Has an axis lock failed on anyone?

Artfully Martial said:
Okay, here's the deal about axis locks, ball bearing locks, "arc locks" and stud locks--the force against the bar, ball bearing, etc, is *perpendicular* to the direction of travel to get out of the way and unlock.

Okay, so think about this. The load does not matter--because there's 0 force going in the direction it would need to to unlock. In fact, all force that is vertical is away from the unlocking side because the spring is pushing it up.
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That's the best explanation I've seen yet of why the Axis Lock, Ball Bearing Lock and Compression Lock are so foolproof. After reading the first few posts in this thread, I was starting to think of a good description of the Axis Lock, only to find AM beat me to it!

Keep in mind, too, that the more load you put on the lock, the more force would be required to unlock it, due to the friction between the Axis Bar, blade tang and liners.

Those of you who have Axis Bars that just barely engage, do have a valid issue. There should be more engagement. However, as the Axis Lock wears, the Axis Bar will move forward somewhat. So perhaps your knives just need a bit of "breaking in".
 
It may be a breaking in thing if the knife is new. But if you have owned it a good while and it still barely engages or even if it looks suspect it may be that you happened to get one the tolerances are off on just enough to keep the lock bar and the blade from mating together the way they should. Of course the first thing to do is look for obstacles that can be the culprit such as pocket lint. No matter how full proof a lock may be periodic checks of it are a must for safe use.

In a true survival situation a BM axis lock folder is a very good choice for a knife to have on you even though the springs can break from salt water corrosion or just from time and use. In a pinch it would be relatively easy to wedge a stick or even a small file or something like that that would fit inside behind the lock bar and the body and just use the knife like that when you need it so the wedge takes the place of the omega spring or springs.
 
After years of hard use by myself and others, I have never seen or heard of an axis lock failing in "real life".
Most of the internet claims seem to be second or third hand hearsay and I don't think anyone has ever posted a vid or picture.
 
the lock bar is round, so you only get a point of contact with the tang at a tangent anyway; and as AM pointed out, the pressure doesn't force the bar back.
 
I had a BM 520 that easily failed the spine whack test. I sent it to BM and when I got it back, it easily held up to the spine whack test. I ended up selling the 520 and my 5000. I just can't get into the axis-lock. I've played with several models after I saw Wade's video of him "flicking" his axis models open and close. That coolness lasted for about two minutes. I also had a heck of a time cleaning out the sand/dust from my 520 after a canyoneering trip. That was my fault. I picked the wrong tool for the job. On the good side though, the axis-lock has to be the smoothest opening lock on the planet. I am considering buying a Griptillian eespesially now that the blade comes in 154CM. That way I can say that I have an axis-lock in my collection. It's really a love/hate relationship that I have going on with the axis-lock.:o
 
combine AM and hardhearts points, and it is easy to see why the axis locks are so tough. It also kind of shows why is is so hard to see how much they are actaully engaged. I think that they actually appear to not be as engaged as they actually are.

One easy way to tell is to look at the blade where the Axis bar engages after you have carried the knife for a while and it gets a bit dirty. Every time the Axis lock engages it pushes whatever little bit of dirt or grime that might be on the back of the blade back. I have found after a while that you will be able to see a little line of dirt on portion of the blade where the lock bar engages. This is reletively easy to see and is exactly were the lock bar is engaging the blade. As long as this line of engagement is on the flat, you should be fine.

Its a bit hard to explain. I wish I had my camera here.
 
I think I'm coming up on 5 years with my BM710HSSR and it has been in my pocket almost everyday since I got it. I haven't had a single issue with it and it seems to only get better with age. I have four AXIS lock BM's and I haven't had a problem with any of them. They all lock up solid and I trust the AXIS lock more than any other.

Sure, there is a chance a spring could break, but I haven't had any problems with this. If it would happen I would discontinue use of the knife until I had it repaired.

I'm wodering if the problems some people are having with the AXIS lock are limited to the lower end BM's with the AXIS lock?

Edit: I looked through my old posts and found a post on 05-08-2000 where I am talking about my BM710. I think I got it around 4/2000, so I'm coming up on 6 years with it as my primary EDC.
 
