Hatchet vs. Big ol' knife

[Cliff Stamp]

I have great opportunity to handle knives from different manufactures which may not be obvious to you.

Which ones did you use extensively and sell because of lack of performance. Did you attempt any edge optomization?

-Cliff

 

[Gryffin]

Tiki, GB mini is lighter than many choppers out there and the space it takes up is equivalent to that of choppers.

Good point.

I either pack a tweaked Vaughan Mini Axe and Bark River Fox River, or a Ratweiler. I was surprised to discover that the hatchet and mid-size knife, together, weight less than the big Rat!

I get the impression that a lot of the anti-axe folks posting on this thread have 20"+ axes in mind, not the small, light, efficient ones like the Gransfors Bruks, Vaughan, or Bark River hatchets. Heck, I think even my old Norlund hatchet weighs less than the Ratweiler...

 

[Tikirocker]

G'day Skunk!

Great post mate and I really agree with all you said there - you know it regarding the carrying of things that add useless weight! It always seems like a good idea AT the time but do it once and you never do it again.

Our only knives carried back then were pocket knives. No chopping, no extra expenditure of calories. Firewood was picked up, or broken by hand, or simply laid across the fire as a long piece, until it burned into to pieces.

This is so important and something I always shake my head at - I have always said foraging for felled branches and dry wood takes very little time and requires zero cutting or chopping - an axe or hatchet isn't necessary when these jobs can be done by hand or foot OR as you suggested - lay a long bit over a fire and wait until it's burned in two ... VOILA! I mean anything you bring to do those jobs is completely redundant in terms of utility, weight and space.

I've carried a machete on 3 continents and can't say enough good things about them.

I spent time in Africa on some big game hunts in Botswana and Zimbabwe and the trackers there never carried anything but a machete and a big belt knife - the very same tools favoured by Bush Tucker man Les Hiddens in my country and our Military - hell, the Military of most western nations. I thoroughly concur! I'd most likely NOT take a Golok in my bug out due to size and weight but for a general wilderness trip that's planned definately. The reason for leaving the Golok behind is that again utility, weight and space. My bug out includes a biggish knife like the Tusker and a Hunting Bow which is another reason I have to be very picky about my gear.

This brings me to the question of guns ... I am a shooter but have no plans to take my guns on any serious bug out again due to utlility but this is a whole other discussion and I have major reasons - ammo chief among them. The pro's of a bow is silence and silent kills and the ability in the field to fashion arrows - you can't fashion rounds in the wilderness and at some point the rifle or pistol hits the dirt.

However, in my case, I never once, while carrying a good machete wished I had a hatchet. I have, on occasion, wished I had the machete with me.

I like a hatchet for chopping wood in my back yard ... agree though, I've never missed one in the bush or wilderness.

I have tried to outsmart , out-buy and out-think the military's approach to packs, and to gear in general, but, in a lot of cases, they really spent the time researching and testing. Example, pots and pans, and cook wear. I've used it all, packed it all, now, where am I? Back to realizing that the good old canteen cup is about the best , lightweight pot/bowl/cup you'll need to survive. The fact it fits right under the canteen, even better. the great thing about military items is that they are typically affordable, as well. Where am i going with the military angle? They don't carry hatchets.
They carry knives, bayonets, entrenching tools, but not hatchets.

Exactly ... I'm with you on the single canteen also.

Personally, I think that somewhere in between is a hybrid set-up, and that is what we consider the wilderness-survivor. Equipped to survive. Equipped to stop and set up semi-permanent digs, but, yet, lightweight enough to pack it all up, and move along as necessary. He is not so specialized that he will be caught without proper gear. The soldier and the hiker/backpacker being more on the specialized end of the spectrum. The wilderness-survivor is not going to outpace the hiker. But, perhaps the hiker, when he runs across the wilderness-survivor will be most pleased that there is some water, food, and shelter to be shared.

Good call and well put - I'm certainly in the hard core end of bug out but I honestly can say that my general hiking and wilderness trip kit is just a smaller version of my bugout kit. Until that happens though there is room for everybody and many ideas on getting a particular job done. :thumbup:

 

[Tikirocker]

I get the impression that a lot of the anti-axe folks posting on this thread have 20"+ axes in mind, not the small, light, efficient ones like the Gransfors Bruks, Vaughan, or Bark River hatchets. ...

Actually no, if you read back you will see I adressed those too ... the saw chain makes them redundant. The small weight and space you think these things take up is a massive drain on the REAL world utility ratio in the bug out - you start talking to hikers with allot of experience over distance and you'll get the same attitude as mine regarding anything like a hatchet or axe for wilderness or survival ...

Hey ... it's your choice though.

