going out somewhere where I am actually going to need the strength of a fixed blade, or potentially need it, then I take them with me. That would be a place where other tools aren't available, given that Hard Use generally means Abuse because the right tool for the job isn't available. They are in my emergency kit. I don't go hiking, or camping without them.

An Izula is a small fixed blade, far more capable than any "Hard Use" folder, and easily as stowable. It is one of the fixed blades currently in my waterproof camping/hiking emergency kit So in reality, in my opinion, all the hard use folder stuff is crap. Show me an environment where you would realistically require strength that the average folder doesn't provide, and I'm willing to bet it is an environment that you could plan better for, and carry a fixed blade instead.

And no offense (really I respect you, and your contributions), but your videos in particular while showing ways to break folding knives, really have very little to do with reality or actual situations requiring a strong knife.

To answer the Original Poster: I think this "Hard Use" knife thing is just a big machismo thing where people want to believe they have some kind of security provided by a tool that wasn't by it's very nature designed to be used in a manner I consider "Hard Use".

Hard use to me, is being stuck in a situation where you have to use a knife to endlessly cut hard materials like wood or metal, while retaining an edge, or used as an axe, prybar, etc. repeatedly without servicing or tools to repair the knife. Fixed blades are infinitely more capable when it comes to extreme abuse.

Show me a folder being "Used Hard" without refrain, and I'll show you a broken knife.

If anyone is willing to take the challenge, go ahead and send me your hard use folder, and I'll put it up against one of my fixed blades in a real Hard Use (and likely) scenario and we'll see how long your knife lasts.

I second this..

 

[sunnyd]

Ladies & Gentleman,

Please lets calm down a tiny bit and perhaps through back a cold one?. er, a two.. We are all blade brothers here,, are we not?. ..

.. Facing the hard facts up front I have used a fine hand full of knives in the last 30+ years in the field hunting, fishing and all kinds of other outdoors adventures. Knowing this I thought I'd try and defuse some of all the puffed up silly chat in here amongst a small gaggle of folks that are arguing with one another about which is better and which is worse. The truth is many hard use knives exist from a diverse group of makers.

Here is an actual hard use knife I have utilized by a good no-nonsense custom maker..

Anyone know these knives and used them as well?.


Anthony

 

[EnduringEagle]

Sorry, I don't buy it. What tasks are you talking about? I've never seen a folder than can take anywhere near the same Hard Use as a fixed blade.

I think you should change your terminology. Why not say Robust? A strider for instance may be more Robust when it comes to abuse than a slip joint, but using the term Hard Use and continuing to mention fixed blade replacement is just silly in my opinion. It's kind of like equipping a crane operator with a pully wheel, a few weights, and some rope. Yeah you can hoist things, but you aren't going to be picking up any buildings and moving them around.

I think the original poster had the right idea...I'd love to see some of these super hard used folders, and these real world tasks that people are forced to perform with them, where they just had no ability whatsoever to use a fixed blade. If you want something "tactical" buy a sniper rifle and a good scope.

No more spinewhack tests while sitting on a log, let's see the real deal. I'm willing to bet no one can provide a "Hard Use" situation that occurs often enough to need a particular knife for it where:

A) They had to use the folding knife on their person to accomplish said task instead of another tool

B) They had no ability whatsoever to prepare more effectively by packing a fixed blade

C) A non Hard Use folder would not have gotten the job done

Again I agree with this. Most of the "Hard Use" justification are very often that.. justifications. Most people buy these knives because they are appealing and Macho. That is it. Is that wrong? Not really. That is why GM makes a Pontiac Camero but lets call it for what it is. I have yet to see someone pull out a ZT301 that actually uses it for its true intent; stresses beyond that of a standard folder and for killing someone. Point in fact that last one I saw was owned by a ... wait for it.. A Financial Planner who does not even go camping. Most of these purchases are that way. Think about all the YouTube videos out there of people who have 50+ knives who don't use them. What is exactly appealing to these people? "Hard use folders as a replacement for a fixed blade does not exist and once you push the knife really hard you are endangering the saftey of yourself and other people. If knives are tools then we need to use the right tool for the job.

 

[SteelSnob]

I have some overbuilt folders and I like them but the reality of the situation is I could get by just fine the rest of my life carrying only a Case CV Swayback Jack. In my case they're not neccessary at all. The only reason I have them is I'm a knife enthusiast and I enjoy them along with other types of folders.

 

[Sep]

Why can't we use the term "hard use" for a folder? The term is relative and not exclusive to fixed blades. A folder can be legitimately called "hard use" as long as it's more durable than other folders on average. Now, if "hard use" is defined as not folding when loaded with 1000lb, then it's a different matter.

 

[SteelSnob]

I forgot to mention if I REALLY ever need or want to HARD USE a knife I have a Scrapyard Son Of Dog Father in my backpack in my trunk.

 

[Kaizen1]

Why can't we use the term "hard use" for a folder? The term is relative and not exclusive to fixed blades. A folder can be legitimately called "hard use" as long as it's more durable than other folders on average. Now, if "hard use" is defined as not folding when loaded with 1000lb, then it's a different matter.

