Hatchet vs. Big ol' knife

[shecky]

Actually what I'd be interested in is trying or seeing more things looking like that, general idea, not necessarly that particular design.

I have a Two Handed Machete. Mostly because it was cheap and eye catching. Would make a great prop. As a chopper, it's OK. The length makes it easy to put lots of energy into each stroke. However, that energy can make it stick pretty badly in some woods. It looks like the same blade is available with a short handle in Cold Steel's Heavy Machete.

Here's an interesting thread

http://ramanon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39504

That $20 Fiskars hatchet is really pretty good. Despite it's light weight, the weight distribution seems to make it work well.

 

[hollowdweller]

So let me get this straight ... is anybody here seriously looking at packing an axe or hatchet for a survival/wilderness bug out on foot? If so I'm pretty surprised.

I take my hatchet along all the time. I use the thin side for chopping and felling small trees and the thick side for splitting. It is 12" OAL and about 19oz
When I have to really worry about weight like when I expect to carry a lot of water I carry the GB mini because it's so much lighter. The fixed blade is thin 3/32 so great for slicing and food prep plus it is real easy to keep sharp.

 

[Tikirocker]

Hollowdweller,

I hear that, thanks for the pics and expansion of your useage. Perhaps it's a hemispheric thing - seems maybe the hatchet and axe are better favoured in the north than down here in the tropics and Asian pacific areas. My problem comes from the fact that I am looking at weight and space in ultimate utilitarian terms of pure necessity. When you are on the move, in the case of a bug out and may need to escape and evade, I can assure you what you think is useful for camping trips and short wilderness trips goes out the window.

In 2003 I walked/hiked 800 miles from the south of France, over the French Pyrennese ( in one day ) and then across the rough countryside of northern Spain to Santiago. That trip taught me a hell of a lot about being on the move with a pack and a purpose - moving to a deadline etc. You would be amazed how little you need to carry and what really is a necessity compared to what is simply overkill.

Nearly everybody I saw hiking on that trip was stripping down and leaving stuff in towns or shipping stuff back home by mail ... nobody could hack the constant travel with the packs they THOUGHT were bare necessity. There is a big difference between easy going trips into the wilderness for a few days without the stress of escape and evade and needing to be on the move with the things you carry on a camping trip.

I live in Mountains and rough country - some of the most harsh in Australia and I do a lot of hiking here and what I have learned from that trip through Spain and what I know from the Australian outback is that 80% of what you think you can carry and need to carry - if pressed to do it on the move every day, you would soon be dumping. The bottom line I guess is a light axe may be ok but as I said earlier ( forgive me for harping on ) - it just seems like overkill in the time of a bug out - there will be better options for a persons needs and far more important things you will be wanting to carry, that a small axe will occupy. That axe will make a huge weight and space difference no matter how light you believe it to be ... people dump socks on trails to lighten a load!

EDIT - If I want to cut something big or small for a bug out I just use a light weight saw wire ... bingo!

This makes an axe or hatchet redundant for any serious survivalist. Also note Military survival schools supply their soldiers with a big knife for survival not an axe or hatchet with good reason.

 

[tarmix101]

I take my hatchet along all the time. I use the thin side for chopping and felling small trees and the thick side for splitting. It is 12" OAL and about 19oz.

Sorry to go a little OT. I have a Reeves axe coming in about 5-6 months. I think it might have been your post in the "Axe and Tomahawk" sub forum that got me looking into Lee's axes.

I also like the axe/thin fixed blade/folding pocket knife for my edged gear when out. My Grandfather never had anything more than his axe, and single blade folder (I think it was a Schrade) in his pocket. Not saying that is the "end all be all" just what I was introduced to, and it stuck with me.