 

[Halcon]

Cliff,

I have used Siegles, Ferhmans, Beckers, Cold Steel, Busses, Simonich, etc.. No I have not reground edges.

I stated earlier, I sold all my choppers. Not because I didn't like them but because from a utilitarian point, they were limited... in my opinion. I now use a hatchet and a smaller camp knife. I do not regret my decision in the least, at all, zip, nada, nil.

there is always going to be to schools of thought and that's okay. I am just expressing my opinion, based on my experience.

Alan

 

[Gryffin]

Actually no, if you read back you will see I adressed those too ... the saw chain makes them redundant.

I wasn't referring to you. You've done a great job of explaining your rationale, and I can see why you carry what you do.

I was referring rather to the folks who seem to just assume that any axe weighs more than any knife, and dismiss them out of hand.

Hey ... it's your choice though.

That's what makes the world go 'round!

I haven't really chosen, though. Sometimes I take the Rat, sometimes I take the hatchet, sometimes I take both. For me, both solutions work pretty darn well. But I haven't hiked 800 miles like you have, though, so my perspective is a bit different than yours.

 

[Tikirocker]

I wasn't referring to you. You've done a great job of explaining your rationale, and I can see why you carry what you do.

I was referring rather to the folks who seem to just assume that any axe weighs more than any knife, and dismiss them out of hand.


That's what makes the world go 'round!

I haven't really chosen, though. Sometimes I take the Rat, sometimes I take the hatchet, sometimes I take both. For me, both solutions work pretty darn well. But I haven't hiked 800 miles like you have, though, so my perspective is a bit different than yours.

My mistake mate ... I'm an old woman about this stuff - a lot like an ex smoker in a room of smokers.

 

[hollowdweller]

Question:


I thought Alice packs were really heavy? Is this a new lightweight model? What is the weight and Cubic inches

 

[Karl5]

Generally yes. When you are felling wood you are cutting trees that are much larger than you would handle in a survival situation. True double bit felling axes are actually so focused that they are near useless as general working axes because the bit is both too narrow and far too long. They are made simply to clear out wood after a relief cut has been made with a saw and thus there is no concern on binding. You can't use them for direct notching. They are also usually optomized for a specific wood type and a survival/wood craft axe would likely be more general.

Couldn't agree more!
That's why I go for the "general purpose axe" when out and about in the woods.

/ Karl

 

[akennedy73]

Question:


I thought Alice packs were really heavy? Is this a new lightweight model? What is the weight and Cubic inches

I'm confused about this too - my understanding was that Alice packs are pretty heavy which is why most hikers don't use them (myself included).

 

[plattj1]

I read all 6 pages of this thread, it is very informative. After 40 years of camping and hiking experience I have to agree with Halcon.

1. I will never buy a knife and regrind it, no one but a knife freak does that kind of stuff. I buy it and use it, if it is not right I get rid of it. Most of the great performance talked about comes from highly altered and maintained big choppers. My poor forest axe gets a quick filing every so often and still performs great.
2. Hammering and splitting are important tasks and the hatchet does them better.
3. A folding saw is a safe, fast and quiet way to get through most cutting tasks.

I think it is all kind of a moot point anyway. If you have to you can skin and quarter game with a sharp hatchet. If you have to you can split firewood with a knife. It is all about what you prefer to work with and what you do the most. I prefer a hatchet, small knife and a folding saw. If I were in the jungle I am sure I would change my mind pretty quickly.

I did try building a shelter with a big knife recently and it was great. I also tried to split wood and it was awful. For me in the areas I frequent the hammering/splitting part is more important, if I were in an area of thick foliage and needed to trailblaze I am sure I would think differently.

 

[hollowdweller]

For me in the areas I frequent the hammering/splitting part is more important, if I were in an area of thick foliage and needed to trailblaze I am sure I would think differently.

That's me. When I am backpacking, which was initially the focus of the original question the chopping part is the most important along with weight and the hatchet is the best.

When I am home trail clearing is important and I usually have a khukuri.:thumbup:

For sure if I was in the jungle or something a machete would probably come into play

 

[Tikirocker]

Question:


I thought Alice packs were really heavy? Is this a new lightweight model? What is the weight and Cubic inches

Maybe the US designed ones are, I can't comment on those. The Australian Military packs have two types of Alice Frames - a standard steel frame and a light weight aluminium frame. I use the latter - the pack itself when empty isn't that heavy but it holds a great deal and has many extremely useful pouches, pockets and long pockets with which to divvy up my gear.