I just have to chime in and agree with the positive comments here. I've never been let down by my axis lock (710), nor has it ever exhibited any signs of vertical blade play.

Artfully has it correctly: perpendicular forces. The direction that the blade pushes on the lock bar is not the same direction the lock bar must move to disengage. Therefore, the blade tang cannot cause the lock bar to disengage, no matter how much pressure is applied.

Why don't people base their negative comments on experience and things like simple physics, instead of suspicion and fear?
 
puukkoman said:
I just have to chime in and agree with the positive comments here. I've never been let down by my axis lock (710), nor has it ever exhibited any signs of vertical blade play.

Artfully has it correctly: perpendicular forces. The direction that the blade pushes on the lock bar is not the same direction the lock bar must move to disengage. Therefore, the blade tang cannot cause the lock bar to disengage, no matter how much pressure is applied.

Why don't people base their negative comments on experience and things like simple physics, instead of suspicion and fear?
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I didn't see anything negative in this post. Asking a question out of concern is not considered negative in my book. Regardless, physics or not, there exist in this world things called "anomalies". The comments from AM and others are no doubt correct in their analysis but unexplainable things do happen. Without really knowing what the specs were supposed to be by design, how can you be sure that it IS sitting correctly. Personally I have never had any issues at all w/Axis locks and I love them but there is definitely a difference to the degree in which the 2 knives I compared lockup. Not saying it will fail, just stating what was found and unsure if it's a concern.

Lastly I will say this, both the blade tang and the pin are rounded. If the rounded pin sits flush on a flat surface above a rounded edge, thats fine, but if the pin sits half on half off the edge of the rounded tang, it may slip from pressure on the rounded edge over time as it smooths a bit from usage and the pin sliding off the edge when opened/closed. I have noticed slight wear on my 941 but not worried 'cause it sits farther up.
 
The simplest way to see if it is locking up for enough is to just pull the lockbar down a mm or 1/2 a mm, and, while holding it there, put some pressure against the back of the blade. If at 1/2 a mm away it collapses, you might have something to worry about. I don't have my minigrip here, but I remember doing this test out of curiosity and found I had at least a full mm, if I remember correctly, before it collapsed. I did it just now with my ball bearing locks, a dodo and d`allara, and I'm getting not quite a mm and a half before it collapses. Of course, I'm judging with my eyes, but you needn't convince me, you just need to see to your own satisfaction, which is to say don't worry about exact measurements--just test and find confidence in your knife.

I can't imagine this simple test could damage your knife, unlike some of my more rigorous lock testing, but this specifically addresses the concern here, as opposed to the overall strength and reliability of the lock.

If I remember, I'll test this on a minigrip tonight and see what I come up with. We've got a new one here, so maybe it'll be different.


I think I'll call this the lockbar travel test, and we can do it on all new axis and pseudo axis locks and post it in our reviews. I'll edit my recent ball bearing knife reviews to include this data. Measurements will be in mm.
 
I did that test also and I would guess from memory it was about a mm, maybe less. I will check it again tonight.
 
I personally would put more faith in my mini-grip rather than my big ass 710 axis. The mini grip's tang is flat where it touches the lockbar, as opposed to the 710's rounded tang where it meets the lock. The 710 looks like it could potentially be more prone to failng because of this, but I still highly doubt either would slip and fail under normal wear and tear.
 
Wunderbar said:
yoneering trip. That was my fault. I picked the wrong tool for the job.
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I dragged a 705 through 13 miles of canyoneer quicksand in the Buckskin Gulch. Cleaned out with a loosening of the pivot screw and swishing through clean water.

Phil
 
The 710 in my pocket easily has a mm of travel before the lock disengages. I would say closer to two actually.
 
Here are some pictures of my BM710HSSR which is closing in on 6 years of ownership. Looks like it's due for a cleaning from these close up shots, but the grime and lint doesn't interfere with the action one bit, as the AXIS lock is self cleaning where it locks up.