 

[sevenedges]

Tikirocker, you could not be more right when you talk of weight issues during backpacking. This thread is very intesesting with many people making very valid points. I like to backpack, and weight is of a MAJOR concern when covering long distances as you know. Everyone I have backpacked with has learned this the hard way. Including me. Ounces add up very fast. What you really need on backpacking trips vary from one trip to the next, (with the exception of a non wavering list) depending on where you are, and where you're going, among other things. www.backpackinglight.com will cover this in more detail for anyone interested. I have turned into a lightweight backpacker. It is hard for me to justify carrying a bowie because of weight. However, I do because I love large knives. And it greatly enhances the experience of my backpacking trip. Other heavy objects get left behind. (except for my socks) I've learned to only wear what's on my feet. Maybe one more pair in really rare exceptions.

 

[akennedy73]

Hollowdweller,


In 2003 I walked/hiked 800 miles from the south of France, over the French Pyrennese ( in one day ) and then across the rough countryside of northern Spain to Santiago. That trip taught me a hell of a lot about being on the move with a pack and a purpose - moving to a deadline etc. You would be amazed how little you need to carry and what really is a necessity compared to what is simply overkill.

Okay, Tiki, now you've got me really intrigued!

What was your basic set of gear? What served as shelter? Fire? How did you procure food and water?

Maybe you should start another thread and tell us all about it... personally, I'd be fascinated if you'd fill in the details! :thumbup:

 

[Tikirocker]

Tikirocker, you could not be more right when you talk of weight issues during backpacking. .

G'day Seven!

Nice to meet a fellow packer who learned the hard way just like me! Everybody learns the hard way mate - everybody. It is only until a person has done serious long distance hiking where the strain and miles on the body take heavy toll day after day that a person has any true apreciation of weight and what that really means and adds up to. Without being un generous I must say I do see a great deal of unrealistic packing ideas from people on some survivalist forums. You look at the list and know right away in a bug out where the body meets the road and carried the load 80% is going to be left behind.

You hit the nail on the head ... it gets down to ounces ... and even milligrams of weight when you are hitting the wilderness with a pack - like I showed above. If I need to cut something I would use a wire saw over an axe or hatchet without thinking - the space and use issue is beyond vital as you know. I have my personal kit very carefully thought out based on my hiking experiences - no fat on the bone my friend.

 

[hollowdweller]

I never hike longer than about 4 days, so while weight is important for me, it wouldn't be the same as the scenario you describe.

That would be kind of the once or the twice of a lifetime trip for me, and for sure you'd have to think about every pound. How did you carry all that food that you needed? My friend Kate went for 2 and a half weeks once and she said the hardest part was figuring out how to carry 2 weeks worth of food on her back.

I like to go 3 or 4 days about 1 time a month from spring to fall and seldom walk more than 10 miles in a day so although keeping weight down is a definate consideration, I like being able to have a nice fire, maybe cook sstuff that requires 2 pots, and take in the sights, you know "smooth it" not rough it, so my priorities are difft.

By the way that Chainsaw is what I was referring to earlier in the thread. They are awesome!!

 

[Tikirocker]

Okay, Tiki, now you've got me really intrigued!

What was your basic set of gear? What served as shelter? Fire? How did you procure food and water?

Maybe you should start another thread and tell us all about it... personally, I'd be fascinated if you'd fill in the details! :thumbup:

You're intrigued to the point of eye rolling? Not sure what that means mate ... but I'll give it a shot. The trip across Spain was not a full blown bug out/wilderness camping out type trip - we had rough accomodation in huts or medieval churches called Refugios dotted in various towns. So I was not camping out doors - though food was procured from townsfolk but very simple too.

The point and issue of the Spain trip was about learning what to pack, what to pack and the lesson of weight and it's effect on the body over long distances day after day after day after day ... you have no chance to rest up and heal - you can be feeling dead after 30 miles of rough country with backpack one day and yet you need to get up at 5am the next day and do it allover again in different terrain and weather. The lesson of all this is fast learned and no person is spared the lesson of utility.

