Has anyone ever had a defective Swiss Army Knife?

[Jack Black]

"Yep, 'cept in Sheffield they've got machines that are closer to 1840 than 1940!"

What really made me sad was that kind of business model totally destroying the entire British motorcycle industry in a single decade. The world wide Japanese motorcycle invasion of the early 1960's pointed out the dire need to modernize the tooling, yet like the Detroit auto industry, they kept pumping out the same tired product until the doors closed on Triumph, Norton, BSA, Matchless, Royal Enfield.

A crying shame Carl, the motorcycle industry was in an even bigger mess than the cutlery industry. I know there are a few of us here who love those old bikes.

 

[Jack Black]

I've said so much over the past few years in the Buck sub-forum in discussions about the problems Buck is having with blade play and I've ruffled a few feathers there. IMO, Buck should follow Victorinox's example, trim their product line, invest in modernizing their equipment and drive out the QC issues they face. But I digress.

Not too much of a digression I don't think, it's always sickening to see a company you care about going downhill or having problems. Some QC issues can be difficult and expensive to fix, others are very simple I think.

 

[StuntDouble]

The only issue I can ever remember having with either of my Victorinox models is the tip of the main blade hitting the liner if I let the blade snap close. Other than that, they've held up to anything I've thrown at them.

They may be low-end bottom tier to some, but at least they don't become nearly impossible to open and close if the handle gets wet.

 

[pinnah]

Didn't Victornox invent the so called 'Camper'?
I am missing the point of this last post a little maybe (possibly due to it being very early here), but isn't this very pattern defined by those four basic tools (or very slight variations there of)?

It is my understanding that the Swiss Army Soldier 1890 pattern was where those 4 tools came together.

From http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1890

But note that it was a barehead type frame.

I don't know when the first US made campers appeared. Here is a BSA knife from New York Knife dating from the teens.

From: http://www.scoutknives.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=77

Note that the US-style camper is on an Equal End frame with bolsters. My understanding is that the official military issue SAK remained a barehead design until the 50s. I'm not sure when Vicotorinox adopted the bolsterless equal end frame style. I think more important in the distinction is when Victorinox put the springs in the middle of the frame, allowing for tools on both sides. Not sure if that was their innovation or not.

It's worth noting that US-style campers (and BSA knives in particular) almost always were on an Equal End frame but the blade configurations varied wildly back in the pre WW2 era. By the 1960s or 70s, the 4 blade seems to be about the only one seen. In constrast and to their credit Victorinox and Wegner both continued to focus on and made many variations, which IMO is what spelled the end of the US campers.

Is your actual gripe in this instance with Victorinox, or rather with other people's perceptions, for what four tools could be used in a 'knife' or multi tool package??

My only gripe is that I don't think they're particularly well engineered knives. Great QC to be sure. Soft steel. Clunky designs. Flimsy scales.

My comments about branding are not a criticism. I used to work in product management and dealt with outbound marketing folks. I have great admiration for how well they've managed the brand image. My criticism is for the buyers of SAKs who gloss over the mediocre engineering issues. That's just branding speaking, imo.

FWIW and to the credit of Victorinox, branding trumps engineering. We used to call it the geeks fallacy - the belief that a better product wins in the market place. Sometimes it does. Sometimes winners are mediocre.

 

[Jack Black]

I think that it's fair to say that having a can-opener on a knife would have only been useful after canned food became widespread. Likewise with the cap-lifter. Sportsman's knives and lobster patterns go way back, but of course had different tools.

I'm not sure anyone came up with the parcel-hook before the Swiss though!

 

[jc57]

I've only owned 5 SAKs in my life, 4 of which I have today and are relatively recent purchases. No problems with any of them.

 

[Jack Black]

My only gripe is that I don't think they're particularly well engineered knives. Great QC to be sure. Soft steel. Clunky designs. Flimsy scales.

Compared to what in anything like the same price bracket? I have to say, I really don't think the scales can be called flimsy, and while the steel may be softer than some, it performs perfectly well. I think that some of your criticisms are exaggerated.

