Has anyone ever had a defective Swiss Army Knife?

[pmew]

What an interesting topic!

IMHO it is not the branding, & not even the QC that is the huge advantage enjoyed by Victorinox.
The secret to their success is "Fine Blanking".

I believe the Fine Blanking process was originally developed to produce watch & clock gears.
It is a process that "blanks" out (think cookie cutter) the required shape from the coils of steel, but in this case all the edges of the parts are perfectly smooth & square & the part is perfectly flat.

In the traditional blanking process, there is considerable "die tear" or "breakage" all around the edges.
For example, if Camillus was making a pen spring (double end spring), first we would blank out the spring. Then we punched the hole, then we cropped the ends. Of course these secondary operations would bend the spring, so we had to Level them (make them flat). After heat treatment we would then sand off the breakage on the inside surface of the spring. Then after assembly we would haft (sand off) the breakage on the back of the spring, along with the breakage of the linings and all the other mating parts.

By comparison, a SAK spring is blanked, heat treated & tumble polished!
Not only faster & cheaper, but hugely more consistent.

The same is true when they blank their blades & tools!
No material to be removed from the edges, no holes to be punched in secondary operations.
& no variation in any of the parts!!

So why did the American (or British!) Cutlery Industries not use fine blanking?
Firstly I do not believe the Swiss exported the technology until 20 or 30 years ago.
Then there is the downsides to Fine Blanking:
Only mediocre steels can be blanked; try to make a 440 blade (or even 420HC), break the die!
Then there is the tool costs, figure $200,000 for the pen spring die we just discussed.
Fine Blanking presses start at about $3,000,000 for a reasonable size!

After all the advantages of Fine Blanking, the SAK's then enjoy the advantages of design for manufacture.
No sanding or polishing after assembly.
No assembly pins to flare into bolsters or bone handles.
Almost every step of manufacture is fully automated. (I doubt a SAK Classic is touched by human hand except inspection!)

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way putting down the SAK.
I fully admire the engineering that has gone into making them what they are.
But to a "Traditional Cutlery" lover like myself, they are the Bic Lighter of the knife business.
Cheap, reliable, consistent & dull.

But to ponder why Case or GEC cannot match their quality & pricing?
Wait until they produce one with 154CM blades, nickel silver bolsters & jigged bone handles, then let's talk.

Wise words. I'm enjoying this thread.

 

[Dan57]

Wise words. I'm enjoying this thread.

Same. Thanks for the insight, Phil!

 

[dogstar]

This to me IS a genuine fault, one of the very few highlighted here. Was it like that when you bought it Dogstar or has it warped during use (just interested to know if it slipped past Victorinox QC)? Either way, I'm sure they'd change it.

I'm not sure if it came this way or was bent in use. I purchased this knife over a decade ago, before I was a knife knut. I didn't go over each purchase with a fine toothed comb back then. The only tough thing I did with this blade was to cut a 3-layer thick cardboard box one time.. Maybe I warped it then As I said before, Victorinox quality is second to none at any price; I would not hesitate to buy one or recommend them to others.

 

[Jack Black]

Pinnah, please excuse me for dissecting your last post in this way, but as it was quite long, it seemed like the only way to reply to it.

Jack

Exaggerated?

EG:

soft stainless blades with a tendency to roll or burr when rubbed against soft kittens

Any more than the praises?

This thread wasn’t posted as a ‘Victorinox worship’ thread, it invited any negative experiences people had of Wenger and Victorinox SAKs. The experience of most posters here seems to be a positive one, defects seem rare and QC seems good. I have no reason to interpret the posts of members on this subject as anything other than genuine and honest, rather than “exaggerations”, or the ramblings of fools duped by branding.

Your direct response to my OP asking if anyone had ever had a defective SAK started:

I dunno...

Before going on to:

I've destroyed maybe 8 or 10 Classics. Most last less than 2 years before the scales fall off. Key ring carry is hard, admittedly.

