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Has an axis lock failed on anyone?
- Thread starter dniice87
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Joe Dirt said:
Exactly. My 710 has only gotten smoother with age. If you let the AXIS locking bar keep pressure on the tang of the blade is just glides along like butter. If you pull the AXIS bar back the blade can fall open with gravity, which maybe illegal in some states, but I think it's okay here, I hope.
Then the fact that it still locks up solid with no blade play makes it that much better. It's obvious a great lock since so many other companies have done whatever they can to immitate it. The only beef I have with it is it isn't the most attractive lock and most of the affordable AXIS lock knives aren't that attractive locking. I carry mine for function over looks, and when I want looks I generally have to settle for a liner lock.
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Close; but the Compression Lock doens't add any complexity. Think of the liner tab as the Axis Bar, wedging in between the blade tang and the stop pin, rather than between the blade tang and liners. Very similar, really.
As for wear, the Compression Lock has point contact with the stop pin (round pin on tab edge), and a longer edge contact on the tang (tab edge on tang flat; the Axis has point contact between the Axis bar and blade tang (round bar on flat tang) and point contact between the Axis Bar and the liners (round bar on liners edges). So I would actually expect slightly more wear on the Axis, assuming the forces are equal; but the Axis Bar can rotate, so the wear is spread all around the Axis Bar. So you're right, the Compression Lock may wear somewhat faster.
I'm glad to see we all realize that we're "counting angels on the head of a pin" here -- both locks are overbuilt. Sal Glesser has posted here on the subject, stating that in his destructive tests of the Compression Lock, either the stop pin, blade pivot or the blade tang fail before that little tab of steel does.
As for wear, the Compression Lock has point contact with the stop pin (round pin on tab edge), and a longer edge contact on the tang (tab edge on tang flat; the Axis has point contact between the Axis bar and blade tang (round bar on flat tang) and point contact between the Axis Bar and the liners (round bar on liners edges). So I would actually expect slightly more wear on the Axis, assuming the forces are equal; but the Axis Bar can rotate, so the wear is spread all around the Axis Bar. So you're right, the Compression Lock may wear somewhat faster.
I'm glad to see we all realize that we're "counting angels on the head of a pin" here -- both locks are overbuilt. Sal Glesser has posted here on the subject, stating that in his destructive tests of the Compression Lock, either the stop pin, blade pivot or the blade tang fail before that little tab of steel does.
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Well, it's about a centimeter thickness, which is pretty comparable to the axis bar.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. I believe that the compression lock is (unecessarily) stronger than the axis lock because there is more metal inbetween the bar and the outside back of the knife. The stop bar is like an axis bar in addition to the liner it already has.
I've never broken either, but I'll bet Cliff might assist, so we could find out. I just don't have the financial backing to break 100+ dollar knives...I could afford to risk breaking my M16 at about 40....otherwise I would really beat the heck out of these, because I have huge confidence in both.
The main advantage of the axis lock over the compression lock is ease of use and action. The axis lock is simply the best action of any knife ever--if you loosen it just enough the blade will swing freely when the axis lock is pulled.
But it is not without weaknesses. Omega springs break rarely, but rarely is still much more frequently than leaf springs.
Furthermore, stuff gets trapped in axis locks. Dirt, sand, etc. It's never actually been a problem for me, but it is something that could be annoying. I just clean it out occasionally, not that big of a deal.
However, the compression lock has a blow through design, so it stays very clean, and water never hangs around inside it for rust problems.
In theory, the compression lock should be cheaper to make, although this doesn't appear to translate into what we pay for our knives.
I'll make a risky statement:
The number one priority to knife locks is neither in lock design or in lock strength, but in quality control.
The more important statistic about knife locks is not how many lbs load it can take, but in in how many per thousand are defective, or have simply less than perfect lockup.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. I believe that the compression lock is (unecessarily) stronger than the axis lock because there is more metal inbetween the bar and the outside back of the knife. The stop bar is like an axis bar in addition to the liner it already has.