My comments about branding are not a criticism. I used to work in product management and dealt with outbound marketing folks. I have great admiration for how well they've managed the brand image. My criticism is for the buyers of SAKs who gloss over the mediocre engineering issues. That's just branding speaking, imo.

FWIW and to the credit of Victorinox, branding trumps engineering. We used to call it the geeks fallacy - the belief that a better product wins in the market place. Sometimes it does. Sometimes winners are mediocre.

It's certainly true that mediocre products can dominate the marketplace through branding and the power of advertising - Gore-Tex being a prime example - but I wouldn't call Victorinox SAKs mediocre, and you seem to be pretty much alone here in that opinion. Many folk may buy SAKs because they're red, shiny, or whatever, but I think most of our fellow forum users can be credited with a bit more intelligence than that. Many of us have carried SAKs for years and they've proved themselves. They're not my regular choice now, but I still wouldn't disparage them.

 

[pinnah]

Compared to what in anything like the same price bracket? I have to say, I really don't think the scales can be called flimsy, and while the steel may be softer than some, it performs perfectly well. I think that some of your criticisms are exaggerated.

Exaggerated? Any more than the praises?

You've asked an interesting question in asking, "Compared to what in anything like the same price bracket?"

Looking at the SAKs as modern multi-tools as opposed to traditional campers, I would say compared to the Leatherman line. If we focus on the SAK 3 1/4" frame size (the most common) and compare it to the Leatherman Juice line, I would (and do) spend my money on the Leatherman's. More functionality and durability for about the same price and about the same weight (Leathermans are a tick heavier by an ounce or so).

Looking at the SAKs as high volume, mass produced pocket knife, I would say compared to Rough Rider. By most accounts, Rough Rider has been producing very consistent and consistently OK knives at a very low price point. They're not my cup of tea either, but there you have it. (Note, I wouldn't compare them to Buck's pocket knives as many of them are using even softer 420J2 steel now - sigh.)

Looking at SAKs as the single most recognizable default knife to be stocked by a store catering to backpackers, hikers and campers in the US (which I believe to the core of their popularity and acceptance in the US and the reason that Carl and I can both find them in the camping section of any *mart store)... well... that's super interesting to consider. It's not clear to me that the SAK stays there forever. Single blade knives like Benchmade and multi-tools like Leatherman seem to have more counter space. And Gerber is making a big push with Bear Gryliss's grimace. And it would be interesting to be US brand manager for Opinel. The Opinel Outdoor has some possibilities but really needs to be tweaked for the US hiking market, imo. Interesting to consider.

It's certainly true that mediocre products can dominate the marketplace through branding and the power of advertising - Gore-Tex being a prime example - but I wouldn't call Victorinox SAKs mediocre, and you seem to be pretty much alone here in that opinion. Many folk may buy SAKs because they're red, shiny, or whatever, but I think most of our fellow forum users can be credited with a bit more intelligence than that. Many of us have carried SAKs for years and they've proved themselves. They're not my regular choice now, but I still wouldn't disparage them.

I've yet to be wowed with them, particularly the Victorinoxes. I've found the Wegners to be better in every way when comparing them directly. And to be honest, if you put the $40 in my hands and I wanted stainless, I would just grap 2 old Camillus Scout knives off an auction site. Actually, I lie. I prefer the 1095 from Schrade so I would (and have and will again) use the money to get an cheap Ulster; this despite the flimsy Swinden key problem. And actually, I still lie. For $40 I would rather carry a Leatherman Micra and an Opinel. Better functionality. Better durability.

I know people don't like to talk marketing. It makes us all uncomfortable to discuss how we're influenced by it I think. My sense is that people don't buy Victorinox knives or Wegner knives. They buy "Swiss Army Knives". The term is a marketing dream shot. The army reference creates images of toughness and capability, sort of in the same way that Gerber is trying to trade on Bear Gryliss's success. I think this is one of the problems the US makers ran into with their association with the Boy Scouts of America. "Scout" knife sort of translates into "kids toy", and that's a problem.