(And then onto your experiences with Leatherman)

I know many posters here admire the ‘Classic’, but for me they are the toy of the Victorinox range, they’re a key-ring knife certainly. It would be interesting (and actually relevant to my OP) to hear how you came to “destroy” these diminutive knives, and why you kept on buying them. It would also be interesting to hear your actual experiences of other SAKs, (since that was the purpose of this thread). Bearing in mind your admitted life-long antipathy towards SAKs, I’m surprised you’ve even bought a single one.

You've asked an interesting question in asking, "Compared to what in anything like the same price bracket?"
Looking at the SAKs as modern multi-tools as opposed to traditional campers, I would say compared to the Leatherman line. If we focus on the SAK 3 1/4" frame size (the most common) and compare it to the Leatherman Juice line, I would (and do) spend my money on the Leatherman's. More functionality and durability for about the same price and about the same weight (Leathermans are a tick heavier by an ounce or so).

AS A MULTI-TOOL, I’d also go for the Leatherman, though here in the UK, most are not in anything like the same price bracket. I think Leatherman produce some great products (including the Juice line), but they’re very different beasts (I don’t regard most as knives at all). How about we have a discussion about Leatherman tools in a separate thread? I’m sure it would be an interesting one, and this thread could very easily have been posted to elicit people’s experiences of the Leatherman range, but it wasn’t. I asked the question about SAKs because they’re inexpensive and owned by most. Yet for their low price and huge volume of sales, they seem to be able to maintain good QC.

Looking at the SAKs as high volume, mass produced pocket knife, I would say compared to Rough Rider.

I think RR knives have a place in the market, but I wouldn’t compare them to SAKS. I have 3 RR knives, quality is good for the price, but they all have faults. I dare say that if we posted a ‘Has anyone ever had a defective Rough Rider ?’ thread, the responses would be different to this one.

I've yet to be wowed with them, particularly the Victorinoxes.!

Now that’s an exaggeration Pinnah!

I've found the Wegners to be better in every way when comparing them directly.

So your experience of SAKs isn’t all negative then? Any defects with the Wengers? I have a Wenger World Scout Knife I used to use as a travelling knife, but overall I prefer Victorinox, at least in terms of the ones I’ve handled.

I should add that I’ve never actually bought a single SAK for myself, the ones I have all been either gifted or received as test models. When it comes to buying knives, my interests lie elsewhere, as your own.

I know people don't like to talk marketing.

Personally I find the subject very interesting, and a good topic for discussion, but I don’t think it is relevant to the question posed in my OP (interesting as your thoughts on marketing are to read, and I find a great deal to agree with) - unless you’re saying that the positive posts made in this thread are not genuine experiences, but are in fact people deluding themselves as a result of marketing. We both know that happens, but personally, I don’t think it applies here. While you’ve probably been wanting to make some of these very valid points about the mass appeal of SAKs for a while, I think you should start a thread about that, it’d be a good one I think

IMHO it is not the branding, & not even the QC that is the huge advantage enjoyed by Victorinox.

The secret to their success is "Fine Blanking".

Phil Gibbs, absolutely fascinating post on Fine Blanking (only abbreviated here to save space).

But to ponder why Case or GEC cannot match their quality & pricing?
Wait until they produce one with 154CM blades, nickel silver bolsters & jigged bone handles, then let's talk.

Good point!

I'm not sure if it came this way or was bent in use. I purchased this knife over a decade ago, before I was a knife knut. I didn't go over each purchase with a fine toothed comb back then. The only tough thing I did with this blade was to cut a 3-layer thick cardboard box one time.. Maybe I warped it then As I said before, Victorinox quality is second to none at any price; I would not hesitate to buy one or recommend them to others.

Thanks for the reply to my query, it does sound like you got a duff one.

 

[scruffuk]

Very interesting thread all-round.

Great information Phil Gibbs :thumbup:

 

[edmundo.gurza]

Great information! It is awesome to hear the good and the bad of this particular brand from such knowledgeable people!

 

[pinnah]

Pinnah, please excuse me for dissecting your last post in this way, but as it was quite long, it seemed like the only way to reply to it.