You can easily see the clean area of metal on the tang of the blade and where the grim starts. It's a pretty good area of the tang.

First picture shows the tang of the blade:

axis01.jpg


The second picture shows the AXIS lock bar approaching the point where it engages the tang. When it engages the bar is more or less centered over the area where it goes from clean metal, to grime, so it really can't go anywhere but up and through the dual steel liners, and G-10 scales. That's a lot of material to force the AXIS bar through by the way...

axis02.jpg


Editted to add more photos:

Here is a shot showing that the lock bar is actually far enough in that some of the flat area of the tang, where it locks against, is extended out past the area where the lock bar makes contact:

axis03.jpg


Here is a shot showing how much more area is left for the lock bar to travel as it wears. I'd expect I'd never see it travel all the way across anytime soon. This picutre also shows how much material the lock bar would have to be forced through in order for the lock to actually fail:

axis04.jpg
 
If anyone has good close up photo skills I wouldn't mind seeing shots like mine, but of a Spyderco Para Military. I have been thinking about picking one up, but haven't had a chance to see details pictures of the lock.
 
It's really difficult to see the lock engagement because it's hidden behind that bar. Or rather, "compressed" between the bar and tang.

The compression lock, minus its tiny vertical play, is a real winner. If I can get the use of a camera tonight, I'll see what I can do.
 
Artfully Martial said:
It's really difficult to see the lock engagement because it's hidden behind that bar. Or rather, "compressed" between the bar and tang.

The compression lock, minus its tiny vertical play, is a real winner. If I can get the use of a camera tonight, I'll see what I can do.
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Editted: "I think the pictures show the engagement of the lock just fine. It's also not hidden behind the bar, the lock is the bar." - thought you were referring to the AXIS lock, but you were talking about the Para, my bad. :P

I saw a Paramilitary once, and from what I remember the compression lock just looked like some kind of upside down liner lock, and it looked flimsy to me compared to an AXIS lock. It did look much more reliable than a regular liner lock though.
 
I'm actually holding my paramilitary right now. It really is hard to see the lock engage on the para because it really is hidden behind the bar.

I mean, it's like, in my hand as I say this.

It's not flimsy at all. The liner thickness doesn't have any impact here because the force doesn't push down on the liner lock. Like the axis lock, ball bearing lock, etc, the force is pushed perpendicular to the angle of normal travel (which is in the direction opposite of the clip side--that's the way it closes) and into the bar behind it.

In order for it to be overpowered (which has nothing to do with lock reliability), you'll have to deform the lock bar and then punch the lock bar out of its steel, then out of their g10 liners, then through the steel bar, then through the g10 on the other side.

This is a photo of the gunting's lock I found.

gunting10.jpg


The liner locks you're used to have their tang wedge pointing towards the butt of the knife (when open). This is not so with compression locks--the wedge points toward the back of the knife.
 
Artfully Martial said:
In order for it to be overpowered (which has nothing to do with lock reliability), you'll have to deform the lock bar and then punch the lock bar out of its steel, then out of their g10 liners, then through the steel bar, then through the g10 on the other side.
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I was fairly familiar how it worked, and I just looked at a diagram of it on Spyderco's site. It's like a liner lock, but the liner gets pinned between the tang of the blade, and the stop pin, lock pin, whatever. It's basically like an AXIS lock with a piece of thin metal wedged between the the AXIS bar and the tang, adding more pieces to the puzzle. Basically the AXIS lock is more simplified, and there is more substantial metal to metal contact. With the Para you have a thinner piece of metal inbetween the lock bar and the tang of the blade. Obviously it's strong enough, but for our insane debates over lock strength which would be beyond what's really needed, I feel the AXIS provides a stronger and more reliable lock. I can see the compression lock wearing faster. You already mentioned there is some blade play in the Para, there is none on my AXIS locks. Also if both knives were subjected to increasing force on the lock I would expect the compression lock to buckle, crack, crumble, or whatever, first.

Both knives appear equally strong with regards to the lock bar as they are both supported by the dual liners. If there is a weakness with the compression lock, it's the liner that slides inbetween the lock bar and the blade tang.
 
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