Has anyone ever had a defective Swiss Army Knife?

pinnah said:
Would a GEC be considered faulty if a blade was a nail breaker?

Would a Buck be considered faulty if the edge rolled easily?

Would a Case be considered faulty if the scales fell off in short order?

Would a Leatherman be considered faulty if they had removable tools that became loose and fell out with routine use?

IMO, that these aren't widely seen as faults of Victorinox is a result of the branding success.
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The reason that those aren't widely seen as faults of Victorinox is because they aren't widely seen, period. Other than scales falling off-which is uncommon, though not unheard of- you seem to be the only one here who's experienced these sorts of things.
 
pinnah said:
Last thing... We see the modern non-traditional aspect of the Victorinox played out every time we discuss the possibilty of somebody like GEC bringing out a camper. People remain fixated on the classic 4 blade combo instead of considering different tool options, which was the non-traditional path to success for Victorinox.
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Didn't Victornox invent the so called 'Camper'?
I am missing the point of this last post a little maybe (possibly due to it being very early here), but isn't this very pattern defined by those four basic tools (or very slight variations there of)?

Is your actual gripe in this instance with Victorinox, or rather with other people's perceptions, for what four tools could be used in a 'knife' or multi tool package??

The 'Swiss Army Knife'/'Camper' are synonymous. Call it something else if you don't want it to be doomed to be just another imitation of a classic and IMHO traditional European knife.

We are not all castrating cattle or skinning rodents, tamping pipes or whittling noggins. But there are multi 'tooled' knives to fit all of these categories, without feeling the need to include a can opener.

A certain megalomaniac Frenchman with a penchant for big hats and tin cans, saw to us Europeans and our armies needing that tool. If only he'd have invented 'vac-pac', Victorinox probably wouldn't exist!
 
I've currently own 2 Tinkers, a Bantam and a couple of Classics.

The main blade on one of my Tinkers is warped so the tip contacts the flat screwdriver/bottle opener. I am reluctant to snap the blade closed for fear of tip damage, so I let her down easy. If I'm not careful closing the SD/BO bit, sometimes it jams on the tip of the main blade, blunting the tip. All in all not a big problem, and you still can't beat Victorinox quality.
 
edmundo.gurza said:
Case is sort of close to the amount of automation.. but you are definitely right about GEC and Queen they are more hands on.. however they could very easily automate some of the steps that are key to fit the knife and still have a very unique hand finished knife.
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One of the biggest issues is scales. Victorinox uses stable plastic or aluminum and one steel.... that makes things a little simpler and easier.
 
Jack Black said:
I think that's true, with automation, artistry is lost. But automation and quality control are two entirely seperate things and don't necessarily go together. There are automated knife factories that regularly turn out shoddy or defective products, and, shall we say 'artisan cutlers' (:D) with good QC.

Not that I consider Case 'artisan cutlers'! Much as I like their knives, I think it's laughable for Case to call them 'handmade'. The video on the Case website, shows a very automated process.
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Automation greatly increases your chances of making a consistent and quality product if the engineering is right and the machines are kept up.
 
pinnah said:
IMO, on the face of it, the Victorinox isn't a "boringly consistent" knife as Woodrow put it (not that you're wrong, Woodrow) but a consistently middle to bottom of the pack knife that is perceived as being good: a) by merit of the basic utility of camper pattern, b) the near universal dominance they achieved in the 1970s backpacking revolution and c) the global brand recognition they've achieved since then.
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Oh, I use the term "boringly consistent" in an affectionate way.... much like gun owners may refer to a Glock pistol. As many as they make, they more or less come out exactly the same. You can fly anywhere, pick one up from the store and already know what you are getting and it will be a great tool. Since I bought it, I carry that Farmer probably more often than any other knife. I'm as fond of it as any of my others. It's a great knife. I think some knives have some soul when they are made, but a SAK seems to get it's soul when it gets used.
 
They make a ton of models with different tools. I've owned 10 and all were perfect, even decently Sharp ootb. They are non threatening. Overall they are probably the best value and most useful pocketknives around.
 
I've carried the tinker for years. Wish the steel was a little harder. But never had any real problems with the knife failing, have been a bit hard on them at times.
 
pinnah said:
Jack, I think it's related to what constitutes a fault.

Would a GEC be considered faulty if a blade was a nail breaker?

Would a Buck be considered faulty if the edge rolled easily?

Would a Case be considered faulty if the scales fell off in short order?

Would a Leatherman be considered faulty if they had removable tools that became loose and fell out with routine use?