NP. Good fun and all.

Honestly, you smiled a bit with the "soft kittens" comment, right?

This thread wasn’t posted as a ‘Victorinox worship’ thread, it invited any negative experiences people had of Wenger and Victorinox SAKs. The experience of most posters here seems to be a positive one, defects seem rare and QC seems good. I have no reason to interpret the posts of members on this subject as anything other than genuine and honest, rather than “exaggerations”, or the ramblings of fools duped by branding.

We (and I include myself in this) aren't fools duped by branding but at the same time, denying that it's "in the very air we breath" seems equally problematic.

I'll try not to hijack your thread. Really. I recognize that I'm on odd duck. I've worked most of my career in as an engineer (different field than materials) and have served time working in marketing organizations (it only hurts for a second when they rip out your soul). I know I come across as either overly blunt about object (the engineer) or obtuse (the marketing influence).

As an engineer, I recognize both engineering/design flaws and manufacturing/QA flaws. The first asks, "Are the specs correct for the task?" and the second, "Was the produced item up to spec?"

If you want to keep the discussion on the second only, that is fine. As I've said above, I agree with the thrust of the question. Victorinox has amazingly few production flaws and amazingly good QC.

But, when I sit trying to sharpen a friend's SAK and am struggling to hone off the stubborn wire edge, the engineer in me considers the soft steel a defect. It's a design defect, not a manufacturing defect. But it's definitely a defect imo. I think Stitch has it right. I really should just hand my friends one of those cheap roller rod sharpeners and send them on their way.

I know many posters here admire the ‘Classic’, but for me they are the toy of the Victorinox range, they’re a key-ring knife certainly. It would be interesting (and actually relevant to my OP) to hear how you came to “destroy” these diminutive knives, and why you kept on buying them. It would also be interesting to hear your actual experiences of other SAKs, (since that was the purpose of this thread). Bearing in mind your admitted life-long antipathy towards SAKs, I’m surprised you’ve even bought a single one.

I bought a few for me and my wife early on. After that the one's I've gotten have been gifts either from family or business give-aways. I've probably purchases as many Victorinox knives as any single brand, mostly for friends and family as gifts for backpacking (a passion of mine). As you correctly noted, it's really the only camper pattern knife on the market today and easily recognized by the receiver, so it's a safe bet. I get frustrated at the nail breaker pulls on many of them (noted in my earlier posts) but a) I won't be carrying it and b) I know it's unlikely the person I'm giving it to will ever use awl bit or whatever tool is jammed up.

As for destroying Classics... I've said repeatedly (no exaggeration) that I get about 18 months out of them. Scales fall off. Main blades loosen. Scissor springs fail. Tweezers and toothpick eject randomly. I miss the latter. Note... My problem probably is that I *use* the Classic when I carry it. Never once had a Micra fail in any way though. Victorinox may have better QC but Leatherman has superior design.

AS A MULTI-TOOL, I’d also go for the Leatherman, though here in the UK, most are not in anything like the same price bracket. I think Leatherman produce some great products (including the Juice line), but they’re very different beasts (I don’t regard most as knives at all). How about we have a discussion about Leatherman tools in a separate thread? I’m sure it would be an interesting one, and this thread could very easily have been posted to elicit people’s experiences of the Leatherman range, but it wasn’t. I asked the question about SAKs because they’re inexpensive and owned by most. Yet for their low price and huge volume of sales, they seem to be able to maintain good QC.

IMO, the "toys" in the Victorinox line aren't the Classic (standard lobster, really) but the 4 or more spring contraptions with loads of tools on them.

I agree with you that a Leatherman style multitool is a lousy knife. IMO, the same applies to SAKs like the Ranger pictured above for the same reasons - the ergonomics become so compromised it's hard to use the knife blade well.

IMO, the equal end knife platform just can't support that many small tools in a useable manner and the folding pliers frame becomes better.