Coupling my experiences of distance hiking in vast terrain in Spain ans the issues of weight + my camping and wilderness experiences in Australia I have reached simple conclusions that dictate my choices and my recognition that a small axe or hatchet is just wishful thinking in a serious bug out - as Seven has said above - those who have put a foot to the long trail know the lesson of weight and utility and never need another.

As I said earlier ... an axe or hatchet no matter how light is overkill in the extreme for a survivalist on the move.

 

[Tikirocker]

How did you carry all that food that you needed?

By the way that Chainsaw is what I was referring to earlier in the thread. They are awesome!!

The main thing we carried was water ... WATER WATER WATER ... this was THE most vital resource in Spain and sometimes you would be many miles from anywhere with fresh potable water ... food we carried with us from a village where we bought some. The main issue of food on this trip was simple and this wasn't so hard to find like a full blown bug out. My illustration and point regarding the Spain trip as I said above was the lesson of weight, space and utlility + the damage on the body on the move.

My plans for food procurement and outdoor survival in bug out have been hugely influenced however by that trip in Spain and my observance of others in the outback in Australia namely the indigenous people.

P.S The saw chain is awesome indeed!

 

[hollowdweller]

It is hard for me to justify carrying a bowie because of weight. However, I do because I love large knives. And it greatly enhances the experience of my backpacking trip. Other heavy objects get left behind. (except for my socks) I've learned to only wear what's on my feet. Maybe one more pair in really rare exceptions.

We're all knife heads so part of going out is getting to play with our blades!

I used to carry way to many clothes. Also when I first used to go I wore cotton. You know the lightweight stuff they make to wear now is great. I can remember 20 years ago how heavy all the clothes were. I think my boots weighed six pounds.

I used to carry my Coleman Peak 1. Now I either use my wood burner or cook on the fire.

I experimented this summer with the light weight trail shoes but while they enabled me to climb hills even faster than lightweight boots after a 23 mile hike over really rocky terrain with a pack my ankles were swollen for 2 days after the hike was over. Not enough support.

Water is also heavy. When we hiked North Fork Mt. a few years ago which is totally dry we had to totally re think our usual gear because we were carrying like 20 lbs of water each. I really like to carry the bare min of water to get me from one fill up spot to the next.

 

[runningboar]

As I said earlier ... an axe or hatchet no matter how light is overkill in the extreme for a survivalist on the move.

If you are talking about covering long distances as fast as possible then OK, but if you are talking about bugging out to the hills and surviving, I will have a hatchet. I am afraid I am with hollowdweller and others with a hatchet a small fixed blade and my pocket knife, perhaps it is a regional thing. Chris

 

[hollowdweller]

The main thing we carried was water ... WATER WATER WATER ... this was THE most vital resource in Spain and sometimes you would be many miles from anywhere with fresh potable water ... food we carried with us from a village where we bought some. The main issue of food on this trip was simple and this wasn't so hard to find like a fill blown bug out. My illustration and point regarding the Spain trip as I said above was the lesson of weight, space and utlility + the damage on the body on the move.

My plans for food procurement and outdoor survival in bug out have been hugely influenced however by that trip in Spain and my observance of others in the outback in Australia namely the indigenous people.

So you could buy food along the way? That would eliminate the need to carry a lot of stuff. Shelter? No need for a tent or tarp. Yeah water is super heavy. See my post above.

You mention lack of good water. Was it desert or the water unsafe? Could you use a water filter?

 

[hollowdweller]

PS a big tip of the hat for AKennedy73 for starting this thread. It has walked and wandered and been really fun!

 

[akennedy73]

You're intrigued to the point of eye rolling? Not sure what that means mate ... but I'll give it a shot.

Those are eyes rolling in astonishment - what you accomplished is an amazing feat of human endurance!