IMO, that these aren't widely seen as faults of Victorinox is a result of the branding success. A disconnect here is that I think these are design and material faults and not manufacturing faults. Consistent, yes. Good? Shrug.
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We see far worse faults from some of these companies being regularly excused, but I think if those things occurred with Victorinox or Wenger knives, they should be seen as faults. The purpose of my original question was to elicit from the knife users here if they've had SAKS with these sort of faults. Judging from the replies posted, it seems that manufacturing defects with SAKS are very rare. I have to agree with what Dan said.

Dan57 said:
The reason that those aren't widely seen as faults of Victorinox is because they aren't widely seen, period.
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By the way, I'm not shilling for Victorinox, I prefer the Leatherman Micra over the Vic Classic.

dogstar said:
I've currently own 2 Tinkers, a Bantam and a couple of Classics.

The main blade on one of my Tinkers is warped so the tip contacts the flat screwdriver/bottle opener. I am reluctant to snap the blade closed for fear of tip damage, so I let her down easy. If I'm not careful closing the SD/BO bit, sometimes it jams on the tip of the main blade, blunting the tip. All in all not a big problem, and you still can't beat Victorinox quality.
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This to me IS a genuine fault, one of the very few highlighted here. Was it like that when you bought it Dogstar or has it warped during use (just interested to know if it slipped past Victorinox QC)? Either way, I'm sure they'd change it.

Woodrow F Call said:
Oh, I use the term "boringly consistent" in an affectionate way.... much like gun owners may refer to a Glock pistol. As many as they make, they more or less come out exactly the same. You can fly anywhere, pick one up from the store and already know what you are getting and it will be a great tool. Since I bought it, I carry that Farmer probably more often than any other knife. I'm as fond of it as any of my others. It's a great knife. I think some knives have some soul when they are made, but a SAK seems to get it's soul when it gets used.
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Very well put Woodrow.

Many of us have been using the same SAKS for decades and despite a lot of use and carry, in my experience not a lot goes wrong with them. That's not to say that I prefer them over other knives, I don't, but that is a different question.
 
What makes the Q/A all the more spectacular is the price point of SAKs are between $20 to $40
 
neeman said:
What makes the Q/A all the more spectacular is the price point of SAKs are between $20 to $40
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Absolutely. I guess the high level of automation and the large numbers produced reduces costs very significantly, but I doubt their workers are poorly paid, and the materials used are of reasonable quality. They also seem to really stand by their product. I can understand why much smaller manufacturers can't compete on price, but they don't seem to be able to compete on consistency either. If I buy a new knife with a sharp edge these days, it's almost like I've got a miracle! :D Maybe smaller cutlers can't afford to scrap every knife that isn't perfect, but surely they could at least make sure they had an edge on them? In the long run sending out defective knives (and we see some very poor examples from time to time here) will lose them business and cost them far more than getting things right in the first place.

When I was a boy, and the Sheffield cutlery industry was busy ruining a reputation built over centuries by turning out junk, they blamed the Japanese or Hong Kong, for bringing them down by producing cheap knives. I've always argued that if they'd competed on quality, instead of on price, there might be more left of the Sheffielkd cutlery industry than there is today.

While Victorinox has clearly cornered the market in terms of producing Swiss Army Knives (though Leatherman tools are stiff competion), and smaller manufacturers can't (and shouldn't) aspire to their level of automation and mass production, I think a lot could be learned in terms of their QC.
 
The simple fact of the matter is, Victorinox makes darn near perfect knives in the number they do, because they do have the most automated knife factory in the world. Modern CNC machines are capable of turning out spot on production components at exact specs. Back when Leatherman first came out, Victorinox made a choice, and spent a record amount of profit back into the company in new machining technology. They bought the absolute latest in CNC equipment, capable of very high spindle speeds and feed rates. This allowed them to make even more SAK at a lower cost. Theey make around 35 to 40 million knives a year. The second most automated knife factory in the world is Opinel. Opinel makes about 15 million knives a year.

American business model unfortunately does not allow for this. Schrade, Camillus, and all the other now defunct American knife companies that are history, made the choice to just leep doing what they did, with no modernization. When I saw the photo's of the equipment being carried out of the Camillus factory, I was shocked. They had machines that were at home in a 1940's wrought iron works. Pitiful, and 30 to 40 years out of date. Some of the new Schrade knives I looked at in the last year or two before they went under, could only be described as junk turned out by throwing together any parts laying around, good or not.

Victorinox, and the Elsner family that runs it, had the good sense and business foresight to look where the the market and they were going. They have not practiced any unfair business practice, aside from spending a great deal of money keeping up their factory to modern standards of 21st century production. You don't have a successful company in business since 1890, 123 years, and have a world wide reputation for a reliable product, by making blades that roll over from "stroking a soft kitten" or tools that don't work. You can call it branding or whatever you want, but you can't fool that many people all over the world for over a century by hyping a poor product. The Duck rule applies here. If they are making millions and millions of knives a year, and selling them in most countries in the world, are millions and millions of people that stupid for buying them? If it has a big rep as a great tool, and millions of people a year are scarfing them up, and it's one of the most popular item for sportsmen, soldiers, and everyday people from all walks of life, it must be pretty good. It quacks, therefor it must be.