There's actually a phrase I hear regularly in my work as an engineer (not from me). It goes something like this... "That product is like a Swiss Army Knife." When this is said in the engineering circles I work in, it's not a compliment. It means the product has been stuffed with too many silly features none of which work particularly well. Speaking as an engineer, the QC at that point doesn't matter. The design is flawed.

Personally I find the subject very interesting, and a good topic for discussion, but I don’t think it is relevant to the question posed in my OP (interesting as your thoughts on marketing are to read, and I find a great deal to agree with) - unless you’re saying that the positive posts made in this thread are not genuine experiences, but are in fact people deluding themselves as a result of marketing. We both know that happens, but personally, I don’t think it applies here.

I wouldn't use the phrase "deluding themselves" on this point. And I do think the point bears making in this thread.


Two stories...

1) In another non-knife forum, we got talking about knives and a guy who graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design and then went on to a notable career designing skiing and mountaineering equipment said the following about knives. He said he had a theory that the favorite knives of a country reveal something of their character. He said something along the lines of...

"The Mora is elegant and practical, just like the Swedes. The Opinel is beautiful but dangerous and good with cheese, just like the French. And the Buck 110 is big, brash and capable of skinning a deer, or at least pretending that you might."

That "pretending that you might" quip is spot on. The marketing folks will tell us that mostly what we sell to people is a dream of who people want to be or to become. That's why I feel safe in giving SAKs to friends getting into hiking. It's sort of a cultural icon of being a hiker. I do this full well knowing that the knife will spend almost all of it's time in storage with other underused hiking gear and that it will deliver the primary use of a blade if/when called upon but more importantly, I know the person will feel assured that they are capable of doing the hiking equivalent of skinning a deer (even though they probably won't).

2) Paraphrasing Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", quality is that which produces peace of mind among the user. SAKs produce incredible levels of "peace of mind". That's why I give them as gifts, despite my (engineer's) opinion on them.

And yes, I think the cultural icon status influence how people perceive the question of "defects" that you've raised. Victorinox has pretty much cornered the market on the camper pattern at this point and yes, they have nearly flawless QC. These things are related but it's more complicated than saying, as some here have, that Victorinox has cornered this niche due to superior technology.

Last thing... I recently gifted Wegner Highlanders to my wife and daughter for the upcoming hiking season.

I did this knowing that if we need to trim some moleskin to handle a blister on the trail, they will ask for my Leatherman Squirt for the scissors. And I know when it comes time to cut summer sausage or spread peanut butter, they will end up asking me for my Opinel. But neither of them want to carry 2 knives and both of them have more peace of mind with an SAK because and SAK is the expected thing.

I may go on and on and on and on on internet forums but I'm smart enough to give those close to me what will make them happiest. They're not dupes.

 

[pinnah]

IMHO it is not the branding, & not even the QC that is the huge advantage enjoyed by Victorinox.
The secret to their success is "Fine Blanking".

I believe the Fine Blanking process was originally developed to produce watch & clock gears.
It is a process that "blanks" out (think cookie cutter) the required shape from the coils of steel, but in this case all the edges of the parts are perfectly smooth & square & the part is perfectly flat.

(snip...)
Then there is the downsides to Fine Blanking:
Only mediocre steels can be blanked; try to make a 440 blade (or even 420HC), break the die!

I wonder if there have been more recent improvements in fine blanking machinery that allows manufacturers to fine blank steels like 420HC, Sandvik 12C27M and the "Inox" that Victorinox uses (reported to be similar to 420HC and 12C27M)?

In the Buck sub-forum, workers from Buck report that they use fine blanking on most of their 420HC blades.
See post #2 here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/987310-Forming-blades-shapes-at-Buck

Buck also discusses it here:
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=about.glossary

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way putting down the SAK.
I fully admire the engineering that has gone into making them what they are.
But to a "Traditional Cutlery" lover like myself, they are the Bic Lighter of the knife business.
Cheap, reliable, consistent & dull.

+1

 

[jakemex]

As my boys used to say when they were little tykes: "I can't like em".