 

[Tikirocker]

If you are talking about covering long distances as fast as possible then OK, but if you are talking about bugging out to the hills and surviving, I will have a hatchet. I am afraid I am with hollowdweller and others with a hatchet a small fixed blade and my pocket knife, perhaps it is a regional thing. Chris

G'day Chris,

My attitude to the bug out mate is that what I carry is my home - I never assume being able to stay in one place and rest and be safe for lengthy periods therefore my entire raison détre regarding survival is based upon the most dire need to move and keep moving - IF I have the luxury to hunker down somewhere then I am also well prepared but you'll never find me dumping stuff on the move because it's become a burden ... I fear many other people will sink their only resource for a given service ( ie a tool for cutting or whatever ) by choosing unwisely something too large and too heavy.

Again, what you THINK is light, when you get going isn't at all ... I wouldn't ever assume you won't need to be on the move making distance fast ... a nuke would necessitate you do exactly that to escape the immediate blast radius ... I don't think the hills near you will be where you want to hang for any length of time for all kinds of food and water reasons as well as many, many more.

My bug out gear assumes the worst scenario and my choice of tools for the job to keep me going on the run and moving fast leave no fat on the bone in terms of weight and space. Who can afford to assume anything less?

 

[Tikirocker]

Those are eyes rolling in astonishment - what you accomplished is an amazing feat of human endurance!

Ahh ok, I am new here so perhaps missed something - eye rolls are usually sarcastic so ...

It was one of the hardest things I have ever done I kid you not and I lost about 2 stone in weight by the time I got done. Hiking over the Pyrennes in one day with my heavy pack ( before I learned my lesson!!! ) nearly killed me. The people I really respected were people like this guy I made friends with from Flanders ... he was doing the same trip as me and was 70 years old! I made it my job to look after him on the trail where I could - I gave him half of my water whenever I saw he didn't pack enough or have enough. It was a fantastic experience and one that gave me invaluable tools for survival - 80% of my skill set comes from that trip ... packing!

 

[runningboar]

Tiki,

You may assume too much, because of my profession I am very familiar with covering long distances fast carrying a pack, as a matter of fact it is a requirement. It is not unusual for me to do an 8 mile forced march with full gear starting at 0430 and then shower and shave and then work a 12 hour day.

Where I live a hatchet is a very compact, handy cutting tool, mine has a poll on the back making a handy hammer, which big knives do not offer as has been mentioned.

IMO your plan of staying on the move has some merit but you are eventually going to have to stop, and when you do a hatchet is a good thing to have, again, at least where I live.

 

[Tikirocker]

Chris,

I respect your right to choose mate, I'm just laying out my argument from my own position and perspective. I agree that one day you will want to stop - my point is simply that you don't want to have to discard that axe of hatchet on the fast move or find yourself needing something else that could have taken it's place in weight when a saw chain would have got the same job done.

Even if I get to the place where I stop ... I'll still have my saw chain but I'm not so confident people will have their axes or hatchets.

PS- Regarding your comment "you may assume too much" - On the contrary, the heart of my manifesto is to assume nothing and prepare for that.

 

[akennedy73]

Ahh ok, I am new here so perhaps missed something - eye rolls are usually sarcastic so ...

It was one of the hardest things I have ever done I kid you not and I lost about 2 stone in weight by the time I got done. Hiking over the Pyrennes in one day with my heavy pack ( before I learned my lesson!!! ) nearly killed me. The people I really respected were people like this guy I made friends with from Flanders ... he was doing the same trip as me and was 70 years old! I made it my job to look after him on the trail where I could - I gave him half of my water whenever I saw he didn't pack enough or have enough. It was a fantastic experience and one that gave me invaluable tools for survival - 80% of my skill set comes from that trip ... packing!

I think there's a lot to learn from your experience - I'm already giving it some deep thought about my own bug-out plans. Although I've increasingly tried to emphasize lightness (from my own backpacking experiences), I think you're pointing to a whole new level to consider.

Perhaps you should give your skill set a cool "Zen" name - like "The Art of Not-Packing"....