I've never broken either, but I'll bet Cliff might assist, so we could find out. I just don't have the financial backing to break 100+ dollar knives...I could afford to risk breaking my M16 at about 40....otherwise I would really beat the heck out of these, because I have huge confidence in both.
The main advantage of the axis lock over the compression lock is ease of use and action. The axis lock is simply the best action of any knife ever--if you loosen it just enough the blade will swing freely when the axis lock is pulled.
But it is not without weaknesses. Omega springs break rarely, but rarely is still much more frequently than leaf springs.
Furthermore, stuff gets trapped in axis locks. Dirt, sand, etc. It's never actually been a problem for me, but it is something that could be annoying. I just clean it out occasionally, not that big of a deal.
However, the compression lock has a blow through design, so it stays very clean, and water never hangs around inside it for rust problems.
In theory, the compression lock should be cheaper to make, although this doesn't appear to translate into what we pay for our knives.
I'll make a risky statement:
The number one priority to knife locks is neither in lock design or in lock strength, but in quality control.
The more important statistic about knife locks is not how many lbs load it can take, but in in how many per thousand are defective, or have simply less than perfect lockup.
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Great pics WadeL. The line that you can see in the dirt were the Axis lock stops is exactly the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.
I totally agree with this. A defective lockback isn't as good as a perfect liner lock, regardless of what people want to argue about the strength of different locking systems. I have heard tons of complaints about the liner locks on CRKTs and the BM Apparition, and nun at all about on Spydeco's compression lock.
Yet I have a M-21 and a Apparition at home with absolutely no play front or side, and a Para-Mil on its way back to Spyderco because the amount of forward back play was unacceptable IMO.
Artfully Martial said:
I totally agree with this. A defective lockback isn't as good as a perfect liner lock, regardless of what people want to argue about the strength of different locking systems. I have heard tons of complaints about the liner locks on CRKTs and the BM Apparition, and nun at all about on Spydeco's compression lock.
Yet I have a M-21 and a Apparition at home with absolutely no play front or side, and a Para-Mil on its way back to Spyderco because the amount of forward back play was unacceptable IMO.
The one big plus that Axis locks have is that they suck the blade closed and keep them closed for the last inch or so. I really like that. Of course, I've not really had problems with detent balls either. I had a 910 at one point in my life and it was awesome. Wish I would have kept it.
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Given a choice between the AXIS and Compression Lock, I'll pick the AXIS everytime.
No less than four compression lock models I've owned had what I'd term unacceptable up and down play that no amount of adjustment would remedy. Also, I personally find closing a Compression lock one-handed completely un-natural and awkward. I usually get used to a new locking method really quickly, but I never adapted well enough to the Compression Lock to the point where it wasn't an awkward finger reach or a two-handed affair.
Could be me, of course.
Conversely, I've never owned an AXIS equipped Benchmade that wasn't buttery smooth and tight when locked up.
I think it would be tough to get either to just collapse and fail, but I'd still pick the AXIS. It's just a great design that works.
(PS- I still have more Spydies then Benchmades overall, so don't give me any "you don't like Spyderco!" nonsense. I just think the compression lock will ultimately become a historical footnote and that's about it. Hopefully along with those god-awful thin film washers. Yech.)
No less than four compression lock models I've owned had what I'd term unacceptable up and down play that no amount of adjustment would remedy. Also, I personally find closing a Compression lock one-handed completely un-natural and awkward. I usually get used to a new locking method really quickly, but I never adapted well enough to the Compression Lock to the point where it wasn't an awkward finger reach or a two-handed affair.
Could be me, of course.
Conversely, I've never owned an AXIS equipped Benchmade that wasn't buttery smooth and tight when locked up.
I think it would be tough to get either to just collapse and fail, but I'd still pick the AXIS. It's just a great design that works.
(PS- I still have more Spydies then Benchmades overall, so don't give me any "you don't like Spyderco!" nonsense. I just think the compression lock will ultimately become a historical footnote and that's about it. Hopefully along with those god-awful thin film washers. Yech.)