 

[spydutch]

Yup, I've had 2.
One Original Soldier which developped vertical play in the main blade after some minor cutting (didn't know it was possible on slip joints).

One Settler NIB. It had major blade rub in both blades. If I didn't let the blades snap shut I had to really push the blades close the last mm.

Send both knives in and got them back in the exact same state.

Oh well.......

Tried to repair the Settler myself, but didn't succeed.

 

[jakemex]

NP. Good fun and all.

Honestly, you smiled a bit with the "soft kittens" comment, right?




We (and I include myself in this) aren't fools duped by branding but at the same time, denying that it's "in the very air we breath" seems equally problematic.

I'll try not to hijack your thread. Really. I recognize that I'm on odd duck. I've worked most of my career in as an engineer (different field than materials) and have served time working in marketing organizations (it only hurts for a second when they rip out your soul). I know I come across as either overly blunt about object (the engineer) or obtuse (the marketing influence).

As an engineer, I recognize both engineering/design flaws and manufacturing/QA flaws. The first asks, "Are the specs correct for the task?" and the second, "Was the produced item up to spec?"

If you want to keep the discussion on the second only, that is fine. As I've said above, I agree with the thrust of the question. Victorinox has amazingly few production flaws and amazingly good QC.

But, when I sit trying to sharpen a friend's SAK and am struggling to hone off the stubborn wire edge, the engineer in me considers the soft steel a defect. It's a design defect, not a manufacturing defect. But it's definitely a defect imo. I think Stitch has it right. I really should just hand my friends one of those cheap roller rod sharpeners and send them on their way.



I bought a few for me and my wife early on. After that the one's I've gotten have been gifts either from family or business give-aways. I've probably purchases as many Victorinox knives as any single brand, mostly for friends and family as gifts for backpacking (a passion of mine). As you correctly noted, it's really the only camper pattern knife on the market today and easily recognized by the receiver, so it's a safe bet. I get frustrated at the nail breaker pulls on many of them (noted in my earlier posts) but a) I won't be carrying it and b) I know it's unlikely the person I'm giving it to will ever use awl bit or whatever tool is jammed up.

As for destroying Classics... I've said repeatedly (no exaggeration) that I get about 18 months out of them. Scales fall off. Main blades loosen. Scissor springs fail. Tweezers and toothpick eject randomly. I miss the latter. Note... My problem probably is that I *use* the Classic when I carry it. Never once had a Micra fail in any way though. Victorinox may have better QC but Leatherman has superior design.



IMO, the "toys" in the Victorinox line aren't the Classic (standard lobster, really) but the 4 or more spring contraptions with loads of tools on them.

I agree with you that a Leatherman style multitool is a lousy knife. IMO, the same applies to SAKs like the Ranger pictured above for the same reasons - the ergonomics become so compromised it's hard to use the knife blade well.

IMO, the equal end knife platform just can't support that many small tools in a useable manner and the folding pliers frame becomes better.

There's actually a phrase I hear regularly in my work as an engineer (not from me). It goes something like this... "That product is like a Swiss Army Knife." When this is said in the engineering circles I work in, it's not a compliment. It means the product has been stuffed with too many silly features none of which work particularly well. Speaking as an engineer, the QC at that point doesn't matter. The design is flawed.




I wouldn't use the phrase "deluding themselves" on this point. And I do think the point bears making in this thread.


Two stories...

1) In another non-knife forum, we got talking about knives and a guy who graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design and then went on to a notable career designing skiing and mountaineering equipment said the following about knives. He said he had a theory that the favorite knives of a country reveal something of their character. He said something along the lines of...

"The Mora is elegant and practical, just like the Swedes. The Opinel is beautiful but dangerous and good with cheese, just like the French. And the Buck 110 is big, brash and capable of skinning a deer, or at least pretending that you might."