I think this is a good point. Many objections are comparing "hard use" folders to fixed blades. It appears to be an accurate description when compared to the average folder.

 

[freq18hz]

I have some overbuilt folders and I like them but the reality of the situation is I could get by just fine the rest of my life carrying only a Case CV Swayback Jack. In my case they're not neccessary at all. The only reason I have them is I'm a knife enthusiast and I enjoy them along with other types of folders.

I forgot to mention if I REALLY ever need or want to HARD USE a knife I have a Scrapyard Son Of Dog Father in my backpack in my trunk.

I agree. And please don't take what I've said the wrong way. I respect the contributions Ankerson has made to the forum, and the time he spent making the videos. There is nothing wrong with liking robust, overbuilt, or tough folders...or for liking anything for that matter. People should just be honest, some people prefer a more robust, overbuilt, thick, large, macho folding knife. Nothing wrong with that. I prefer double cheese burgers over salads, they are beefier.

The only knifes I have that I consider Hard Use meaning able to take Abuse are my Fallkniven F1, and my brothers Bravo 2. That's because I can use them as prybars, axes, and for other unplanned and silly things without them breaking because they are very thick and structurally sound. Even if I had a sharpened folding 2x4 titanium beam, it wouldn't be as structurally sound as these two fixed blades, and therefore would not be suitable for Hard Use and Abuse.

As an aside, maybe that could be a cool test? Someone can make a sharpened folding titanium 2x4 and we can pit it up against a Bark River or a Busse and see which one wins. "2x4 Brand titanium Beam Knives, the Hardest Hard Use and Abuse folders on the planet!"

 

[stabman]

I think this is a good point. Many objections are comparing "hard use" folders to fixed blades. It appears to be an accurate description when compared to the average folder.

See, now we need a definition of what constitutes an "average folder".

Look, the reason for this thread in large part is to get a dialogue going which COULD lead to some operational definitions. It's only by examining what knives are ACTUALLY USED for that we can define what constitutes "Light duty", "medium duty", "heavy duty/hard use", MEGA duty, etc.

So I'll go now:
I use my folding pocket-knives to cut fiberglass at times; cardboard; tape; occassional 0.34" rubber hose; sometimes 0.125" thick plastic; sandwiches; use it as a barbeque tool and utensil; cut wood to make camp-fire skewers and assorted related items; the occasional zip tie; paper; rope very occassionally, and usually not more than 0.5" thick; sometimes in the kitchen for vegetables, and that's pretty much it that I can recall.

My knives handle this, whether they are my Sport-Utility-Knives, small fixed blades (not usually carried though), or my "slicier" Spydercos.

Oh, I occassionally stab trees for no good reason at all as well. Like I said, there's no good reason, but why limit yourself to what is reasonable, right?

 

[Slowstarter]

With a folder you cut strings and ropes, nosehair, open mail and other package. Maybe you cut some branches, plastic pipes and other small tasks. The heaviest use my folder gets it´s to open clam shell packs. These are really heavy duty to open. For anything heavier I´ll use a fixed blade. And if I had to hammer a nail in, I´ll use my hammer. The right tool for the right job!

 

[Kaizen1]

See, now we need a definition of what constitutes an "average folder".

Look, the reason for this thread in large part is to get a dialogue going which COULD lead to some operational definitions. It's only by examining what knives are ACTUALLY USED for that we can define what constitutes "Light duty", "medium duty", "heavy duty/hard use", MEGA duty, etc.

So I'll go now:
I use my folding pocket-knives to cut fiberglass at times; cardboard; tape; occassional 0.34" rubber hose; sometimes 0.125" thick plastic; sandwiches; use it as a barbeque tool and utensil; cut wood to make camp-fire skewers and assorted related items; the occasional zip tie; paper; rope very occassionally, and usually not more than 0.5" thick; sometimes in the kitchen for vegetables, and that's pretty much it that I can recall.

My knives handle this, whether they are my Sport-Utility-Knives, small fixed blades (not usually carried though), or my "slicier" Spydercos.

Oh, I occassionally stab trees for no good reason at all as well. Like I said, there's no good reason, but why limit yourself to what is reasonable, right?

By "average" I was referring to the typical build of the majority of the folding knives out in the market today. It doesn't take a clinical study to figure out that the Demko custom AD10 or Crusader Forge folders have stronger locks and blade stocks than the majority of folders out in the market.

 

[stabman]

It doesn't take a clinical study to figure out that the Demko custom AD10 or Crusader Forge folders have stronger locks and blade stocks than the majority of folders out in the market.

:foot:
I know that.
Why won't people just give examples of how they use their knives? Why is it a crime to ask that on a KNIFE FORUM? Why the constant dodges of the question?
Is it like asking about sex or religion? Is it a new knife world tabboo?
Why the apparent annoyance with the question, when it's a valid one?
Why the antagonism when I've REPEATEDLY said that liking them IS a good enough reason, as long as one is honest about it?
What social/phychological dynamic am I missing here?

 

[philwar]

A) They had to use the folding knife on their person to accomplish said task instead of another tool

B) They had no ability whatsoever to prepare more effectively by packing a fixed blade

These two are easy. I regard my folder (the one I have on me) as part of my survival gear. It may very well be the only knife I have at any given time.