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Joe Dirt makes a good point about the axis lock's blade retention. I actually am more than happy with my ball detent liner locks also, but the compression lock, at least on my para, doesn't hold the blade in that well.
It holds it in fine, for me, and for being tip down, but this is definitely one I would not consider carrying tip up.
Closing one handed is very easy for me on either knife, and I flick both shut.
It holds it in fine, for me, and for being tip down, but this is definitely one I would not consider carrying tip up.
Closing one handed is very easy for me on either knife, and I flick both shut.
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Gryffin said:
I don't really follow this. The Axis Bar and the Stop pin on the Para are virtually the same. Both are embedded in the liners. I'd have to see diagrams to see which is embedded better. The full thickness of the Axis bar is supported by the liners, is the Para's stop pin embedded into the liners as well, or are there screws through the liners and is the stop pin sandwhiched inbetween the liners?
With the compression lock you have the locking liner inbetween the stop pin and the tang, where on the AXIS the tang rests right against the Axis Bar (stop pin) with nothing extra in between.
One of the guys that works at Benchmade posted the following on their forum:
We've talked about publishing our test data. Ideally, any published data should come from an independant lab. That way there's no bias and all knives get tested in the same manner.
For what it's worth, in our in house tests the average Axis lock's closed break strength is 31% stronger than the 630 (incidently, the 630 came in at 111% stronger than two competitor mechanisms to the Axis, so it's by no means a weak lock!).
Hope that helps!
Quite compelling testimony for the strength of the axis.
We've talked about publishing our test data. Ideally, any published data should come from an independant lab. That way there's no bias and all knives get tested in the same manner.
For what it's worth, in our in house tests the average Axis lock's closed break strength is 31% stronger than the 630 (incidently, the 630 came in at 111% stronger than two competitor mechanisms to the Axis, so it's by no means a weak lock!).
Hope that helps!
Quite compelling testimony for the strength of the axis.
G3
Via con dios
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I'll make a risky statement:
The number one priority to knife locks is neither in lock design or in lock strength, but in quality control.
The more important statistic about knife locks is not how many lbs load it can take, but in in how many per thousand are defective, or have simply less than perfect lockup.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
The number one priority to knife locks is neither in lock design or in lock strength, but in quality control.
The more important statistic about knife locks is not how many lbs load it can take, but in in how many per thousand are defective, or have simply less than perfect lockup.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
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Those of us who are fortunate to have the best of that yield of knives are happy. You wouldn't be quite as happy, I imagine, had you been the unlucky guy to get the "bad" minigrip out of that batch of 5000.
My point is this: I can't promise you that your next Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, CRKT, Gerber, Frost etc will have a reliable lock.
But I'll bet you that Benchmade has far fewer defective locks than Gerber, or even a company I actually quite like, CRKT.
Sure you could trade your knife in for a good one if you find out it's defective. Ideally, your fingers will heal in time for the new replacement knife to arrive. Ideally.
I don't just talk about this. I have ordered axis lock Benchmades without ever looking at them. Unless I or someone I trust checks out a liner or framelock for me, I won't buy those.
My point is this: I can't promise you that your next Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, CRKT, Gerber, Frost etc will have a reliable lock.
But I'll bet you that Benchmade has far fewer defective locks than Gerber, or even a company I actually quite like, CRKT.
Sure you could trade your knife in for a good one if you find out it's defective. Ideally, your fingers will heal in time for the new replacement knife to arrive. Ideally.
I don't just talk about this. I have ordered axis lock Benchmades without ever looking at them. Unless I or someone I trust checks out a liner or framelock for me, I won't buy those.
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As I am typing this I am also putting on the flame suit
But here goes - I have a SOG TI Vision (Axis) and a Large Sebenza.
I carried the SOG for years until I saved up enough for the Seb, during that wait period, never had an issue with the lock up on the Vision, and the only time I ever even oiled the lock, was just to please my neurosis.