That "pretending that you might" quip is spot on. The marketing folks will tell us that mostly what we sell to people is a dream of who people want to be or to become. That's why I feel safe in giving SAKs to friends getting into hiking. It's sort of a cultural icon of being a hiker. I do this full well knowing that the knife will spend almost all of it's time in storage with other underused hiking gear and that it will deliver the primary use of a blade if/when called upon but more importantly, I know the person will feel assured that they are capable of doing the hiking equivalent of skinning a deer (even though they probably won't).

2) Paraphrasing Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", quality is that which produces peace of mind among the user. SAKs produce incredible levels of "peace of mind". That's why I give them as gifts, despite my (engineer's) opinion on them.

And yes, I think the cultural icon status influence how people perceive the question of "defects" that you've raised. Victorinox has pretty much cornered the market on the camper pattern at this point and yes, they have nearly flawless QC. These things are related but it's more complicated than saying, as some here have, that Victorinox has cornered this niche due to superior technology.

Last thing... I recently gifted Wegner Highlanders to my wife and daughter for the upcoming hiking season.

I did this knowing that if we need to trim some moleskin to handle a blister on the trail, they will ask for my Leatherman Squirt for the scissors. And I know when it comes time to cut summer sausage or spread peanut butter, they will end up asking me for my Opinel. But neither of them want to carry 2 knives and both of them have more peace of mind with an SAK because and SAK is the expected thing.

I may go on and on and on and on on internet forums but I'm smart enough to give those close to me what will make them happiest. They're not dupes.

Yeah, what he said. ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Phil Gibbs]

I wonder if there have been more recent improvements in fine blanking machinery that allows manufacturers to fine blank steels like 420HC, Sandvik 12C27M and the "Inox" that Victorinox uses (reported to be similar to 420HC and 12C27M)?

In the Buck sub-forum, workers from Buck report that they use fine blanking on most of their 420HC blades.
See post #2 here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/987310-Forming-blades-shapes-at-Buck

Buck also discusses it here:
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=about.glossary

+1

I am not aware of any changes in Fine Blanking steel capabilities.
I was under the impression that Buck uses 425 Modified for their blades to be Fine Blanked (a steel I believe was developed to be tolerable to the process).
Perhaps Buck has indeed managed to Fine Blank 420HC?
If they have I will bet the tool requires excessive maintenance.

One of the horrible truths to knife making is: the better the blade steel, the harder the work!

 

[Jack Black]

Another interesting post Pinnah

NP. Good fun and all.

Honestly, you smiled a bit with the "soft kittens" comment, right?

I did

I recognize that I'm on odd duck.

Hey, I don’t like Opinels, but realise I’m in a small minority

when I sit trying to sharpen a friend's SAK and am struggling to hone off the stubborn wire edge, the engineer in me considers the soft steel a defect. It's a design defect, not a manufacturing defect. But it's definitely a defect imo. I think Stitch has it right. I really should just hand my friends one of those cheap roller rod sharpeners and send them on their way.

Y’see I really don’t find the steel so bad or find them so awkward to sharpen, but then to be fair, mine don’t see much hard use these days.

I suspect that the vast majority of SAK owners never use them enough for them to need sharpening.

The SAK branding perhaps wasn’t as widespread in the past, certainly not in the Sheffield I grew up in. As a youngster I’d never heard of SAKs, and later I aspired to own different knives. My first SAK was the Victorinox Mauser, a present from my then girlfriend when I was in my early 20’s, but it was a knife I did want. The Mauser wasn’t really marketed much at all, it was always an obscure knife, and was sold as a Mauser knife, rather than a Victorinox or a SAK, and it wasn’t red!

I bought a few for me and my wife early on. After that the one's I've gotten have been gifts either from family or business give-aways. I've probably purchases as many Victorinox knives as any single brand, mostly for friends and family as gifts for backpacking (a passion of mine). As you correctly noted, it's really the only camper pattern knife on the market today and easily recognized by the receiver, so it's a safe bet. I get frustrated at the nail breaker pulls on many of them (noted in my earlier posts) but a) I won't be carrying it and b) I know it's unlikely the person I'm giving it to will ever use awl bit or whatever tool is jammed up.

