Has an axis lock failed on anyone?

One thing I read that disappointed me is the Para Military uses a nested compression lock. So the locking liner, or whatever you want to call it, is nested inthe G-10. This knife doesn't have full, dual steel liners. It appears that the stop pin and the knife's pivot pin are nested into the G-10 and there is no steel liners to suppor them, at least on the one side. This right here would show the knife is much weaker than a AXIS lock with dual steel liners since the pivot and AXIS lock bar are supported by the dual steel liners and G-10, where the Para only has the G-10, and maybe a steel liner on one side. It's no wonder the pivot area or stop pin failed before the compression lock's lock bar failed.
 
All paramilitaries have dual steel liners, one on each side.

There is simply much more steel between the tang and the back of the knife of a para than on any axis lock I've seen. It's like an axis bar (the stop bar) PLUS the cross section of the crosslock plus the dual steel liners and G10. I'd say the para has something like 25 percent more length of steel between it and the outside of the knife than my minigrip. Worse yet, the crosslock is braced against the g10 90% of the way and then embedded into the rest of the steel liner, which at that point has yet another huge bar going through it. You're going to have to break all that g10 too.

No successful argument can be made that materials alone make compression locks weaker. That's an argument the axis lock will inevitably lose.

If you want to address potential problems with the compression lock, the one I can see is poor lock engagement, which apparently hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure someone will eventually get one that doesn't lock up as much as it should. If the liner doesn't lock, then the enhanced compression lock strength will be made irrelevant.

Your video really sold me on axis locks too. I use both and trust both. Interestingly, all of your axis flick tricks can also be done on a compression lock.
 
Our good friend Ming65 has been posting on my review in another forum area, and I hope he doesn't mind, but these are some great photos he's taken of his D`allara lock testing. It seems he wanted to test the ability for the lock to get jammed up in dirty situations, but his reports are glowingly positive. Apparently, no amount of dirt effects the ball bearing lock.

DAllarainsand.jpg


Abuseme.jpg


Read his review, nested within my own review, of the D`allara in the reviews area.
 
Wade,
The stop pin goes through the steel nestled steel liners. If it only went through the G10 then I would definitely be worried about its strength due to the shocks that stop pins need to take.
 
dniice87 said:
The lock always looks to me like its just barely engaging and its hard for me to trust it. Just curious if anyone has had one fail on them.
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I have made one (520) fail the spinewhack by whacking pretty hard. I have, in comparision whacked another one (550) same way with no problem.

I have then took a look, how the axis bar engages the ramp and there was a difference between the 520, where the bar didn´t travel so far as on the 550.

How to describe? I took the 550 view 90° on the spine, knife open. i then turn it slowly, tip downwards, pivoting at the axis mechanics, until i see the end of the ramp or the corner between ramp and tang on the left side of the axis bar.

If the bar travels its own diametre over the ramp, you will see the end of the ramp after turning the knife tip downwards for about 20° to 30°.

If you see it, i guess only the most stupid hard rock tests will let it mmh, fail? I hope it will, because otherwise you can only completely break the knife.

If you can´t see the endcorner of the ramp or if it comes in sight when the tip is turned down more than 45°, you may want to send it to Benchmade for a warranty service.
 
Is the force generated by a Whack on the spine the same as the force generated by a firm push against the blade which is imbedded in a cutting material? It seems to me that a spine Whack has a rebound factor that is not found in normal knife use but I could be (and probably am) wrong about the physics of Spine Whacking. The rebound could bounce the locking mechanism out of its locking position.


I have a couple of axis knives and have never had any failures.
 
Artfully Martial said:
All paramilitaries have dual steel liners, one on each side.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I will have to pick up a Para soon. I have seen people flick them open and closed quickly, but it looks like it takes more skill and practice to do so than it does with an AXIS lock.

I assumed the photos above were of a Paramilitary, but I guess they can't be since I don't see dual steel liners around the pivot area and lock area. Anyone know what knife was used to show the compression lock?
 
Wade,

Those shots are of a Para as far as I know. That's exactly what they look like. The liners are nested in the G10. I'm not sure if they are partial or full or what.

You can tell by the clip screws in the pics that it's a Para. Since the clip goes around the pivot.
 
DGG said:
Is the force generated by a Whack on the spine the same as the force generated by a firm push against the blade which is imbedded in a cutting material? It seems to me that a spine Whack has a rebound factor that is not found in normal knife use but I could be (and probably am) wrong about the physics of Spine Whacking. The rebound could bounce the locking mechanism out of its locking position.


I have a couple of axis knives and have never had any failures.
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Let me say, i have tested an old lockback, which i used to use over eight years with no problems, the same way and the lockbar snaped after the third whack. Never forund it anymore.

So, besides of some ppl. saying a spinewhack might be considered to a real life self defense situation (i can´t rate this, b/c i don´t know anything about this) a hard spine whack usually is out of normal use. But i think, any knife should be tested once that way, because the spinewhack itself is an indicator of high quality production.

It is up to anyone to decide how hard he / she whacks because it naturally stresses the material and on lockbacks, i think, if it withstood once, it doesn´t have to withstand twice. Look at my destroyed lockback.
 
I don't have my Para at the moment, but if I remember right ther are not full liners. I am not sure thought.