But the association with Switzerland and the carefully managed image of all things Swiss to help with Swiss exports is the real deal sealer. "Swiss Army" evokes images of precision and neutrality. Consider the following list of alternative names and you start to see the marketing power that Victorinox has brought to the game with their Swiss government licensed use of the term Swiss Army Knife. Read through this list and consider your emotional reaction to the term.
US Army Knive
British Army Knive
French Army Knive
Russian Army Knive
Ugandan Army Knive
Pakistani Army Knive
Chilean Army Knive
Indonesian Army Knive
Rwandan Army Knive

Compare this to your reaction to the terms:
Swiss bank
Swiss trains
Swiss watch
Swiss chocolate

Now consider "Swiss Army Knife". It's almost unstoppable as a marketing tool.

From where I sit, Victorinox claimed the coveted seat of the next to cash register display knife in American camping and hiking stores. A big part of this is to their credit owing to their focus on the niche and their commitment to QC. Another big part of it is the failure of the US cutlery business to do the same. The Boy Scout knives just sort of trailed off and died in the 80s and weren't to keep a foot hold in the camping stores after WWII. And a massive part of it the incredible brand management of the term "Swiss Army" to evoke the reactions of precision, neutrality and toughness in the right balance. Just brilliant.

They're still middle of the road knives at best though, IMO.

 

[Fanglekai]

There is always a tradeoff between harder steel and easier to sharpen. For everyday tasks what does the SAK steel fail at? It's trivial to sharpen and doesn't require diamonds. It doesn't fail to cut if sharp. It doesn't rust easily. It's incredibly easy to maintain with stones, sandpaper, ceramics, or whatever.

 

[pinnah]

This hasn't been my experience with sharpening.

I actually find Victorinox Inox (and Case SS) to be hard to sharpen.

Buck's 420HC is much easier for me to sharpen.

All 3 abrade easily enough on standard stones, especially compared to steels like 440C. Abrasion resistance isn't related to hardness (as in RC) but is related to carbides.

The sharpening problems with Victorinox Inox and Case SS is that their softness (around 55-56 Rc as reported) makes them prone to folding at the edge or forming a new wire edge during the sharpening process. Sharpen them side by side with something like Schrade/Ulster 1095, Opinel Carbone, Opinel Inox or Buck's 420HC. These steels all have similar abrasion resistance (or lack there of, hence easy material removal with standard stones) but have higher hardness (as in RCs in the 58-59 range, hence the resistance to forming wire edges during sharpening). IME, it's a fairly stand-out difference.

 

[sitflyer]

To me the modern Vic is the Bic lighter of the knife industry, refined down to where they can be easily and affordably banged out by the millions and have almost universal acceptance and consistent quality. I've never encountered an issue with a new SAK, and will always toss a few in the carryon when going on dive trips. Never had one pilfered from my luggage, and they are always well received when handed out at the end of my trip. I know what to expect from them and use them accordingly. A lot of folks I know don't even know how to properly sharpen a knife, for them a carbide V scrape sharpener will give them a useable edge on the softer HT, and if they pry, which many do, the blade may bend rather than snap...a smart strategy if you ask me. They will do most mundane cutting tasks, which is all non knife nuts require, with ease.

Will "Take a licking and keep on ticking!"

Yup, not my usual go to knife at all, but in a pinch I KNOW that I can grab one at any hardware/ outdoor store and have a useful tool that I can rely on...

 

[pmew]

Buy a new battery, clean the battery contacts with rubbing alcohol and be careful not to handle the battery with your bare fingers while installing it in place. Hold the battery in a piece of tissue paper, etc. after cleaning. Sometimes, the oil from your fingers/skin is enough to mess up the battery contacts.

Sorry, only just noticed your reply to my post Ed. I shall do as you suggest. Although it is a bit gimmicky, I was gifted it. Who buys a knife with a clock on it.

 

[jackknife]

Sorry, only just noticed your reply to my post Ed. I shall do as you suggest. Although it is a bit gimmicky, I was gifted it. Who buys a knife with a clock on it.

Who builds a knife with a light in it?

Victorinox built it, and they came!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Carl.