I’ve always gifted SAKS to others, in similar circumstances, and for similar reasons. I’ve not had a problem with the pulls on mine.

As for destroying Classics... I've said repeatedly (no exaggeration) that I get about 18 months out of them. Scales fall off. Main blades loosen. Scissor springs fail. Tweezers and toothpick eject randomly. I miss the latter. Note... My problem probably is that I *use* the Classic when I carry it. Never once had a Micra fail in any way though. Victorinox may have better QC but Leatherman has superior design.

I’m surprised you’ve had so many Classics. As you know, I’m also a fan of the Micra, as a small pocket tool I like the design better, and think it superior for key-ring carry (mine rub the heck out of my pockets. I’ve also not had a defective Leatherman product.

Out of interest, apart from the Classics, how did you get on with the other SAKs you’ve carried?

IMO, the "toys" in the Victorinox line aren't the Classic (standard lobster, really) but the 4 or more spring contraptions with loads of tools on them.

For me, these are more like novelty items, I’ve had two Swiss Champs (one a gift, the other perhaps, oddly, sent to me by Wenger) as well as a Wenger Major, which used to be Wenger’s equivalent, and I really don’t like them. They have far too many blades to be useful, and I’d classify them as pocket tool-boxes rather than knives. They seem to be about showing off, and most of the tools on the really big knives, I don’t consider fit for purpose.

I agree with you that a Leatherman style multitool is a lousy knife. IMO, the same applies to SAKs like the Ranger pictured above for the same reasons - the ergonomics become so compromised it's hard to use the knife blade well.

Yes absolutely, one and two-layer SAKs make much more sense.

IMO, the equal end knife platform just can't support that many small tools in a useable manner and the folding pliers frame becomes better.

I agree entirely.

Two stories...

1) In another non-knife forum, we got talking about knives and a guy who graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design and then went on to a notable career designing skiing and mountaineering equipment said the following about knives. He said he had a theory that the favorite knives of a country reveal something of their character. He said something along the lines of...

"The Mora is elegant and practical, just like the Swedes. The Opinel is beautiful but dangerous and good with cheese, just like the French. And the Buck 110 is big, brash and capable of skinning a deer, or at least pretending that you might."

That "pretending that you might" quip is spot on. The marketing folks will tell us that mostly what we sell to people is a dream of who people want to be or to become. That's why I feel safe in giving SAKs to friends getting into hiking. It's sort of a cultural icon of being a hiker. I do this full well knowing that the knife will spend almost all of it's time in storage with other underused hiking gear and that it will deliver the primary use of a blade if/when called upon but more importantly, I know the person will feel assured that they are capable of doing the hiking equivalent of skinning a deer (even though they probably won't).

I was just making this very point to a friend in relation to children’s pushchairs, which now seem to be designed to compete with tanks, and it’s the reason why outdoor companies plaster their advertising with pics of their high-end products in use on Everest when serious mountaineers are a tiny niche market. I understand the point fully, and it’s something I’m very familiar with, and find interesting to discuss. I wish this discussion had been in a different thread, but to some extent I’ve surrendered!

2) Paraphrasing Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", quality is that which produces peace of mind among the user. SAKs produce incredible levels of "peace of mind". That's why I give them as gifts, despite my (engineer's) opinion on them.

They do, but to a large extent, I think they should, they’re reliable knives. I’d certainly buy a SAK for people I wouldn’t give any other knife to. I bought a Leatherman for my Son-in-law

 

[pinnah]

Out of interest, apart from the Classics, how did you get on with the other SAKs you’ve carried?

I allow the SAKs in my life to live out their days in the hands of friends and family. I've been hiking with the same group of guys for nearly 30 years and have had the chance to watch a few of them "age" in their hands. Also see one I gave a wedding present to by bro-in-law on his sailboat regularly. From what I've observed, they perform exactly as most people describe them. For average use, they seem to hold up well enough. I've been married over 25 years so the gifted ones have been banging around. But... they don't use knives as much or as hard as I do either.