C) A non Hard Use folder would not have gotten the job done

This can't be accurately foreseen, but tasks like prying to get at something, digging and batoning may be among the tasks I would not risk with a slicer but would not hesitate to do with (for example) an XM-18.

This question is (again) like asking someone why you'd want to drive that Landrover Discovery all the time instead of the Prius. "You'd have to make that drive with the car you have instead of another one, you can't prepare by renting a tractor, and a Prius wouldn't get the job done."

It doesn't happen often. But it does happen that an average family car will fail at something crucial where a Disco would have seen you through.

Now tell me why so many people consistently feel a need to ask, demand almost, that we explain our preference for gear that can do more than the gear THEY prefer.
I'm serious. I am REALLY curious. Why can't they just move on? Nothing is going to satisfy them anyway.

 

[stabman]

Now tell me why so many people consistently feel a need to ask, demand almost, that we explain our preference for gear that can do more than the gear THEY prefer.
I'm serious. I am REALLY curious. Why can't they just move on? Nothing is going to satisfy them anyway.

This is a dishonest accusation to make as I have repeatedly said that preference IS a good enough reason.
I think you just want to be annoyed, and it suits your purpose to ignore the many, MANY times I have said this.

All I asked is if people had encountered situations where the heavier duty knife was a plus; SOME people (not you) have provided some examples, furthuring the conversation in a positive way.

Why do you want to interject a negative note into what could easily have been a fun, breazy conversation between knife entusiasts?

 

[Ankerson]

:foot:
I know that.
Why won't people just give examples of how they use their knives? Why is it a crime to ask that on a KNIFE FORUM? Why the constant dodges of the question?
Is it like asking about sex or religion? Is it a new knife world tabboo?
Why the apparent annoyance with the question, when it's a valid one?
Why the antagonism when I've REPEATEDLY said that liking them IS a good enough reason, as long as one is honest about it?
What social/phychological dynamic am I missing here?

I think it's like asking a person why they bought that Hummer H1 instead of the Ford Explorer and what are they going to use it for. Then turning around and asking them to tell you what they did with their Hummer H1 in the past month.

Or the Rolex instead of the Seiko.

It's asking people to justify their buying choice to another person, that never really goes over well with most people.

It's like you just bought another knife and the wife asked you what did you buy that for when she knows you already have a bunch of them already.

 

[Kaizen1]

:foot:
I know that.
Why won't people just give examples of how they use their knives? Why is it a crime to ask that on a KNIFE FORUM? Why the constant dodges of the question?
Is it like asking about sex or religion? Is it a new knife world tabboo?
Why the apparent annoyance with the question, when it's a valid one?
Why the antagonism when I've REPEATEDLY said that liking them IS a good enough reason, as long as one is honest about it?
What social/phychological dynamic am I missing here?

Dude, I wasn't trying to give you an attitude. I was answering your question about what I meant by "average" folder.:thumbup:

 

[philwar]

This is a dishonest accusation to make as I have repeatedly said that preference IS a good enough reason.

It wasn't (exclusively) aimed at you. And the fact that answers have been given more than once, and the question keeps reappearing should demonstrate that there is no dishonesty on my part.

I think you just want to be annoyed, and it suits your purpose to ignore the many, MANY times I have said this.

No. I am genuinely baffled by the tenacity of some members on this issue. It appears to be very much a personal thing for them.

All I asked is if people had encountered situations where the heavier duty knife was a plus; SOME people (not you) have provided some examples, furthuring the conversation in a positive way.

I just did in the other thread, and have over time (just not in this thread) stated that I can see myself having to use a folder for tasks that a fixed blade would be preferable but simply absent.

Why do you want to interject a negative note into what could easily have been a fun, breazy conversation between knife entusiasts?

It certainly wasn't intended as such, if that was the effect I apologize for it. I will just reiterate: I am quite puzzled by how big an issue this is for people who have no practical interest in hard-use folders.
What is it to them?

 

[stabman]

I think it's like asking a person why they bought that Hummer H1 instead of the Ford Explorer and what are they going to use it for. Then turning around and asking then to tell you what they did with their Hummer H1 in the past month.

Or the Rolex instead of the Seiko.

It's asking people to justify their buying choice to anther person.

It's like you just bough another knife and the wife asked you what did you buy that for when she knows you already have a bunch of them already.

I WOULD ask them those things.
LIFE IS BORING; we have to find things to discuss.
I like knives and talking about knives, and talking about using knives, and talking about knife features...
So I started a thread intended to stimulate discussion about knives.
It isn't like I'm coming up with the 12 guage pointed at anyone's head screaming "Justify your purchases RIGHT NOW!!! Or ELSE!!!"
At least, I didn't think it was that level of knife world social faux pas.

 

[Sep]

It just occured to me that some people might need stronger folders because they don't EDC a multitool. The folder then needs to serve additional duties like pry bar, reamer, can opener, etc. I always have a multitool when I have my pants on, so I opt to carry a light and thin folder that's a really good slicer.