Long story short, I got the Seb, and due to my pocket lint or working around dust/dirt in wood working and a little Copenhagen fine cut in the pocket :barf: I had to continually (meaning every week or 2) clean the frame lock of debri, and oil the Seb to keep the lock tight, and get the resounding "click" which to me means "aint no worries".
I'm not saying that the lock alone on the Vision displaced the Seb from EDC, because the ATS 34 blade on the vision holds an edge very well, but lock up sure as heck played a part in the decision.
Also, Is there another knife that is absolutely as buttery smooth to do the flick open and flick closed as an Axis lock? No fingers have to get in the way of the blade on open or close - totally sweet.
Axis Locks rock -
But here goes - I have a SOG TI Vision (Axis) and a Large Sebenza.
I carried the SOG for years until I saved up enough for the Seb, during that wait period, never had an issue with the lock up on the Vision, and the only time I ever even oiled the lock, was just to please my neurosis.
Long story short, I got the Seb, and due to my pocket lint or working around dust/dirt in wood working and a little Copenhagen fine cut in the pocket :barf: I had to continually (meaning every week or 2) clean the frame lock of debri, and oil the Seb to keep the lock tight, and get the resounding "click" which to me means "aint no worries".
I'm not saying that the lock alone on the Vision displaced the Seb from EDC, because the ATS 34 blade on the vision holds an edge very well, but lock up sure as heck played a part in the decision.
Also, Is there another knife that is absolutely as buttery smooth to do the flick open and flick closed as an Axis lock? No fingers have to get in the way of the blade on open or close - totally sweet.
Axis Locks rock -
Now that I am home from work I went back and have been reading more of this thread. Wade's 710 pics just blow me away. That is a for sure testament to the Axis lock. Makes me want to go out and buy a 710.
The Axis lock just works. It's self cleaning as Wade said and I have never seen it need adjustment. I have seen a D2 mini-grip go through hell and back on the job site. A guy I know has dropped it in the mud, cleaned gunk out of pipes with it, and dropped it in the mud about 20 more times. He works in ditches quite a bit with a back hoe. All he has ever done is rinse the knife with warm water to flush out the garbage and then he uses it some more. Sometimes he doesn't even lube it. Seeing this guys knife was what turned me on to Benchmade.
The Axis lock just works. It's self cleaning as Wade said and I have never seen it need adjustment. I have seen a D2 mini-grip go through hell and back on the job site. A guy I know has dropped it in the mud, cleaned gunk out of pipes with it, and dropped it in the mud about 20 more times. He works in ditches quite a bit with a back hoe. All he has ever done is rinse the knife with warm water to flush out the garbage and then he uses it some more. Sometimes he doesn't even lube it. Seeing this guys knife was what turned me on to Benchmade.
Axis locks rule, and kick spydercos ass anyday as far as designs and quality go. American made, awesome steel, awesome designs, amazing bullet proof locks, what more can I ask for? yeah BMs cost a little more than Spydys, but your paying for american made products, AMAZING customer service, and support to those awesome designers!
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Oh, OK, now I think i see your point. Interesting way of looking at it...WadeF said:
Stop pins generally sit in plain, unthreaded holes in the liners, and are retained by the larger-diameter center portion being sandwiched between the liners. No screws involved.
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WadeF said:
Okay, here you are.
First I suggest looking at Spyderco's diagram so everyone knows what I'm talking about.
Here's a shot of the compression surface/tang. The beginning of the spine is in the very bottom of the image. It's a sharp angle rather than the more rounded like you see on an Axis lock. The compression insert holds the compression surface when locked. The anvil pin engages the tang and seems to make everything stronger.
The knife is locked in this image. This is the compression insert/spring/bar/whateveryouwannacallit and anvil pin. The view is from the spine side of the knife. The actual compression insert sits below the pin.
This is the same thing but zoomed out for another view.
Here's the tang from the other side with the knife locked. When the knife closes, the compression insert engages that cut out area on the right to keep the knife closed. This gives you something of an idea of the shape of the compression insert.
Evidence of extraterrestrial design?
It looked like a UFO to me anyway.