Hey, I don’t like Opinels, but realise I’m in a small minority

SAKs are a superior consumer product. (<- this is not a praise) Opinels are not. You are not in the minority on this, I suspect. There may be a lot of Opinel fans on this forum but we're all knife knuts. Opinels seem to survive despite their crudeness. They really demand some TLC to be useable imo. Given a normal, knon-knife knut and and Opinel and an SAK out of the box, the SAK is the winner. That's why I gift them to more non-knife people. I give Opinels only to people I think will get it and who are willing to work a bit with the knife (like lubing the joint).

Opinel :: SAK
Brooks Saddle :: Generic bike saddle

Sorry to have dragged your thread off track. Wasn't my intent. "Defect", like Pirsig's "quality" is a squirrely word. Hard to define but easily recognized.

 

[Jack Black]

SAKs are a superior consumer product. (<- this is not a praise) Opinels are not. You are not in the minority on this, I suspect. There may be a lot of Opinel fans on this forum but we're all knife knuts. Opinels seem to survive despite their crudeness. They really demand some TLC to be useable imo. Given a normal, knon-knife knut and and Opinel and an SAK out of the box, the SAK is the winner. That's why I gift them to more non-knife people. I give Opinels only to people I think will get it and who are willing to work a bit with the knife (like lubing the joint).

Opinel :: SAK
Brooks Saddle :: Generic bike saddle

Part of the reason (and it is only part) for my dislike of Opinels is the way, unlike SAKs or any other knife, they were heavily marketed and hyped here in the 70's and 80's as being superior cutlery (and of course tres romantique), when we still had a British cutlery industry and decent Sheffield knives could be bought for less than an Opinel here. No, I'd gladly burn the lot of them! But that is a discussion for another time my friend

 

[edmundo.gurza]

I love the multiple directions that this thread has taken. All in good fun!

 

[pinnah]

Part of the reason (and it is only part) for my dislike of Opinels is the way, unlike SAKs or any other knife, they were heavily marketed and hyped here in the 70's and 80's as being superior cutlery (and of course tres romantique), when we still had a British cutlery industry and decent Sheffield knives could be bought for less than an Opinel here. No, I'd gladly burn the lot of them! But that is a discussion for another time my friend

I''ll buy the ale (or beer) for that discussion.

Just replace Victorinox and Boy Scout Knives and you understand my distaste for SAKs. As another BIL says, "Same circus. Different clowns." The rise of the global icons.

Carrying an Ulster Camper today, just because.

 

[kamagong]

Part of the reason (and it is only part) for my dislike of Opinels is the way, unlike SAKs or any other knife, they were heavily marketed and hyped here in the 70's and 80's as being superior cutlery (and of course tres romantique), when we still had a British cutlery industry and decent Sheffield knives could be bought for less than an Opinel here. No, I'd gladly burn the lot of them! But that is a discussion for another time my friend

You'd have to be daft to pass up a Sheffield slipjoint in favor of an Opinel if they were priced anywhere in the same ballpark.

- Christian

 

[Jack Black]

I''ll buy the ale (or beer) for that discussion.

:thumbup:

Just replace Victorinox and Boy Scout Knives and you understand my distaste for SAKs. As another BIL says, "Same circus. Different clowns." The rise of the global icons.

Carrying an Ulster Camper today, just because.

I think I understood it from the beginning, just thought it was off topic.

You'd have to be daft to pass up a Sheffield slipjoint in favor of an Opinel if they were priced anywhere in the same ballpark.

- Christian

Well, we often hanker after the exotic and that which is different, particularly when it's backed up with a good marketing campaign

 

[dogstar]

I've been carrying a classic for a couple of years now. I had a pretty beat up one that I bought for $3, carried it for a year, gave it to a friend. Still had lots of life left in it. Bought a better used one (TSA confiscations are too good to pass up) and am using it now. No damage every came to either knife. I've dropped them a few times and the scales got dinged, but that's it. They cut zip ties, blister packs and cardboard. I wonder what you are doing, Pinnah, to break these knives on a regular basis.