There are many different sizes and styles of Alice Packs for the Army in Australia mine is the big 85-90 litre job but I had it heavily packed in Spain - I was carrying heavy photographic equipment + a tripod + all my clothes and personal effects and while it was heavy I was able to move very fast with the Alice frame with relative comfort given the weight I was packing!

The main thing to have is the sternum strap!!!!!! This more than ANY other feature was a comfort saver extraordinaire! I can't answer for weight and cubic inches since they are all different depending on which one you buy. I have been very happy with mine and after a lot of hard yakka in Spain and many trips within the Aussie outback ( Nullarbor Plain! ) it's still not got any rips or marks on it.

The key thing to consider with any pack you choose also, especially in terms of the bug out - as far as I am concerned - is that if your pack becomes your home you want your home and what holds the contents of it to be as solid, rugged and hardy as possible. For these reasons I chose the Auscam Alice system ... sure, there may be lighter packs out there but to my mind the one I have chosen has also been chosen by my countries Military and it has served me without failure - I continue to use it without hesitation.

 

[hollowdweller]

Maybe the US designed ones are, I can't comment on those.

How about commenting on yours. Surely if you are as fanatical about carrying extra weight you know your pack weight right?

 

[Tikirocker]

How about commenting on yours. Surely if you are as fanatical about carrying extra weight you know your pack weight right?

The two CAN be mutually exclusive ... I haven't weighed my pack empty. I chose a system for my pack based on weight ( sure, but this was by feel not maths! ) - rugged utility and comfort - but nobody has weights ( not when I was buying ) for Auscam packs when you buy them. You buy them based on utility and then WHAT you pack determines the overall weight. Your assumption here is that I was fanatical about the weight of my pack - no - I am fanatical about WHAT goes into my pack. My pack choice was non negotiable in terms of a starting weight - I chose a solid system that I knew would hold and protect my bug out gear without compromise - it also happens not to be overly heavy when empty + added to the Alice Frame weight.

Would you LIKE me to try and weigh it for you?

 

[hollowdweller]

That's ok. Just you said:

You hit the nail on the head ... it gets down to ounces ... and even milligrams of weight when you are hitting the wilderness with a pack - like I showed above. If I need to cut something I would use a wire saw over an axe or hatchet without thinking - the space and use issue is beyond vital as you know. I have my personal kit very carefully thought out based on my hiking experiences - no fat on the bone my friend.

So I just figured if you were so concerned about a 10 oz to 1 lb hatchet being in a pack you'd know what your pack weight was.

 

[Tikirocker]

That's ok. I just figured if you were so concerned about a 10 oz to 1 lb hatchet being in a pack you'd know what your pack weight was.

I am still concerned about a hatchet not just because of weight but also as I said before due to the size and space it occupies in my pack - I can get the same job done with something that fits into a spectacle case, know what I mean?

The pack is the most important starting point ... your container is KEY ... I was happy to make any sacrifice in terms of weight for the ruggedness and utility of the Alice Pack ... It's what goes into it that determines how much weight you carry. Within the space and weight that a small hatchet or axe occupies I could fit more water or food or other VITAL supplies and still be able to cut and saw.

EDIT - My assessment of ounces and those dreaded milligrams is by feel and not scientific calculation - strictly body maths for me!

 

[hollowdweller]

I am still concerned about a hatchet not just because of weight but also as I said before due to the size and space it occupies in my pack - I can get the same job done with something that fits into a spectacle case, know what I mean?

Actually you can carry a hatchet on the outside of your pack, so you are not losing any space plus you gain the ability to split wood or hack small branches with one hand over the saw which requires 2 hands.

Also if you ditch the heavy Alice pack you can actually get something like a Mountainsmith internal or something that would give you about 20% more space and about 10% less weight.

 

[Outdoors]

Milsurp packs have many good attributes - durability and price are among the top. Light weight is not one of these attributes - I'd imagine it's not part of the design parameters.

I gave my us alice pack (alum frame) up after deciding I could get a commercial pack that weighed alot less and carried larger loads. Alice packs are also set up to garry standard mil gear, most of which is component based and clips on the outside of the pack. These thihgs also tend to be designed for field durability rather than light weight.

Pat

Hah - Hollow said the same thing while I was typing! Thanks, Hollow

P.

 

[hollowdweller]

Milsurp packs have many good attributes - durability and price are among the top. Light weight is not one of these attributes - I'd imagine it's not part of the design parameters.
Pat

I have a Camelback Hawg pack. It's a military style pack. I mainly use it for daypacking. My wife has a Mountainsmith day pack w/hydration also. The Mountainsmith is probably half the weight of the Camelback, more comfortable actually and has about the same capacity. Also the Mountainsmith seems to have enough pockets, and external points to connect gear that the Camelback doesn't even really beat it there.