Nothing is perfect. Yes, sometimes the scales on a SAK pop off. They are snap on scales, and some people do not know that. They are actually meant to be easily replaced by the owner. You can buy new scales in different colors, and even glow in the dark one to snap on whatever SAK you have. If a scale does pop off, a dab of Goop fixes it. Goop is the recommended fix they recommend. But in all the decades now I've had just one pop off. Karen had the scale on one of her little classics come off from being banged around on her keyring, and a drop of Goop has fixed it for two years now. So, that addresses the scale issue.

Name me any other knife/tool that I can fly anywhere in the U.S., if not the world, land and buy one at the first big store I come to for the price of a fast food lunch or a few beers, use the heck out of, knowing it will be razor sharp out of the box, and just give it away when I leave? Leatherman is too expensive to think about tossing it when done. There is no alternative choice. Victorinox has nailed down a market nitch that they rule. More power to them. The fact that they are so predictable in a world of mediocre products is amazing. If you don't like them because they aren't your cup of tea, so be it. But to go on about how they are branded, inferior and bottom of the heap is just ridiculous in the face of the world wide acceptance of them as a benchmark of quality.

Carl.
 
Great post Carl.

That American business model sounds like it was adopted from the British one!
 
jackknife said:
Name me any other knife/tool that I can fly anywhere in the U.S., if not the world, land and buy one at the first big store I come to for the price of a fast food lunch or a few beers, use the heck out of, knowing it will be razor sharp out of the box, and just give it away when I leave? Leatherman is too expensive to think about tossing it when done. There is no alternative choice. Victorinox has nailed down a market nitch that they rule. More power to them. The fact that they are so predictable in a world of mediocre products is amazing. If you don't like them because they aren't your cup of tea, so be it. But to go on about how they are branded, inferior and bottom of the heap is just ridiculous in the face of the world wide acceptance of them as a benchmark of quality.
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Carl, your description of the Victorinox and Opinel factories are spot on and I agree whole-heartedly. Also agree about your conclusions both about Victorinox having the good sense to focus on its niche while maintaining staggeringly high QC levels. If you want to watch another US company that is stumbling much as you describe just look at Buck. Their product line has become bloated, they moved their factory and QC is struggling (admitted by Buck folks on teh Buck sub-forum). In this way, I agree with the thrust of Jack's OP and with you. Victorinox has been smart and has earned their place.

I stand by my comment about the knives being mid tier at best though. Consider the blade material question. This thread (including posts from Knarfang) is informative and consistent with other web reporting.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...e-of-steel-does-victorinox-use-on-their-sak-s

Summarizing, Victorinox's INOX is similar to 420HC or 12C27Mod, which is good. But, the heat treatment puts at 55-56 RC, which is on the soft side. For all their faults, Buck runs their 420HC up to the 58+ range as does Opinel with their 12C27Mod. Case SS is usually reported to be 420HC (or something similar) and like Victorinox reported to be lower on the hardness scale down in the 56 RC range.

The ability to take away material with a stone depends more on the carbon content and the carbides. In this respect, all 4 of these abrade away easily. But I find Case SS and Victorinox Inox to be very similar in how they form stubborn wire edges and this is due to softness of the blade material. I find them similar in use too. The edges fold over easily when working wood and need a fairly obtuse edge angle to hold an edge for a reasonable length of time. Buck and Opinel are better this regard due to their higher RC, imo.

Yes, Victorninox consistently produces blades at 55-56 Rc. But IMO, this puts them decidedly mid to low tier. A Rough Rider or (gasp) Taylor Schrade with a Chinese variant of (consistent) 440A won't be that different.

Again, I agree completely with your take on Victorinox's commitment to modern production and focus on a niche. Their designs stay very close to the same basic recipe and that is a good thing. I've said so much over the past few years in the Buck sub-forum in discussions about the problems Buck is having with blade play and I've ruffled a few feathers there. IMO, Buck should follow Victorinox's example, trim their product line, invest in modernizing their equipment and drive out the QC issues they face. But I digress.

As for branding... It's there.
 
"Yep, 'cept in Sheffield they've got machines that are closer to 1840 than 1940!"

What really made me sad was that kind of business model totally destroying the entire British motorcycle industry in a single decade. The world wide Japanese motorcycle invasion of the early 1960's pointed out the dire need to modernize the tooling, yet like the Detroit auto industry, they kept pumping out the same tired product until the doors closed on Triumph, Norton, BSA, Matchless, Royal Enfield.

Ahhh, I need to go make a breakfast toddy!

Carl.
 
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