I do know that (like Joe said) the liners are nested in the G-10, so you cannot see them looking straight at the spine or front of the handle, you have to tip it to the side a little.
 
Joe Dirt said:
Those shots are of a Para as far as I know. That's exactly what they look like. The liners are nested in the G10. I'm not sure if they are partial or full or what.
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AH! Now I can kidna see the one liner, nested in the G-10, which is a pretty slick way to do it.

I guess the only legit concern I have now is how will the compression lock wear? If the lock bar (liner lock) that wedges between the tang and the stop pin becomes worn, will the knife develope more and more blade play? Did they put a ramp on the tang so as it wears, it travels further over and prevent further blade play?

I'm wondering how much, if any, my AXIS lock has worn over the years. If it has worn, it hasn't resulted in any blade play.
 
Here's a shot of the anvil pin. It goes through the scales and the liners and is secured on both sides with a torx screw that's slightly recessed in the G-10.



The liners aren't completely full, sort of like what you'd see on a full sized Griptillian. The liner is in a shadow in the first image so it's a bit difficult to spot, but:






WadeF said:
I guess the only legit concern I have now is how will the compression lock wear? If the lock bar (liner lock) that wedges between the tang and the stop pin becomes worn, will the knife develope more and more blade play? Did they put a ramp on the tang so as it wears, it travels further over and prevent further blade play?
Click to expand...

A ramp... Yes. If I understand you correctly, the tang is asymmetrical. Specifically the compression surface. The compression insert sort of travels upwards on it as it goes to the right when locking (looking at the knife from the back). You can kind of see this in the very first image I posted in this thread.

WadeF said:
I'm wondering how much, if any, my AXIS lock has worn over the years. If it has worn, it hasn't resulted in any blade play.
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I compared one used Griptillian to a new one. I could see significant rounding and smoothing of the tang area. You really notice it when it's side-by-side with a new knife. No blade play either.
 
Am I wrong in thinking that with wear the compression lock will get more play?

I'm just thinking that as the piece that sits between the tang and the stop pin gets worn that it would get smaller and allow for play. I'm thinking I just don't fully understand how a compression lock works. Like would the thin metal piece that is stuck between the tang and the stop pin get smashed down after a while? I'm talking about the piece that pops out from the liner to wedge itself in between the two.

Seeing pictures of that G10 on that para make me want one real bad.

Lastly, this has really turned into a fun and very educational thread for those who don't have much lock knowledge like me. :D
 
Joe Dirt said:
I'm just thinking that as the piece that sits between the tang and the stop pin gets worn that it would get smaller and allow for play.
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That piece is under spring tension, sorta like a traditional liner lock is; as it wears, it just pushes a bit further to the right, keeping it wedged tightly; again, mush like a liner lock working against an angled blade tang.

Eventually, of course, it could wear to the point where it no longer wedges tightly, but that should take quite a lot of wear to accomplish.
 
I checked my 610 and 941Ti last night and they are both lining up in the same spots. The regular 941 rides farther up the tang but then again it was used daily for a year. The Ti and 610 were never used. I also noticed that the 610 Axis sticks a bit when you let the pin shoot back from a full draw/pull.

So I guess it's a play issue as to why the reg.941 rides farther up, which can only mean that through use, the others will follow suit. Glad to get this resolved and have some peace of mind that QC isn't on the decline.

Great thread.
 
Gryffin,

Thanks. Ya know I was thinking that the blad tang had a ramp at the back of it just like a liner lock but now I'm getting the picture. The blade tang must have a ramp on the bottom where it engages the top of the compression piece. So as it wears the compression piece keept moving to the right down the ramped tang.

I drew a little picture that's kind of crappy but is this right? Looking at the picture the little piece in the middle would be the compression lock piece and the top is the back of the blade. The bottom part being the stop pin.

 
Looks like you've got it. Turn that picture upside down, though, and it makes a bit more sense! ;)
 
Play appears to be very hard to develop on cross lock based systems. I submit for example my M16. My M16's bar has worn all the way and now impacts the opposite side of the handle. It, however, has absolutely no play in any direction, and can easily handle even hard spine whacks (many, many times).

A properly designed crosslock should compensate for the length lost during wear (going more diagonal, farther away from its liner of origin) by the shape of the wedge at the tang that impacts it. That's my theory anyway, and it seems to hold true, at least in regards to my M16.

I've used my little 2 inch urban shark liner lock for several years now, and abused it, and it has had 0 liner wear at all, that I can notice anyway. Still no play.

My para has been flicked very hard thousands of times by now, but it had slight vertical play new. I don't believe there has been any wear in the liner, but it's more difficult to say since you can't actually see the lockup, just estimate it. The vertical play is VERY small (though still bothersome in a 100+ dollar knife). I've been working on a theory to explain why it's so common place in compression locks. But I've disproven all my ideas. It could just be simple poor geometry, but I'm inclined to believe Spyderco wouldn't make that a consistant trait in their entire class of knives that use these locks (all of which are reasonably high end).


The liners are quite substantial and bigger than you might think. They're also embedded with two big bars running through it. I've used my para a lot and I've got no fears with it.

The compression lock is less friendly than the axis lock, and yes, it does take a little (not much) more skill to axis flick. The axis lock is still number 1, even among the axis clones, in user friendliness and action.
 
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