 

[Thalestin]

@ Pinnah...
Honestly, sak knives have never really appealed to me. I got one as a kid and I used it a lot. It worked. It was actually a clone. Fast forward many years...well being a knife nut I wanted to give one a try. Again, don't really sing to me in anyway. I used it and it works great. Steel is fine, the tools work. Alox or plastic the knives just work. They have never warmed my heart and I actually get nothing from the marketing. I dislike mainstream stuff but use it if it works.

I really think you hold more of a "Swiss army" grudge more than anything. Most posters here have no problem reaming in on a company that messes up. SAKs work as a knife. Nuff said really

 

[KuRUpTD]

Fortunately all my SAKs have been perfect so far.

 

[Vanguard41xx]

All of mine have been great so far, besides one that I bought from Lowe's a while back. All the blades had a gritty feeling, and was persistent even after I blew compressed air through the joints.

 

[Toddwalla]

I have close to thirty SAKs and carried the same Bantam for 8 years when I was working in a warehouse. It cut pallet straps, cardboard, cordage and everything else that I asked of it. I still carry that same knife occasionally. From my personal experience with both Victorinox and Wenger, I have never had an issue aside from a chipped scale here and there, but only after using it for a number of years. I love them so much that I still carry a camper in my bag, have a spartan by my chair in the den and keep a rally on my keychain (you never know when you need to lift a cap). I, for one, did fall victim to their successful branding. If it wasn't for MacGyver I wouldn't have anywhere near as many SAKs.

 

[Arugess]

I experienced a loose screw on my scissors a 30-year old Wenger Toolchest. I went to the warranty repair centre today and they did the repair right on the spot to adjust the screw end (not the head) so that it was tightened up by flaring the end with a punch. No other issues in any of the other Wenger or Victorinox SAKs that I've owned.

 

[Phil Gibbs]

What an interesting topic!

IMHO it is not the branding, & not even the QC that is the huge advantage enjoyed by Victorinox.
The secret to their success is "Fine Blanking".

I believe the Fine Blanking process was originally developed to produce watch & clock gears.
It is a process that "blanks" out (think cookie cutter) the required shape from the coils of steel, but in this case all the edges of the parts are perfectly smooth & square & the part is perfectly flat.

In the traditional blanking process, there is considerable "die tear" or "breakage" all around the edges.
For example, if Camillus was making a pen spring (double end spring), first we would blank out the spring. Then we punched the hole, then we cropped the ends. Of course these secondary operations would bend the spring, so we had to Level them (make them flat). After heat treatment we would then sand off the breakage on the inside surface of the spring. Then after assembly we would haft (sand off) the breakage on the back of the spring, along with the breakage of the linings and all the other mating parts.

By comparison, a SAK spring is blanked, heat treated & tumble polished!
Not only faster & cheaper, but hugely more consistent.

The same is true when they blank their blades & tools!
No material to be removed from the edges, no holes to be punched in secondary operations.
& no variation in any of the parts!!

So why did the American (or British!) Cutlery Industries not use fine blanking?
Firstly I do not believe the Swiss exported the technology until 20 or 30 years ago.
Then there is the downsides to Fine Blanking:
Only mediocre steels can be blanked; try to make a 440 blade (or even 420HC), break the die!
Then there is the tool costs, figure $200,000 for the pen spring die we just discussed.
Fine Blanking presses start at about $3,000,000 for a reasonable size!

After all the advantages of Fine Blanking, the SAK's then enjoy the advantages of design for manufacture.
No sanding or polishing after assembly.
No assembly pins to flare into bolsters or bone handles.
Almost every step of manufacture is fully automated. (I doubt a SAK Classic is touched by human hand except inspection!)

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way putting down the SAK.
I fully admire the engineering that has gone into making them what they are.
But to a "Traditional Cutlery" lover like myself, they are the Bic Lighter of the knife business.
Cheap, reliable, consistent & dull.

But to ponder why Case or GEC cannot match their quality & pricing?
Wait until they produce one with 154CM blades, nickel silver bolsters & jigged bone handles, then let's talk.

 

[kamagong]

Thanks for sharing your insights on the manufacturing process Phil.

- Christian